My Casual 3 night a week guild just spent an hour arguing over loot because of the new system.

General Discussion
Personal loot was only a matter of time. The more and more Blizzard pushes cross realm grouping crap in our faces and the 10 difficulties of raiding.

People need to pug, Blizzard doesn't want their precious casual pug raiders to go without loot, so lets take any options away from the people who raid as a guild and with their friends and force personal loot on them too.

Such a terrible system, so much for trading upgrades to people who need it more or gearing out the players that make the rest of the runs easier.
If it's so casual, why care who gets gear?
08/08/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Mursh
Perhaps they should do both.

Put Master Looter back in. But keep it so it can only be used if
every party member is from the same guild. If even ONE party
member is not a guild member. ML cant be used.

Then, make it so Personal Loot is not able to be traded.
I like that idea. It means we won't be bringing trials into progression.
08/08/2018 09:20 PMPosted by Wraivex
Anyone with half a brain knew the new system was going to cause more drama than any tiny amount of random and barely present "abuse" might have been fixed.

It takes the ability away from the players to come to a consenting agreement amongst themselves to deal with loot in an efficient and just manner, to help alleviate the vagaries of pure chance that is going to leave some members without loot for long periods of time while showering others with upgrades - the way an EPGP system worked. It's only a matter of time.


It puts the power to manage loot solely in the hands of the person who got the loot and not some loot council that's powertripping or playing favorites. The drama right now is being caused by people who haven't accepted their opinion of where loot should go means jack squat. Don't worry, they'll adjust to the status quo when they realize they're not important and no one cares what they think.
08/08/2018 10:00 PMPosted by Sanslock
a 3 night casual guild??? 3 night,....casual guild, one of these things is not like the other.
08/08/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Althasar
Before you go off saying "Waa selfish!" Answer me this: How is a guild supposed to progress and become stronger if complete strangers from other realms are constantly leeching piece after piece of loot from you guild?

I like how you call them leeches that take your gear...yet employ them to help you "progress" and get the damn gear lol. That's your guild leeching off PUGS.
If your guild is arguing about gear now its time to be concerned. I see people making arguments about loot rules and gearing people up, but there is no gearing up to do right now, we'll be getting green upgrades in less then a week. Honestly however I can clearly see inbound conflicts of interest when bfa starts and people want to keep the gear that the game gives them.
08/08/2018 07:43 PMPosted by Thandin
With the changes to master looter from personal loot, we just spent a whole night talking about loot drama, because loot in a raid isn't personal, it's the guilds, a guild that wants to push farther than heroic needs to place loot where it will do the best for the guild. This is the most drama we've ever had in the 18 months I've been in. Loot was so much simpler with Master looter. Please fix it. Either make it so that no loot is tradeable to prevent drama, or give us master looter back.

this is the attitude that a lot of people hate. "The loot doesnt belong to you it belongs to the guild". Nonsense, If you showed up to the raid and did what you were supposed to and you got something off of personal loot, you earned it.
Selfish, that's the first thing I think when I read your post.

My guild is raiding causal. We raid only two nights a week, 7-ish hours total, and no farther than heroic. Not once have we used Master Loot, and not once have we had any kind of loot drama. We've had to pull in people from LFG as well. If you get a drop it's yours to keep, including those that are not guildies. If you don't need it we put it up for roll -- main spec over off spec. If the random person wins, they get the loot. My guild understands that everyone deserves a chance since everyone is putting in the work, and that helping one person can help the whole raid. Including the randoms we pick up as they sometimes will come back and help again.
The only thing we do call out are people that get over greedy with claiming loot, which we don't have. Most of the time, when things go to roll, the winner will ask the others who gets the bigger upgrade out of it and give it to them. Their win, their choice, and no one worries about it. I guess my guild is a unicorn or something when it comes to loot, but, so far, we have been pretty successful in what we set out to do.
08/08/2018 10:10 PMPosted by Hoofdini
according to blizz, it does NOT belong to the guild, it belongs to the person it dropped for.

According to Blizz? As if they never contradict themselves...

How Blizz treats Bonus Rolled loot Vs Personal Loot completely contradicts that argument. Bonus roll loot is yours and no one elses, PL loot... not so much.

You can not trade Bonus rolled loot under any circumstances.

You can trade Personal Loot but only to other members of your group.

According to Blizzard. No one but you is eligible to receive your Bonus Rolled loot. But the group as a whole is certified eligible for any loot that drops off a boss you killed together.

You can't give loot to players that were not part of your group.
08/08/2018 11:12 PMPosted by Viridina
08/08/2018 09:47 PMPosted by Dufas
people said this would happen as soon as it was known about the loot change. everyone said it wouldnt and yet here it is, and when the new raid tier opens it will be more tears again

forgot to mention, if they really wanted it to be personal loot it would not be tradeable, just sayin.

almost like they wanted it to be tradeable hmmm

They tried to find a middle ground for all involved but you wouldnt know anything about middle ground would you hmm?

That simply isn't true. This isn't a middle ground. It is a direct inheritance from LFR and LFD being forced onto everyone. Even organized groups who traditionally have been free to choose whatever loot rules they were most happy using.

If we remember history.
>Cata release LFR loot was tradeable.
It was a disaster and quickly made untradeable.
> MoP introduces PL in LFR. Loot still untradeable.
>WoD introduces PL in LFD. Initially untradeable. Players complained en mass and we got tradeable loot with the "can't trade ilvl upgrades" rule.
>Keeping track now; LFR loot had been kept untradeable all the way up to Legion. Players were constantly complaining that they were not able to trade loot when they want to.

Now guilds and organized groups are voicing those exact same complaints about not being able to trade loot when they want to.
The current situation is that now we have PL being used outside of both LFD and LFR, but with the same trade restrictions created with those two environments in mind. Players can't trade loot like they could before and many don't like that.

This isn't a middle ground. This is just them bluntly applying the rules used in random queueable content to all groups, even player organized Guild groups. Which certainly don't deserve to be treated same as an LFD creation.
08/08/2018 09:27 PMPosted by Kerlista

That statement alone is why personal loot was invented. Loot belongs to those who won it not to guild. Guilds like yours is why raids finder is a huge success.

Until you understand that. Your are lost.

Wrong attitude imho. No one needs raiding gear other than raiders. You can't do the raid by yourself (until you outgrow it). While you are working in a group, each member needs to get gear in order to improve the team overall. In that regard, gear belongs to the raiding group and should be distributed throughout the raid, if at all possible. When I raided, my guild used Suicide Kings and this worked very well to distribute the loot fairly and to the people who most needed the gear improvements.

I don't raid anymore and haven't since Cata, but loot quibbling was pretty much unheard of in any group I raided with.

Ive said this before. I think the change was made to extend current content. This way you can't gear up people as fast as before, therefore slowing down raiders.

Either way. its a welcome chance. No more waiting for loot master to pass out gear. Simply enjoy the content.
1) sounds like a people problem, not a blizzard problem

2) also sounds like everyone wasn't on the same page regarding loot. Meaning the gm and/or officers never officially discussed anything about how loot will be handled going forward with their members prior to raiding.
The lack of simple trade for groups pushing progression is problematic. However its offset in my mind by the hilarity of whining loot councils and DKP hounds that just saw their "power" disappeared.
08/08/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Althasar
08/08/2018 07:47 PMPosted by Wariya
Looks like you had a lot of selfish players in your guild group.
Its your guild group that needs fixing.

PL just called them out for you :)

So in other words, you have no idea how a casual guild works. A casual guild will often, if not frequently, sub in people with LFG since not everyone can make it to the raid (Duh it's a casual guild). It is in the guild's best interest to make sure the dedicated raiders of the guild get the gear first since they're the ones that are going to be sticking around.

Before you go off saying "Waa selfish!" Answer me this: How is a guild supposed to progress and become stronger if complete strangers from other realms are constantly leeching piece after piece of loot from you guild?

I'm not suggesting subs shouldn't get any loot but it's fairly standard practice in casual guilds to let subs know that the dedicated raiders get first crack at loot.

Here's the thing though; this isn't selfish. It's FINE!

How do I know this? Because I have been in both a casual guild that has had to rely on subs AND I have also been a sub for other guilds and both experiences netted me easy gear.

Try and put yourself in the OP's shoes. How would you feel if you built a guild from the ground up and are trying to help push everyone through the content but for 4-5 bosses straight, your sub is siphoning loot off from you guild before vanishing, never to be seen again. Meanwhile, your guild is worse off because those pieces your sub got could have tremendously helped out your raid progression.

I would say that the sub tremendously helped the progression and is entitled to the loot that dropped for them.

If you need a sub then that sub is doing work and should reap rewards just the same as the guild that required the sub. Obviously if the sub is not there, then there is no progression which hurts the guild worse.
In breaking news: "Blizzard and Peeta unite to reduce abuse to PUGs in World of Warcraft." Sounds good to me. I understand the desire of full raid groups to be able to distribute gear--especially early in raid tiers--but that does not work when stuff like LFR exists. Maybe higher tiers should get to choose loot distribution options if they have a full guild run? Or perhaps higher difficulties should be exclusive to guolds period? I'm not sure what--or whether--there is a solution / a solution is needed.

Back in the day when I was in a guild for WotLK we used NBG rolls and each person was entitled to a chance at winning 1 piece per evening unless no one else needed what came up and that worked for us. But if the PL system is that you get it if it's an upgrade, but can trade it if it isn't (To be clear: not saying that is what it is; I'm saying IF that is what it is) that makes sense most of the time.

We don't want / need the same person getting 6 identical pairs of shoulders. But if RNGesus decides someone's getting a ring and a sword one evening, it also means they won't need that ring or sword if they get it again.

Essentially, people will either need to adapt or stop raiding. And I agree with those stating that the way PUG players are treated when added to a group can be disgusting and does justify the changes we have seen.

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