WW Affairs and Discussion

Monk
We're week two into the xpac and things still feel a little up in the air.

Swift Roundhouse kick Azerite trait was recently nerfed by what i hear from other forum posts to be about 33%. Can't say I'm too pleased with this turn of events considering it felt like a throwback to our Transfer the Power Artifact Trait from Legion and, quite frankly, Azerite traits feel like they should be one of the last thing Blizzard should be worrying about WW.

The main issue appears to be Karma. A lot of people are concerned that Karma deals too much of our damage from looking at sims and that Blizzard is balancing the rest of WW's dps around it. However, this is from looking at sims which assumes basically perfect karma use, which almost never happens. Personally, I think Karma should remain the same and that we should rotation abilities (RSK, FoF, BoK, TP, etc) buffed. While I agree that Karma is a huge % of our damage, i feel that it's only that way because our other abilities aren't as hard hitting. Karma has always been a pseudo trade off between more damage or living, and I don't think it should be taken into account when balancing WW damage. The good WWs will be able to make the most out of Karma, while others won't.

Touch of Death deals a lot of damage too, but I think people complain less about it because:
A. It is a purely offensive ability. The only decision making in using it is if you have a charge of SEF/Serenity and if FoF/RSK/and WDP are up.
B. It doesn't do as much damage as karma does in PvP, though it is great for killing lowbies (Was hunting down an arms warrior today and he ran into a 110-114 outlaw rogue. Karmaed the warrior and Touch of Deathed the rogue. Rogue killed the warrior for me and rogue got blasted by 40k touch of death and i barely even touched him.)

In other news, our rotation is still a far cry from what it was at the end of Legion, and even moreso than it was in Tomb. There's one Azerite trait (the TP one) that makes it better, but it just feels slow. Blizzard hasn't said a word about it, but I honestly feel that the cost of TP should be dropped to 40 or even 35 energy. Instead of roughly 15-16 chi/min (this is taking Fist of the White Tiger into account), we could have 19+ chi/min which could be a lot more resource to work with as well giving us less down time.

In PvP news. I really wish Blizzard would make better honor talents for us. Literally like 75% of our honor talents used to be baseline in some shape or form. Hell, even our Gladiator's Medallion used to be baseline for us in the form of Nimble Brew (That's right. WW used to have 2 trinkets). Fort Brew used to be baseline. Grapple Weapon used to be baseline. Yu'lon's Gift used to basically be baseline and worked on Roll AND FSK. Control the mists used to basically be baseline in the form of healing spheres and expel harm. TeB used to be baseline and not crap. Heavy Handed Strikes used to be baseline and also not crap. I can now say Eminence used to be baseline because Legion's default transcendence CD was a 3rd of what it is now. The only new PvP talent that i'd consider using over Control the Mists, Fort Brew, and Grapple Weapon is Disabling Reach. Frankly speaking, I'd like to see all of our old baseline stuff be made baseline again and have Blizzard think of some actual PvP talents for us. I quite enjoyed Rushing Tiger Palm and Double Dragon from Legion, but they got removed. So rip :/

Anyways, I kind of want to hear the community's thoughts on WW matters. It's only the 2nd week of the expansion and some aspect of WW has already been nerfed, so this should be an entertaining xpac. Lets hope Blizzard doesn't WoD it.
While I would likely agree I care about the damage ToD does less because it is a dps cooldown only, I think they could change it up so the damage it does isn't done up front all at once. Maybe have it so it turns into a medium lasting dot that ramps up in a way (because at this point I get less the feeling of an actual touch of death like it had before where it was usable in execute range.).

On ToK, I don't see them buffing our other abilities till they nerf/alter ToK in some way as the potential for extra damage is still there whether or not you can use it. If anything aside from that I hate that potential damage for us is also consequently stuck behind an ability that is also our only base defensive as well. I think if they really want to keep it doing damage have it so that it does considerably less but offset the damage loss by including some of the good karma heal from our artifact into it. That being said at least for me my dps doesn't seem to tank really all that much if I don't stand in fire to eat damage with it (so you could likely be right on them giving us some buff).

I guess they could likely just nerf the good karma talent itself even though they could likely just have it so the damage we do with ToK isn't affected by good karma. But generally they like to go the simplest route and the simplest route is just removing good karma or making its benefit worthless.
Tok is the big issue by far. I dont care that it does a ton of our damage if used correctly. The problem is using it correctly. We have to swap with a tank or stand in !@#$. Thats the problem
08/25/2018 08:12 AMPosted by Ék
While I would likely agree I care about the damage ToD does less because it is a dps cooldown only, I think they could change it up so the damage it does isn't done up front all at once. Maybe have it so it turns into a medium lasting dot that ramps up in a way (because at this point I get less the feeling of an actual touch of death like it had before where it was usable in execute range.).

On ToK, I don't see them buffing our other abilities till they nerf/alter ToK in some way as the potential for extra damage is still there whether or not you can use it. If anything aside from that I hate that potential damage for us is also consequently stuck behind an ability that is also our only base defensive as well. I think if they really want to keep it doing damage have it so that it does considerably less but offset the damage loss by including some of the good karma heal from our artifact into it. That being said at least for me my dps doesn't seem to tank really all that much if I don't stand in fire to eat damage with it (so you could likely be right on them giving us some buff).

I guess they could likely just nerf the good karma talent itself even though they could likely just have it so the damage we do with ToK isn't affected by good karma. But generally they like to go the simplest route and the simplest route is just removing good karma or making its benefit worthless.


I'm honestly surprised Blizzard didn't make the Good Karma talent our artifact trait from Legion. Wouldn't have been too bummed out if they did, but the 100% of our absorb back is fine by me just because it was how karma originally was in MoP, and to my knowledge Blizzard didn't exactly balance WW damage around Karma in MoP and our damage was decent then too. Also wouldn't the simple route be just doing nothing with Karma and buffing our other abilities anyway? Just like the simple solution to our prepatch 2 BoK > 1 RSK problem would have been to just buff RSK.

08/25/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Sashaahh
Tok is the big issue by far. I dont care that it does a ton of our damage if used correctly. The problem is using it correctly. We have to swap with a tank or stand in !@#$. Thats the problem


I think that's the fun part about Good Karma. It encourages WWs to know all the mechanics of a fight so they can use their abilities in the best way. For example, I'm still getting used to the 2nd boss in Temple of Sethraliss. If group burst is too high, ToD won't tick (as far as I've seen) and neither will ToK. However, we can use legsweep and paralysis to instantly clear the snake knots.
I'm honestly surprised Blizzard didn't make the Good Karma talent our artifact trait from Legion. Wouldn't have been too bummed out if they did, but the 100% of our absorb back is fine by me just because it was how karma originally was in MoP, and to my knowledge Blizzard didn't exactly balance WW damage around Karma in MoP and our damage was decent then too. Also wouldn't the simple route be just doing nothing with Karma and buffing our other abilities anyway? Just like the simple solution to our prepatch 2 BoK > 1 RSK problem would have been to just buff RSK.


Yes but they take the simple route as one that involves nerfs, not buffs. Karma doing to much damage (or a little to much) they will likely nerf it or the talent not buff our other abilities.
08/25/2018 07:31 PMPosted by Ék
I'm honestly surprised Blizzard didn't make the Good Karma talent our artifact trait from Legion. Wouldn't have been too bummed out if they did, but the 100% of our absorb back is fine by me just because it was how karma originally was in MoP, and to my knowledge Blizzard didn't exactly balance WW damage around Karma in MoP and our damage was decent then too. Also wouldn't the simple route be just doing nothing with Karma and buffing our other abilities anyway? Just like the simple solution to our prepatch 2 BoK > 1 RSK problem would have been to just buff RSK.


Yes but they take the simple route as one that involves nerfs, not buffs. Karma doing to much damage (or a little to much) they will likely nerf it or the talent not buff our other abilities.


Yea, but the thing is. I don't see how nerfs are the simpler route. Sure they "fix" the problem, but you also have to take into account community backlash and how effective the changes actually are. Remember how they "fixed" Tomb 6pc? Or when blizz "fixed" Xuen in PvP twice which ended up with Hit Combo getting nerfed by 50% in PvP? Or when blizz "fixed" Heavy Handed Strikes like at least three different times? Tell me, how simple were those solutions and how effective were they?
08/25/2018 07:31 PMPosted by Ék
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Yes but they take the simple route as one that involves nerfs, not buffs. Karma doing to much damage (or a little to much) they will likely nerf it or the talent not buff our other abilities.


Yea, but the thing is. I don't see how nerfs are the simpler route. Sure they "fix" the problem, but you also have to take into account community backlash and how effective the changes actually are. Remember how they "fixed" Tomb 6pc? Or when blizz "fixed" Xuen in PvP twice which ended up with Hit Combo getting nerfed by 50% in PvP? Or when blizz "fixed" Heavy Handed Strikes like at least three different times? Tell me, how simple were those solutions and how effective were they?


I did say simple, not efficient in a way that wouldn't' just end up as more trouble for them. That's why I doubt they will just buff something else over just going the nerfing route. Nerf it now, buff it later.
ToK is going to be adjusted.

With that said I don't even use GK and still top meters in mythics at the moment no problem.
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Yea, but the thing is. I don't see how nerfs are the simpler route. Sure they "fix" the problem, but you also have to take into account community backlash and how effective the changes actually are. Remember how they "fixed" Tomb 6pc? Or when blizz "fixed" Xuen in PvP twice which ended up with Hit Combo getting nerfed by 50% in PvP? Or when blizz "fixed" Heavy Handed Strikes like at least three different times? Tell me, how simple were those solutions and how effective were they?


I did say simple, not efficient in a way that wouldn't' just end up as more trouble for them. That's why I doubt they will just buff something else over just going the nerfing route. Nerf it now, buff it later.


The last time Blizzard did this, WWs were largely irrelevant for the xpac. See WoD when they took a massive dump on us in like week 1 or 2 Highmaul and didn't touch us until the middle of HFC.

08/25/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Zåx
ToK is going to be adjusted.

With that said I don't even use GK and still top meters in mythics at the moment no problem.


God I hope not. We finally have one of our trademark abilities back the way it was originally in MoP after 2 xpacs, it'd suck to see it go so soon especially after blizzard explicitly said that they weren't gonna mess with specs/classes until (i think) post-Uldir release.
we do need some solo survivability added back, holy hell I feel like they accidentally made all attacks bypass armor on us. Regular mobs like the ravagers just rip through our armor like it isn't there.
08/26/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Tegu
we do need some solo survivability added back, holy hell I feel like they accidentally made all attacks bypass armor on us. Regular mobs like the ravagers just rip through our armor like it isn't there.


There are definitely some packs that hit way harder than others, I've noticed. And that's not even between elite/non-elite mobs, just regular mobs hitting like wet paper while others swing semi trucks. I'd love to see Healing Elixir back as a baseline with a single charge. I don't think we need the double charge, even though rogues get a 30% heal plus their other survivability. If we got HE or a Karma heal, or even Transcendence heal, we'd be in a good spot health wise IMO.
08/25/2018 12:19 AMPosted by Yangxiaolóng
A lot of people are concerned that Karma deals too much of our damage from looking at sims and that Blizzard is balancing the rest of WW's dps around it. However, this is from looking at sims which assumes basically perfect karma use, which almost never happens. Personally, I think Karma should remain the same and that we should rotation abilities (RSK, FoF, BoK, TP, etc) buffed. While I agree that Karma is a huge % of our damage, i feel that it's only that way because our other abilities aren't as hard hitting. Karma has always been a pseudo trade off between more damage or living, and I don't think it should be taken into account when balancing WW damage. The good WWs will be able to make the most out of Karma, while others won't.
What is Karma bonus damage to you? You can't have your cake and eat it too, the only way our abilities get buffed is if the damage is taken from another source and most obvious way to do that is nerf Karma.

DPS wise we're in a good spot, perfectly competitive on single target, if there is a fight in Uldir we have an advantage on then we will always top it.

If I know this then Blizzard knows this as well, so why buff us? We're fine there is zero reason to.
08/26/2018 08:21 PMPosted by Actaeix
08/25/2018 12:19 AMPosted by Yangxiaolóng
A lot of people are concerned that Karma deals too much of our damage from looking at sims and that Blizzard is balancing the rest of WW's dps around it. However, this is from looking at sims which assumes basically perfect karma use, which almost never happens. Personally, I think Karma should remain the same and that we should rotation abilities (RSK, FoF, BoK, TP, etc) buffed. While I agree that Karma is a huge % of our damage, i feel that it's only that way because our other abilities aren't as hard hitting. Karma has always been a pseudo trade off between more damage or living, and I don't think it should be taken into account when balancing WW damage. The good WWs will be able to make the most out of Karma, while others won't.
What is Karma bonus damage to you? You can't have your cake and eat it too, the only way our abilities get buffed is if the damage is taken from another source and most obvious way to do that is nerf Karma.

DPS wise we're in a good spot, perfectly competitive on single target, if there is a fight in Uldir we have an advantage on then we will always top it.

If I know this then Blizzard knows this as well, so why buff us? We're fine there is zero reason to.


Because while we may be "fine" in a PvE aspect, we're still royally screwed for PvP, which is what the expansion is themed around. There's still the matter of our rotation being extremely slowed down, and is probably the slowest it's been since the creation of WW.
08/26/2018 08:21 PMPosted by Actaeix
... What is Karma bonus damage to you? You can't have your cake and eat it too, the only way our abilities get buffed is if the damage is taken from another source and most obvious way to do that is nerf Karma.

DPS wise we're in a good spot, perfectly competitive on single target, if there is a fight in Uldir we have an advantage on then we will always top it.

If I know this then Blizzard knows this as well, so why buff us? We're fine there is zero reason to.


Because why we may be fine in a PvE aspect, we're still royally screwed for PvP, which is what the expansion is themed around.

I can't speak for PvP, I don't do it or care about it but I can say the method to fixing those issues is not going to come from unbalancing WW in a PvE environment.
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Because why we may be fine in a PvE aspect, we're still royally screwed for PvP, which is what the expansion is themed around.

I can't speak for PvP, I don't do it or care about it but I can say the method to fixing those issues is not going to come from unbalancing WW in a PvE environment.


You say that, but historically, classes that have pretty strong effects in PvE also tend to do well in PvP. *cough cough* Rogues, Paladins, Affylocks *cough cough* After all where would rogues be w/o cloak/vanish or cloak/evasion or just straight up cloak? And where would Paladins be w/o immunities. And i suppose i'm obliged to ask where Affylocks would be w/o the insane DoT cleave/self heal.
08/26/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Tegu
we do need some solo survivability added back, holy hell I feel like they accidentally made all attacks bypass armor on us. Regular mobs like the ravagers just rip through our armor like it isn't there.


I can relate. I feel so squish when I'm just fighting one or two mobs, and it's even worse when i farm stuff for LW.
08/28/2018 12:11 AMPosted by Yangxiaolóng
08/26/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Tegu
we do need some solo survivability added back, holy hell I feel like they accidentally made all attacks bypass armor on us. Regular mobs like the ravagers just rip through our armor like it isn't there.


I can relate. I feel so squish when I'm just fighting one or two mobs, and it's even worse when i farm stuff for LW.


Just run through healing orbs when mobs die and use CTM on cooldown.
08/26/2018 07:28 PMPosted by Talfen
08/26/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Tegu
we do need some solo survivability added back, holy hell I feel like they accidentally made all attacks bypass armor on us. Regular mobs like the ravagers just rip through our armor like it isn't there.


There are definitely some packs that hit way harder than others, I've noticed. And that's not even between elite/non-elite mobs, just regular mobs hitting like wet paper while others swing semi trucks. I'd love to see Healing Elixir back as a baseline with a single charge. I don't think we need the double charge, even though rogues get a 30% heal plus their other survivability. If we got HE or a Karma heal, or even Transcendence heal, we'd be in a good spot health wise IMO.


Im going to disagree with any more added abilities.
I don't see what ability pruning has done for monks at all.

As a WW and MW I have to manage capral tunnel syndrome as there are a million buttons to push to be effective--- especially so for PVP
08/28/2018 07:30 AMPosted by Zåx
08/28/2018 12:11 AMPosted by Yangxiaolóng
...

I can relate. I feel so squish when I'm just fighting one or two mobs, and it's even worse when i farm stuff for LW.


Just run through healing orbs when mobs die and use CTM on cooldown.


As mentioned before, no way in hell I am running in warmode and getting ganked over and over. That means I dont have access to CTM. If they were to reverse CTM and GK between pve and pvp talents, I think it would work out better.
08/28/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Tegu
As mentioned before, no way in hell I am running in warmode and getting ganked over and over. That means I dont have access to CTM. If they were to reverse CTM and GK between pve and pvp talents, I think it would work out better.


So refer to the first part where I said run through the orbs.

If you're reasoning for not doing that is you can't kill things fast enough, refer to peakofserenity.com to help with your DPS needs.

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