BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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First one reached its limit. Wouldn't let me quote. Here's a popular post.

Posted by Gontier
First and foremost I'd like to say that for the past six years I've been a Blizzard Entertainment Forum MVP over at the European region*, so I'm quite knowledgeable about how your communication works, I'm well aware of how to communicate with our fellow players with a "Blizzard mindset", so to speak, etc. I'm also a feral druid, obviously.

Every Voice Matters.
Commit To Quality.

These words.. they're part of what you call your "company core values" that you so proudly claim to hold on to, the points that you aspire to meet when creating new games and/or new content. Today you failed us at both these points.

You've had plenty of time to listen to our feedback, our voices that you claim matter and respond accordingly. You've had alpha, beta, PTR, pre-patch, and now even on live. You know what's even worse? Not once during this time did we receive a post from one of your Community Managers/Developers explaining your thoughts about feral, no matter the sheer value of constructive criticism we gave you, but finally when we're worthy of your attention and get it, you gave us hope with the promise of a "tuning package" which turned out to be a flat damage increase to three abilities, two if you consider that one of said abilities nullifies the other. Not to mention that these fixes does not rectify any of the true, real concerns that we have and want, and even need, fixed first and foremost. Our energy regen, our ST and AoE, our lack of burst, our lack of effective DPS cooldown and how Berserk is almost a dps loss to use due to the GCD (can you just remove Berserk and replace it with Incarnation already, an actual DPS cooldown, please?). How Feral is still the least changed specialization throughout World of Warcraft's history. We're practically the same as we were back in The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, while most other classes have received substantial updates and big class changes that make them easier live up to today's version of World of Warcraft. We do not.

You took what, most Community Managers would call, a "constructive and well-thought through thread" and didn't treat it with the attention and care that it deserved. It's a good, well explained thread that describes some of our current issues that we, feral players, experience with your game. If you don't find this thread particularly interesting there's plenty of others both on this forum and other social media that we know you take feedback from as well, not to mention the in-game feedback and suggestion tools.

"Takes on the form of a great cat to deal damage with bleeds and bites." That's your definition of the feral specialization in the game and I fail to see where we live up to this anywhere. We're not great, we certainly don't have the bleed damage nor the teeth to have an effective bite. Hell, I'm not sure we can be considered to have claws.

With the Battle for Azeroth pre-patch you removed the artifact and with it everything that made feral even viable and competitive to begin with. Everything that made feral work. I'd like to strongly ask you to review Legion's patch notes for the feral specialization and see that it took almost an entire expansion for you to make us viable in Legion, and that is not okay a second time around.

Learn and Grow is one of your other company core values. Please take that to heart and learn and grow when it comes to feral and what needs to be changed. We really can't bother with band-aid fixes every expansion.

Q&A EDIT: Ion specifically said that we, feral, should not triumph on Aoe, not every specialization is supposed to be superior in every area of the game(hey, I can buy that), but the problem is also that we don't triumph on single target either, nor utility or bring anything "wow" to the table when it comes to raids or Mythic Plus. There's still plenty of fixes we need to see for a long term solution instead of band-aid fixes.

*The MVP program is held by the Blizzard Community Team on their forums, Blizzard Forum MVPs are NOT employees of Blizzard Entertainment.

Can Blizzard please please remove our +50% haste then do a tuning pass around that?
Agreed, that post was by far the most impactful on the thread. Something that should be read and understood by players and developers alike.

In quoting myself on the subject of Feral's performance in AoE along with it's ST niche, and I do think it is very much a problem...

While I do agree with the sentiment, and know that our ST tuning is seriously lacking, there is a huge issue with the concept of Feral's ST damage being it's quality niche.

Overall raid tuning and balance.

While we are (when tuned properly) above middle of the pack in raid and ST performance, there is a balance that the developers strive to maintain. So our ST output has been tuned (over Legion at least) in a way that there is limitations, and that there are still cleave and AoE heavy specs that equal (or even surpass) our own ST performance. This likely will not change as the overall raid balance in ST encounters is something they've tried to maintain.

So, when we are described to have a ST niche that doesn't exist, this essentially means that our AoE is punished for no reason.

While I do not want to bring in an entirely separate argument, I will use this example to press the ST niche even further. Please be patient as I'm not saying this as a DD/Bleed argument, as only how our non existent ST niche further contributes to punishment of the spec as a whole, regardless of preferrence.

So with a ST niche that doesn't exist that already punishes our AoE (as described above), we are also limited by the maximum potential output as provided by talents (be it the DD or Bleed build, again not an argument for this subject). So regardless of the complexity of a playstyle, or how much further input the player has to push their own performance of the spec, they are still very much limited to the balance and tuning of all other spec/classes as pure patchwork fight have show through logs.

So, in summary or a TLDR:
Our ST niche simply does not exist purely because of the balance and tuning against all other specs. This causes as issue where our AoE and lesser performing talents are punished for this output cap where the player isn't rewarded from extra performance (compared to other specs), but instead penalised.
Though there were a lot opinions, ideas and disagreements withing the first thread, I would strongly advise the developers to consider the information and feedback given.
So I leveled an alt Affliction lock to 120. Here are some numbers to compared.

ST boss fights:
Feral @ 328 ilvl: 5.8k dps.
Warlock @ 291 ilvl: 8.9k dps.

I understand that Feral shouldn't be "AoE Kings" (who asked for this btw) - and that the rotation is designed to be challenging (that's the fun) - but this is ridiculous and without reward.

Blizzard, you want to wait until mid-September to 'tune' us again but people are paying for this game...today.

We're being denied early raid spots...today.
We're being denied early mythic+ spots....today.
We're getting kicked from mythic 0's...today.


Blizzard, I implore you to realize that when you fail to have a spec ready for the launch of an expansion you're delivering a failed product and a horrible gaming experience to the customers that ends up trampling on the entire launch and experience going even further into the expansion - for those that stick around.

Maybe you've got 'enough players' so it doesn't matter to you and if that is your stance, so be it. It's just really poor game design and preparation and goes against every single blue post you have speaking about the philosophical constructs of what this experience should be.
One thing I have noted running through Mythic dungeons on a Feral druid is that the Regrowth off-healing that we have to offer is pretty nice, except for the fact it does not jive with Bloodtalons. It feels pretty great to keep topping people off and having a niche like that, it feels appropriate to the druid archetype, say when they get tagged by something bad and you are using your downtime to make yourself useful, but it just isn't good feedback.

Not that Bloodtalons needs more hate - I have yet to see anyone really happy with the way it is interacting in these topics, elsewhere, and in-game - but it just doesn't mesh with something that actually feels good. Maybe I am the odd Feral out here who likes spot healing, so take that with a grain of salt I guess.
08/25/2018 09:03 AMPosted by Cloudshift
We're being denied early raid spots...today.
We're being denied early mythic+ spots....today.
We're getting kicked from mythic 0's...today.

Yeah it's not even funny how much this happens. I queue for a dozen mythic groups, half of them decline while the other half ask if I play Balance, which I reply no and get declined. The only time I have managed to get into any mythics is when I made my own group with guild members or tanked.

Ferals just inherently do much less damage than everything else in the game, to the point that even killing regular mobs out in the world at 340 ilvl is painful. Meanwhile, I see other classes run in and slaughter mobs in a couple seconds with normal mode dungeon gear. The only way I can clear quests and world quests with any amount of speed is when I abuse the Predator talent (Tiger's Fury cooldown reset on kill) and Moment of Clarity talent (doubles chance of free ability use and increases max energy) to spam swipe, which also ends up dealing more damage than Brutal Slash because it has no cooldown and I'm not limited by energy when I can just spam Tiger's Fury.

Feral Druid's main problems can be boiled down to these few points:
1. All abilities have a garbage energy-to-damage ratio, except Rip and Brutal Slash*
2. All abilities cost too much for our energy pool of 100 (130 with MoC)
3. Energy regen too low for the combined problems of points 1+2
4. Because of all three previous points, our main source of damage is AUTO-ATTACKS! (???????)
5. Our gameplay and abilities are not engaging enough due to all previous problems and our hard work is not even close to being rewarded with any sort of viable performance
6. We have no tools to make us useful to a group. None at all. Sure we can stun a single mob for about 14 seconds but when half the dungeon mobs are IMMUNE that doesn't really matter, and root is the weakest of all CC in the game

*Brutal Slash is the only ability with a decent energy to damage ratio out of all our abilities but because it has such a hefty cooldown we can't actually use it enough to make up for the deficit of our kit, while Rip is a move you can only use once every blue moon per mob (read never if you have Sabertooth and fight a single target), and Soul of the Forest makes Ferocious Bite actually good

Now, I know that we kind of were answered in the Q&A stream that the team wasn't done, but a lot of the Feral community is anxious because we haven't gotten a blue post with any actual details of anything. The last time we got any news about changes incoming everyone had hope, but then we were slapped with a 15% boost to abilities we really didn't care about to begin with (well, Thrash damage kind of helps, maybe?). Meanwhile, the Affliction Warlock thread got an amazingly detailed post and if we got something like that for Druids I think many (if not all) Druids would be alleviated of their fears.

Please Blizzard. Say something. Show us you're alive and care. At least say hello and acknowledge you're still reading all this stuff if you can't give details. You've got two whole threads dedicated to a single spec now, and one of them is closed due to the post limit!
I've had strong opinions on the subject, but will lay out the simple issues of BT.

Taking up utility to use as dps maintenance:
More than likely, if you're needing to throw out a heal, it's going to be when least expected (be it yourself or a fellow party member). If it is being used as a dps maintenance buff, it means that it'd most likely not be used or available when needed.

A GCD on a high use maintenance buff:
By the time of BFA release, Tiger's Fury and Symbols of Death avoided the GCD changes. This was primarily because of their low CD interactions with the rotation (along with energy return), while the Druid uses a GCD on utility at a very specific time in their playstyle. This causes a jankyness to a spec that should be extremely smooth in it's abilities, which leaves us the final point.

The barrier of entry for a completely different playstyle:
With Feral's identity crisis with various styles of play, a number of players avoid talents that could seem to be cumbersome as described above, thus missing out on the full capabilities of the spec.

I've avoided my usual rant on the subject for clear emotionless information which can help in gathering information on the talent. And I hope others do the same in letting the reader know what they enjoy/dislike about the talents for BFA Feral.

Please remove the cap on our previous thread (if it's in your technological means to do so, I know it can be difficult as multi-billion dollar company, but do your best i believe in you!):

I can help you find the post because I'm a good paying sheep:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20764026218?page=76

Thanks in advance (if you can do it before I die of old age). I want to make sure that post breaks record high number, so they know just how horrible of a job they've... I mean to give constructive criticism.... that wont ever see the light of day.
It would be cool if ferals got our 10% crit buff as a passive again and it spread to other players in your group. That was fantastic and I miss it. It's so stupid having that as a talent, and nerfed anyway b/c we need to have bleeds up for that crit to even start taking effect.

It's frustrating when auto attack does more damage than our bleeds!

It's even more frustrating when my shreds do more damage then ferocious bite!

Berserk/Incarnation is a small damage boost that's on a 3 min CD. Thoughts on it being moved to a 2 minute CD?
08/25/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Rockford
Taking up utility to use as dps maintenance:More than likely, if you're needing to throw out a heal, it's going to be when least expected (be it yourself or a fellow party member). If it is being used as a dps maintenance buff, it means that it'd most likely not be used or available when needed


I used to toss out heals on party members that were lower health but in the fight for good damage, I no longer heal them as much since I'm trying to keep up with the other dps and you guys know how that's going.
08/25/2018 11:22 AMPosted by Liger
It would be cool if ferals got our 10% crit buff as a passive again and it spread to other players in your group. That was fantastic and I miss it. It's so stupid having that as a talent, and nerfed anyway b/c we need to have bleeds up for that crit to even start taking effect.

It's frustrating when auto attack does more damage than our bleeds!

It's even more frustrating when my shreds do more damage then ferocious bite!

Berserk/Incarnation is a small damage boost that's on a 3 min CD. Thoughts on it being moved to a 2 minute CD?


Part of why I am fond of making Blood Scent baseline for the Feral druid, the sort of thing that could even be renamed Leader of the Pack again. If Blizzard was being generous, give it that familiar ability native to it in the tiny bonus heal on a critical hit, say once every ten seconds. It wouldn't be that overwhelming either - just a worse version of Restoration Affinity, but still a novelty and call back with some tiny use beyond just opening up another talent option.

I am very fond of hearkening back to old archetype abilities and adding the new into them. Certain iconic abilities sort of help with class identity and there's plenty of examples of them being around and reshuffled into new forms. I don't see why Feral shouldn't get some of that.

As for Berserk, it needs a lot more help than being put on a short cooldown. It really needs to provide a damage bonus like it did in Legion through the artifact and it really would be fine to take it back off the global cooldown. There's already a few abilities that violate the new rule, one of which is ours in Tiger's Fury. That or just make Berserk so good it is worth spending a global on like its cousins in Adrenaline Rush.
I use one function of tellmewhen to make a one_button rotation for several classes I played.

For all other classes like rogue, mage, monk. or hunters, I can use about 20 icons and 5 conditions for each icon to make a good dps rotation. But for feral, I use 86 icons and even 20 conditions for several icons to make a perfect rotation.

what I want to say is that ferals' rotation is far more complicated than other classes. Sometimes itfeelslike a punishment to play a feral.

What's the point to do the lowest DPS with the most complicated rotation? I just don't get it.

If ferals cannot be fixed before the raid, I have to switch to rogue.
It would be awesome if we could get a talent fix on the rows. I would love to see 1 row dedicated to AoE and what kind of AoE we want to do. I DO NOT want to trade ST for AoE.

I would like to see the pvp talent "Rip and Tear" for instantly applied some bleeds as a regular talent.

My thoughts on the current talents:

Row 15, Blood Scent.

08/25/2018 11:22 AMPosted by Liger
It would be cool if ferals got our 10% crit buff as a passive again and it spread to other players in your group. That was fantastic and I miss it. It's so stupid having that as a talent, and nerfed anyway b/c we need to have bleeds up for that crit to even start taking effect.


Row 30, Renewal.

I think Renewal is a useless talent. We already have self heals, and we can pick Resto affinity if we want more heals. Row 30 is a movement row and I'd like to see another movement added there instead of renewal.

Row 60, Typhoon.

Never works and if it does, the knockback is weak. I think having this for resto/balance druids would be fine.

Row 90, Sabertooth.

It's an okay talent, I use it in pvp mainly though. Honestly though, I think ferocious bite should be checked and it shouldn't be a talent to increase that damage, especially if you're okay with the reapplying bleeds rotation.

08/19/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Liger
My shreds do more damage then my ferocious bites (like really?). I've tried different talent set ups, for example [Sabertooth] [Savage Roar] [Bloodtalons] [Soul of the Forest]. All seem to pull the same range dps, placing me last in charts. I'm currently using [Blood Scent] to help with more crit and combo points, but I don't prefer this talent. I'd rather do the [Lunar Inspiration] talent.

Here's a number example:
Shred hits between 2.5k-8.5k for me.
My bites hit for 7k-10k on average.
Sometimes they hit for 15k-20k and one time I had it hit for 37k.

What is going on there!?^^^^^


Row 100, Bloodtalons.

Just wanted to throw it out there, healers tell me to stop healing myself LOL. They are surprised when they find out when I heal myself I get a damage buff.

My thoughts on energy:

08/19/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Liger
Energy regeneration sucks. If ferals had a higher energy cap like 150 like when we use [Incarnation: King of the Jungle], the energy problem feels a less bit struggling. I'm still running into the issue where I use [Tiger's Fury], my energy hits cap 100 and I can't earn any more energy. So I've made a habit of using berserk or Incarnation first and then hit Tiger's Fury so it generates pass the 100 energy mark. I thought the legendary ring with the 200 energy was a great thing and was hoping to see a talent or see it become baseline after reaching a certain level
Feral rotation should be more complex because that is what draws folks to it.

However, we should also be rewarded for doing it correctly. Keeping up our dots/debuffs/pooling energy/etc, should reward us with DPS that doesn't get us laughed at.

Blizzard of course speaks out and says "Sorry, wait until September" but launch happened on Aug 14th.

They say they don't want to tune us until September so they don't have to make another pass - which offloads their failures and refusal to budge onto the players.

Everytime there is a problem, Blizzard doesn't suffer from it - the player does. They apologize and promise they will do better next time, and then we do it this dance all over again.
08/25/2018 10:08 AMPosted by Shenzâ
Please remove the cap on our previous thread (if it's in your technological means to do so, I know it can be difficult as multi-billion dollar company, but do your best i believe in you!):

I can help you find the post because I'm a good paying sheep:


top keks.

+1, sir
In my opinion some things I think would make the class better is a change of talents.

Bloodtalons should be removed as a talent instead added as a passive Feral Druids have

Feral Frenzy I can't believe this is a talent should just be another ability Feral druids have.

I realize that would make it so Game Devs would have to design two new talents for Ferals but I think it's warranted.

Our Energy regen is so terrible I think it should not be determined by how much Haste we have.

I wish we could have the Mastery bleeds back and fix it so our bleeds actually do real damage. When auto attacks do more damage than my Bloodtalons buffed bleeds something is wrong.

Stealth should be fixed not sure why the cooldown is longer than a rogues makes zero sense, also I have noticed we are easier seen in stealth versus rogues stealth also not sure why that is.
We are getting removed from groups asked if we are "Balance" and if not left with no response and forced to start our own groups and even then players are uneasy to join a group with feral druids.

If we do not see changes we will almost be forced to play a different class as we will not be viable for mythic+ or raids simply because we offer nothing, or not enough. We were told we would be receiving a "Tuning package" which was nothing but a minor buff to 3 abilities one of which is a talent and must be chosen to replace the other so really only 2 abilities were buffed(you can only use two at a time). Super disappointing.

I love the Sabertooth talent, at this point it's almost a must have to even do any damage, otherwise Ferocious bite hits like a toddler.

Jagged wounds is pretty much unusable with the energy problems it makes it even harder to reapply bleeds when they fall off so fast. The only talents good enough in this row for now are Soul of the Forest and Incarnation: King of the Jungle

We need some serious changes, and I hope to see them soon.
08/25/2018 12:37 PMPosted by Saberform
In my opinion some things I think would make the class better is a change of talents.

Bloodtalons should be removed as a talent instead added as a passive Feral Druids have

Feral Frenzy I can't believe this is a talent should just be another ability Feral druids have.

I realize that would make it so Game Devs would have to design two new talents for Ferals but I think it's warranted.

Our Energy regen is so terrible I think it should not be determined by how much Haste we have.

I wish we could have the Mastery bleeds back. When auto attacks do more damage than my Bloodtalons buffed bleeds something is wrong.

We are getting removed from groups asked if we are "Balance" and if not left with no response and forced to start our own groups and even then players are uneasy to join a group with feral druids.

If we do not see changes we will almost be forced to play a different class as we will not be viable for mythic+ or raids simply because we offer nothing, or not enough. We were told we would be receiving a "Tuning package" which was nothing but a minor buff to 3 abilities one of which is a talent and must be chosen to replace the other so really only 2 abilities were buffed(you can only use two at a time). Super disappointing.

I love the Sabertooth talent, at this point it's almost a must have to even do any damage, otherwise Ferocious bite hits like a toddler.

Jagged wounds is pretty much unusable with the energy problems it makes it even harder to reapply bleeds when they fall off so fast. The only talents good enough in this row for now are Soul of the Forest and Incarnation: King of the Jungle

We need some serious changes, and I hope to see them soon.
Everyone wave goodbye thread,

*waves* "bye thread!"

1500 posts that blizzard will pretend never existed once it leaves the first page. And we have to start from square one giving our feedback that won't be so much as glanced at.

'You asked and we listened,

Feral:

10% increased damage to rip
5% increased damage to rake

It was hard and it took a few weeks and allot of discussion but we as a company and our internal testing group felt that these were good changes, now going forward were going to be monitoring these changes and we'll revisit them if need be.'

And this will continue for the next however many months until the expac is almost over then they front load massive amounts of damage into a hyper band-aid fix when nobody is playing anymore waiting for the next expac.

I'm about 90% sure this is how it's going to play out, mark my words.
@shenza: what are you talking about? was there a post somewhere that I can't find?
08/25/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Liger
@shenza: what are you talking about? was there a post somewhere that I can't find?


I believe it was a jab based on the fact the "looking over" we got was for area of effect for Thrash, Swipe, and Brutal Slash by a whopping 15% and 20%.
- Rip needs a heavy buff, plain and simple. Not quite sure how much exactly, but ball-park 25%+ damage at the bare minimum. It's simply just way too undertuned right now.

- Rake needs a slight buff (though not to the point where it becomes too good and tab rake spam in dungeons becomes a thing as the best way to max dps for M+, its really annoying/gimmicky a playstyle). Though it is a lot more difficult to actually tab rake now with no Chatoyant signet, to be fair.

- Bloodtalons needs a 15% or so buff. Right now its total garbage and there's no reason to take it. Don't remove it because a high amount of ferals play feral because of this ability alone and the skill requirement and rewarding feeling it yields.

- There needs to ideally be another means of more energy regen or reduced energy cost outside of predator resets. Bloodtalons also reducing energy cost of next 2 melee abilities by said % or number, for example.. Solid buff to bloodtalons playstyle making it less clunky and triggering.

- Berserk.... sucks. I dunno, I'd like to see its CD reduced by like a minute (or make its duration last 20-30 seconds instead of 15). 3 minutes for a DPS cd that doesn't actually offer any actual DPS increase and lasts for a pitiful 15 seconds is a bit much. It just feels super awkward and pointless at the present time.

- Brutal slash and Thrash are still undertuned even after the "buffs".

- Low crit due to low secondary stats right now cripples ferals combo point generation, making it even more painful (which is another variable devs obviously did not take into account). No other spec is reliant on a secondary stat in this way really for rotation QoL.

- Perhaps re-implement rakes interaction with omen of clarity procs so it can be easier maintained in energy starved situations. (to be more specific, talking about running bloodtalons and not MoC, as MoC would obviously have to be adjusted and rake fit in there to synergize with it).

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