What REALLY happened to the "civilians" in Astrannar.

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08/06/2018 08:27 PMPosted by Verdre
08/06/2018 07:55 PMPosted by Lockopener
Feels kinda really forced for no reason.


The novellas however CONTRADICT what Alliance players see. You arrive, dead bodies everywhere, and there are Forsaken Rogues running around.

So we have a matter of IN GAME telling one story, and the novellas presenting a completely different story.


I always felt from the first day that one story was "what they want us to see" and the other story was what was actually happening.

The reason I felt it was the Horde side that was happening was because how you run back and forth between places and how the night elves are losing ground, steadily retreating farther into Dark Shore.

When you are at Astranaar with Saurfang, there is no sign of Forsaken assassins running around or bodies everywhere. It just looked like they had taken over an emptied village as a foothold, but as Alliance it is a massacre. Then Summermoon even says they tried to lay a trap for the Horde but it failed. But, when you are there as Horde both times there is no sign of this trap.

I felt like something was missing either between the time you meet Saurfang there or after he leaves, I just couldn't put my finger on it. And, when you first leave Astranaar as Alliance, it lines up with when you leave Saurfang to go to Sylvanas / Malfurion and dealing with the wisp wall. They clearly are not there at the same time, but it seems that way in the game.
08/06/2018 08:27 PMPosted by Verdre
08/06/2018 07:55 PMPosted by Lockopener
Feels kinda really forced for no reason.


The novellas however CONTRADICT what Alliance players see. You arrive, dead bodies everywhere, and there are Forsaken Rogues running around.

So we have a matter of IN GAME telling one story, and the novellas presenting a completely different story.


Exactly. While Delaryn planted the bodies according to the Novellas when the Alliance Champion arrives there would be NO Forsaken Rogues there. They would've all been with Sylvanas and Saurfang at Zoram'gar Outpost. As far as the Horde was concerned there was NO reason for them to leave soldiers behind to guard an empty city. But, then again, WHY did Delaryn return to Astranaar after the Horde left?

The Alliance part of the quest chain (yes, I completed it on my Alliance toon) makes it seem like Delaryn abandoned Malfurion and returned to Astranaar during the middle of a battle. As in the Novellas Malfurion ordered the other Night Elves to retreat to Darkshore while he covered their retreat so she SHOULD have beat him to Darkshore, not followed him there.
08/06/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Dyra
So Delaryn is just as crafty as Sylvanas and yet Delaryn dies and none of this is mentioned in the game itself while we see what Sylvanas does. So most latch onto Sylvanas being evil while not even knowing about what Delaryn did.

That's pretty lopsided by Blizzard. Make the Horde look evil in the game but have the Alliance with someone potentially just as bad only seen in the novella which most players aren't even going to read or even hear about.

Thing is, we don't even really know if Delaryn's really dead. We thought Kael'thas was dead after beating him in The Eye. We thought Illidan was dead, too. Remember the uproar when people thought Anduin died when Garrosh crushed him under the bell? Alliance never see Delaryn's dead body and she's still giving the world quest dialogue after Teldrassil burns rather than shifting it to Tyrande or someone else. Possible much like Malfurion she's just gravely injured and recovering somewhere.

So, are we going to see a repeat of Cordana then and Delaryn is a dungeon boss in 8.1?


The difference between the two however, is that Delaryn felt remorse for doing what she did. Also, she doesn't go around killing living things around a temple because her sister refused to murder someone in the middle of a trial. A more egregious act would be the portion in a good war where druids and mages tortured their victims. Remember, the horde struck down a good portion (likely 33-50%) of the sentinels stationed in the zone BEFORE anything we saw in game happened; to save not only her people but their lands (which arguably are important I.E a world tree) she did something many would find disgusting, but honestly the morality behind it is incredibly different.

While it was disgusting, and few would likely disagree, intent and remorse or the lack thereof are important factors.
Why do they insist on keeping all of the interesting parts of their story outside of the game, where most players will never see it?

Why the eff am I screwing around with Furbolgs that nobody cares about instead of staging corpses and launching ambushes?
08/06/2018 08:32 PMPosted by Xilexa
When you are at Astranaar with Saurfang, there is no sign of Forsaken assassins running around or bodies everywhere. It just looked like they had taken over an emptied village as a foothold, but as Alliance it is a massacre.


Which also makes no sense, because before that (on my Horde character) we went around poisoning practically every living elf in Astranaar. There's no way it shouldn't be filled with poisoned corpses.
08/06/2018 08:42 PMPosted by Auntehbelz
08/06/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Dyra
So Delaryn is just as crafty as Sylvanas and yet Delaryn dies and none of this is mentioned in the game itself while we see what Sylvanas does. So most latch onto Sylvanas being evil while not even knowing about what Delaryn did.

That's pretty lopsided by Blizzard. Make the Horde look evil in the game but have the Alliance with someone potentially just as bad only seen in the novella which most players aren't even going to read or even hear about.

Thing is, we don't even really know if Delaryn's really dead. We thought Kael'thas was dead after beating him in The Eye. We thought Illidan was dead, too. Remember the uproar when people thought Anduin died when Garrosh crushed him under the bell? Alliance never see Delaryn's dead body and she's still giving the world quest dialogue after Teldrassil burns rather than shifting it to Tyrande or someone else. Possible much like Malfurion she's just gravely injured and recovering somewhere.

So, are we going to see a repeat of Cordana then and Delaryn is a dungeon boss in 8.1?


The difference between the two however, is that Delaryn felt remorse for doing what she did. Also, she doesn't go around killing living things around a temple because her sister refused to murder someone in the middle of a trial. A more egregious act would be the portion in a good war where druids and mages tortured their victims. Remember, the horde struck down a good portion (likely 33-50%) of the sentinels stationed in the zone BEFORE anything we saw in game happened; to save not only her people but their lands (which arguably are important I.E a world tree) she did something many would find disgusting, but honestly the morality behind it is incredibly different.

While it was disgusting, and few would likely disagree, intent and remorse or the lack thereof are important factors.


You're being lied to and tricked, both as a night elf and as a paying player at this point.

Who !@#$in cares about sylvanas right now, her morality is not the subject. Most people in this particular thread are in agreement she is a d-bag anyway.

This thread is about the alliance being tricked. And half the crazy crap on the forum being a direct result of it.

It's almost af if they are doing it as their way of hyping BFA this time. Like the good 'ol "any publicity is good publicity" philosophy. Except its producing a lot of angry players/customers who can't seem to make sense of any of it.

The whole, "this evil is ok because it was inflicted to someone evil" is getting old too. You can't have that cake and eat it too, two evils have never a paladin made...
08/06/2018 08:45 PMPosted by Airc
08/06/2018 08:32 PMPosted by Xilexa
When you are at Astranaar with Saurfang, there is no sign of Forsaken assassins running around or bodies everywhere. It just looked like they had taken over an emptied village as a foothold, but as Alliance it is a massacre.


Which also makes no sense, because before that (on my Horde character) we went around poisoning practically every living elf in Astranaar. There's no way it shouldn't be filled with poisoned corpses.


Ah, but if you only kill 10 guards it is much easier to move 10 guards than all of the bodies from the entire village. So, if the "cannon" is that you only kill a handful of guards stationed there, it's easy for an army to move those to the side.
How delightfully clever. If only the plan worked.

(And fwiw if you're thinking "desecrating" corpses is on the level of genocide, seek help.)
08/06/2018 08:45 PMPosted by Airc
Which also makes no sense, because before that (on my Horde character) we went around poisoning practically every living elf in Astranaar. There's no way it shouldn't be filled with poisoned corpses.


Exactly. I did it on both sides. Because I heard there were discrepancies.

And the overall feeling I got for the entire story (after having done both sides) was this. The Horde went through and did their damage. The Alliance arrived a couple hours later to do clean up.

There were discrepancies. After you remove the guards, the town is covered in smoke. You briefly see it after that, with a couple buildings burning. But no signs of any survivors.

When Alliance arrives, bodies everywhere and Forsaken Assassins going on a killing spree.

It really sounds like two different teams wrote the quests and never stopped to make sure the two stories MESHED.

And the novellas don't help because they further muddy the water with yet ANOTHER story of what happened.
Whoa, wait a minute who are these "Forsaken Rogue's" in Astrannar?

When you conquer Astrannar I remember Saurfang making a comment about how he has to find out who these "Rogue's" were who cleared out Astrannar. I forget the exact dialogue I have to do the scenario again.

What I don't understand is why are a group of lone rogue's taking action without their commander's instructions ?

Wasn't Saurfang commanding the main force? Why are lone soldiers acting without orders and without Saurfang's knowledge of who they even are?

Maybe I missed some crucial info or I'm forgetting something but this seems kinda fishy?
08/06/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Severitas
How delightfully clever. If only the plan worked.

(And fwiw if you're thinking "desecrating" corpses is on the level of genocide, seek help.)


Evil and moral specifically require a deity to define each. Else we're talking about ethics.

Desecrating bodies such that the spirit is denied an afterlife is a thing that is considered evil. It's an opposition of the goal which is the desirable afterlife.

If you'r deity wants you to exterminate a whole race or other religion then it might be moral to commit genocide...You might be put in hell for even opposing it.

We pretty much have all those basses covered on earth with our spread of religions.
08/06/2018 09:04 PMPosted by Madtop
Whoa, wait a minute who are these "Forsaken Rogue's" in Astrannar?


THAT is a discrepancy. They're only present on Alliance side. There was NO mention of them on Horde side. And I did BOTH sides.

In short, you now have THREE stories on what happened. The Horde side. The Alliance side. The Novellas. Blizzard tries to insist they're all true. Somewhere between the three is the real story.

And this is the problem with the entire quest chain. There are discrepancies all over the place. The Novellas aren't helping and are only muddying the waters.

It's obvious the Alliance shows up AFTER the Horde has moved past. They're seeing the damage that has already been done.
08/06/2018 08:43 PMPosted by Kitharis
Why do they insist on keeping all of the interesting parts of their story outside of the game, where most players will never see it?


This is my question and it makes me madder at Blizzard. I mean it explains the difference in story, but it's still something that could have been planted as a bit of lore (EG an item that could be looted off Delaryn that's.. say her personal journal that then heavily implies she had something to do with the "civilian" corpses in astranaar.
08/06/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Shyeer
08/06/2018 08:43 PMPosted by Kitharis
Why do they insist on keeping all of the interesting parts of their story outside of the game, where most players will never see it?


This is my question and it makes me madder at Blizzard. I mean it explains the difference in story, but it's still something that could have been planted as a bit of lore (EG an item that could be looted off Delaryn that's.. say her personal journal that then heavily implies she had something to do with the "civilian" corpses in astranaar.


I think they sort of gave themselves permission to do it because the Warcraft story as a whole is spread out over several different works well before WoW even came out.

So since you would have to go play the old warcrafts and probably read a few warcraft comics/books to even catch up to where WoW starts, it didn't seem like a big leap to keep the status quo.
08/06/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Felhellsing
08/06/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Severitas
How delightfully clever. If only the plan worked.

(And fwiw if you're thinking "desecrating" corpses is on the level of genocide, seek help.)


Evil and moral specifically require a deity to define each. Else we're talking about ethics.

Desecrating bodies such that the spirit is denied an afterlife is a thing that is considered evil. It's an opposition of the goal which is the desirable afterlife.

If you'r deity wants you to exterminate a whole race or other religion then it might be moral to commit genocide...You might be put in hell for even opposing it.

We pretty much have all those basses covered on earth with our spread of religions.


You're acting as if a Death Knight strolled in and trapped their souls in their blade or something. Get a grip, they changed some clothes, and the dead still became wisps, meaning their spirits were free.

EDIT: Also, lol @ requiring a deity to define good, evil, and morality.
08/06/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Dyra
So Delaryn is just as crafty as Sylvanas and yet Delaryn dies and none of this is mentioned in the game itself while we see what Sylvanas does. So most latch onto Sylvanas being evil while not even knowing about what Delaryn did.


Seriously, they could have made this so much better. Intentionally keeping out details because of laziness is bothering me. Hell, an extra dialogue or two would have made it so much better. For example, Nelfs do some bad things but in game "..I don't want to hurt you!"
08/06/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Verdre
08/06/2018 09:04 PMPosted by Madtop
Whoa, wait a minute who are these "Forsaken Rogue's" in Astrannar?


THAT is a discrepancy. They're only present on Alliance side. There was NO mention of them on Horde side. And I did BOTH sides.

In short, you now have THREE stories on what happened. The Horde side. The Alliance side. The Novellas. Blizzard tries to insist they're all true. Somewhere between the three is the real story.

And this is the problem with the entire quest chain. There are discrepancies all over the place. The Novellas aren't helping and are only muddying the waters.

It's obvious the Alliance shows up AFTER the Horde has moved past. They're seeing the damage that has already been done.


This whole thing seems like a convoluted mess but it's definitely makes things interesting I wonder if it's just mistakes by the writers, or interference from our old god pals.
08/06/2018 07:18 PMPosted by Mcorkin
Wow.
That's two strikes for Delaryn.
I am glad she got a terrible death.

say it with me alliance players.
Irony.


In Peter Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien's Battle for Helms Deep King Théoden of Rohan has males as you as what appears to be 12 if not younger outfitted with armor, and armed.

For some reason you expect us to care that a Kaldorei commander marshalled forces. Or try to pin some moral undertone like they were "conscripted", as if that could have been a thing I care about for the Kaldorei.

You're glad she "died a terrible death"? C'mon.
Mostly bothers me how much things in game don't match up with the novella.

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