i think saurfang was just ruined for me

General Discussion
so i started reading the novella "a good war" (spoilers btw) and something is in there that justifies why i and many others have been mad at saurfang.

on page 8, there is a conversation between sylvanas and saurfang. sylvanas asks saurfang how he would destroy stormwind if she asked him to do it today. saurfangs first thought was "is this a joke" and his second thought, word for word quote here, is "I would challenge you to a mak’gora, because you would have lost your mind".

so getting asked to destroy stormwind is good enough reason for honorable combat BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!

now granted, i'm not that far in and maybe this gets covered later in the novella. this just felt like the writers acknowledging what many lore buffs have been saying and then spat in our faces.
08/06/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Axeperson
so i started reading the novella "a good war" (spoilers btw) and something is in there that justifies why i and many others have been mad at saurfang.

on page 8, there is a conversation between sylvanas and saurfang. sylvanas asks saurfang how he would destroy stormwind if she asked him to do it today. saurfangs first thought was "is this a joke" and his second thought, word for word quote here, is "I would challenge you to a mak’gora, because you would have lost your mind".

so getting asked to destroy stormwind is good enough reason for honorable combat BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!

now granted, i'm not that far in and maybe this gets covered later in the novella. this just felt like the writers acknowledging what many lore buffs have been saying and then spat in our faces.


What happens in the novellas and in-game so far feels like I'm reading two different stories with very different characters honestly
08/06/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Axeperson
BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!


You do realize those things weren't planned beforehand, yeah? He objects greatly the burning of the tree, and we'll learn his other reaction tomorrow.

You should also probably read the rest before coming to any judgements.
08/06/2018 08:02 PMPosted by Hugal
08/06/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Axeperson
BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!


You do realize those things weren't planned beforehand, yeah? He objects greatly the burning of the tree, and we'll learn his other reaction tomorrow.

You should also probably read the rest before coming to any judgements.


doesn't matter. apparently having an open and honorable war with stormwind is deserving of mak'gora but not killing thousands upon thousands of innocents on a whim.

at least with sylvanas's writing i can mostly get behind her. the only thing i've hated so far is her burning teldrassil on a whim because she couldn't make an elf get mad.
If you had kept reading, you would realize why he said that. Stormwind would be damn near impossible to take and he says it would take at least a thousand victories to even start to think about hitting up Stormwind, hence the reason he said he would have challenged her to mak'gora because she would have to be insane to try that straight up.
What kind of... person.... doesn't want to destroy the enemies main city.... seems like he's horrible at war.

08/06/2018 08:10 PMPosted by Saryaan
If you had kept reading, you would realize why he said that. Stormwind would be damn near impossible to take and he says it would take at least a thousand victories to even start to think about hitting up Stormwind, hence the reason he said he would have challenged her to mak'gora because she would have to be insane to try that straight up.


It's fallen before, it can fall again.
Wait. Didn't he already sack Stormwind in the First War?
08/06/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Axeperson
so getting asked to destroy stormwind is good enough reason for honorable combat BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!
sshhhhhhh dont question.

08/06/2018 08:15 PMPosted by Whysilyn
Wait. Didn't he already sack Stormwind in the First War?
yes he did, he also killed civilians in stormwind as they begged for mercy
08/06/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Axeperson
so i started reading the novella "a good war" (spoilers btw) and something is in there that justifies why i and many others have been mad at saurfang.

on page 8, there is a conversation between sylvanas and saurfang. sylvanas asks saurfang how he would destroy stormwind if she asked him to do it today. saurfangs first thought was "is this a joke" and his second thought, word for word quote here, is "I would challenge you to a mak’gora, because you would have lost your mind".

so getting asked to destroy stormwind is good enough reason for honorable combat BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!

now granted, i'm not that far in and maybe this gets covered later in the novella. this just felt like the writers acknowledging what many lore buffs have been saying and then spat in our faces.


It seems you got it all wrong. The reason He says He would challange Sylvanas not because destroying Stormwind or honor. It is because It would be a suicide for Horde try it.

Saurfang is a good tactician and war veteran. He is very experienced and He knows that trying to take over Stormwind would be a fatal mistake. This is why He says He would try to stop Sylvanas because that action would destroy not Stormwind but the Horde itself.

The reason He did not object to attack on NE lands is because it was actually a sound plan from the beginning. The goal was to occupy NE lands and make Horde lands more secure. Tree burning wasn't planned.(or it was planned but noone except Sylvanas knew)

He clearly challenges Sylvanas and goes against her burning the Tree. Old Soldier's also shows this.

People need to understand that Saurfang is a soldier and He has no problem fighting the Alliance if it is necessary or will benefit the Horde. He will fight with Honor but He is not a pessimist.
08/06/2018 08:06 PMPosted by Axeperson
<span class="truncated">...</span>

You do realize those things weren't planned beforehand, yeah? He objects greatly the burning of the tree, and we'll learn his other reaction tomorrow.

You should also probably read the rest before coming to any judgements.


doesn't matter. apparently having an open and honorable war with stormwind is deserving of mak'gora but not killing thousands upon thousands of innocents on a whim.

at least with sylvanas's writing i can mostly get behind her. the only thing i've hated so far is her burning teldrassil on a whim because she couldn't make an elf get mad.


He would challenge her because he KNOWS to march on Stormwind first would have been insane, not because it was a war with the alliance. Read the rest of their planning carefully, he was assuming she meant to march on sw as a FIRST ATTACK; which as he noted would have been madness. That is what he would have fought her over.

He is no really great person, he was fed the narrative about Genn whispering into Anduin's ear by Sylvanas and (not too innacurate an assumption) came to a similar conclusion- that war would happen. He NEVER objected to a war with the alliance, only a plan that would be suicidal to the horde. It is only when Sylvanas acts without honor DURING THE WAR, that he begins to act the way we have seen in cinematics and such.

Again, he is not some amazing person; much better than sylvanas for sure, but he also disregarded Anduin completely as a factor (which regardless of faction you have to admit, the writing has been steering super hard, like always, for him to try and create peace. So without instigating actions....) to mitigate Genn.
08/06/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Axeperson
so i started reading the novella "a good war" (spoilers btw) and something is in there that justifies why i and many others have been mad at saurfang.

on page 8, there is a conversation between sylvanas and saurfang. sylvanas asks saurfang how he would destroy stormwind if she asked him to do it today. saurfangs first thought was "is this a joke" and his second thought, word for word quote here, is "I would challenge you to a mak’gora, because you would have lost your mind".

so getting asked to destroy stormwind is good enough reason for honorable combat BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!

now granted, i'm not that far in and maybe this gets covered later in the novella. this just felt like the writers acknowledging what many lore buffs have been saying and then spat in our faces.


your premise is based on the idea any horde civilization wants to be at War forever. For a Death knight? sure, for the Forsaken? sure but for the other races that make up the horde? no.

look at the Frostwolf clan or any group within the horde outside of the Forsaken, they would much rather carve out a plot of fertile land and defend it than fight a 1-5-10-20-50 year War.

The Motivations for the player is we want constant conflict so we have something to do, the motivations for the actual denizens of Warcraft however are much different, Sylvannas acts like a Player character if they were input into the game and made Warchief. She seeks an unrealistic level of conflict to achieve ends that she even believes cannot be attained.

If a horde character said "we need food were starving" Sylvannas response would be "if we kill all the alliance on the planet we will have all the food to ourselves" now as the player this response is perfect, but the actual reaction of someone living in that world would be much different because they would worry about death? there family? there ability to survive day to day on this path to total world domination? and this is were someone would say sylvanas responses dont make sense in the context of an actual Warcraft character (and not the warcraft player character).

Yes Sylvannas is basically a player character made Warchief for a day, shes not worried about revolt due to her actions (horde druids, panadaren, Nightborne, Highmountain tauren), shes not worried about actually feeding the horde in the immediate future (the whole reason for WSG and horde raids on ashenvale), shes not worried about sending horde's of her own subjects to pointless deaths.
08/06/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Axeperson
BUT NOT BURNING TELDRASSIL OR HOW SYLVANAS ACTS AT THE SIEGE OF UNDERCITY?!


Saurfang wants to kill Sylvanas, but recognizes the Alliance is now an existential threat for the Horde. Attacking her would doom his faction.
Bleh, empty threats as always for Saurfang, he did the same with Garrosh, where was he when everything was burning?

The only one who had the guts in the horde was Cairne. The only good leader that faction ever had.
Saurfang still represents the core Horde beliefs, we are not afraid to fight the alliance out of necessity or if it would aid the Horde in one area, like securing our lands.

It is not that we don't want to fight, we just don't want to fight pointless wars or wars that the cost to our beliefs is too high. That is one thing those telling us to faction change forgot to think about. Even if we side with Saurfang, we are still Horde, we will still fight alliance as they come. Anything dark or "evil" should be just the cost of war and, for ones like me at least, decisions like burning the tree need to be show as a tactical move and not a "I'll do it just because I can".
08/06/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Averyx
Bleh, empty threats as always for Saurfang, he did the same with Garrosh, where was he when everything was burning?

The only one who had the guts in the horde was Cairne. The only good leader that faction ever had.


do you not remember where we find Saurfang in Siege of Orgrimmar? what condition he was in?

and what he was likely there to do before we actually catch upto him? he was litterally fighting his way to garrosh himself while the horde/alliance finally catch up to him witht he help of an entire army/rebel force.
08/06/2018 09:28 PMPosted by Doomgard
do you not remember where we find Saurfang in Siege of Orgrimmar? what condition he was in?

and what he was likely there to do before we actually catch upto him? he was litterally fighting his way to garrosh himself while the horde/alliance finally catch up to him witht he help of an entire army/rebel force.


Yeah, Siege of Orgrimmar, which was years after Garrosh took the mantle and Garrosh had been doing crap LONG before Siege.
08/06/2018 09:28 PMPosted by Doomgard
do you not remember where we find Saurfang in Siege of Orgrimmar? what condition he was in?

and what he was likely there to do before we actually catch upto him? he was litterally fighting his way to garrosh himself while the horde/alliance finally catch up to him witht he help of an entire army/rebel force.


Yeah, Siege of Orgrimmar, which was years after Garrosh took the mantle and Garrosh had been doing crap LONG before Siege.


from Vanilla to Legion has only been 7-8 years in case you didnt know.
08/06/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Mardathkul
It's fallen before, it can fall again.
Stormwind fell when it stood alone. Stormwind is more fortified than ever, bigger than ever, and has more allies than ever.
08/06/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Thera
He clearly challenges Sylvanas and goes against her burning the Tree. Old Soldier's also shows this.


And what the cinematic did not show but the "Good War" novella does is...

SPOILERS!

...that the burning of the Tree happens because of Saurfangs failure to kill Malfurion. If he had stayed on task, taken Malfurion's head, Teladrassil would be occupied by now and not a pile of ash. And he knows this, and this is why he feels as he does in the cinematic.
08/06/2018 09:46 PMPosted by Teilvia
08/06/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Mardathkul
It's fallen before, it can fall again.
Stormwind fell when it stood alone. Stormwind is more fortified than ever, bigger than ever, and has more allies than ever.


At the time it was also only the orcs, and most were warriors. So, no magic, no subterfuge, etc.

If they really wanted to, they could crack stormwind. Honestly, I'm just saying anyone who wouldn't at least think of TRYING doesn't deserve to be horde.

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