BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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08/28/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Carbonaceous
You're right. It should be. Hell, Incarnation should be baseline for all specs, too. SR/JW/BT are all "increases damage by Y%" abilties and are honestly quite stale, yet our entire spec is balanced around them. They should be deleted.

We should get an energy regeneration row, an AoE row, and a finisher row. Right now our rows make use choose between energy, ST, AoE, and there's no rhyme or reason to them.

Blood Scent should be removed and all ferals should get LotP. And we can replace Blood Scent with Exsanguinate.

I disagree with you about Savage Roar, Jagged Wounds and Bloodtalons. Of course they increase damage, point me to a talent you want which doesn't increase damage.
I'll quote part of my post from earlier in the thread, it was a long post I suspect many people just ignored it.
08/28/2018 01:14 AMPosted by Cluey
I should probably give my thoughts on Bloodtalons.
I quite like it, I think it's a clever idea with a poor implementation.
It shouldn't be linked to casting a heal, as others have said, this removes the off-healing utility which feral brings. You can't use the heal when it's required without screwing yourself out of the damage benefit from the talent, that's wrong.

Jagged Wounds isn't a bad talent either, it's a choice you make before a fight about taking or not. It makes the "rotation", for want of a better word, less forgiving but has its place. On fights with additional targets it might be the better choice, it depends on how long they live and how quickly they need to die.

I don't think that Blood Scent should become Leader of the Pack though. We already bring utility, even if players here like to diminish it.
We've got a, non-exclusive, combat res, a group movement buff, different ways of CC things - which can vary with the situation - and off-heals. The healing part isn't easy to do though, it feels horrible on the GCD and is part of why people dislike Bloodtalons so much.

LotP would make assembling a raid group awkward for the people involved. The juggling acts we had to do, back when there were so many group buffs, were tedious and added nothing to game play. It was a mini-game your officers/raid leader played outside of WoW itself.

I'm not sure you'd like what would happen if they shuffled up our current talents rows with your themes in mind.
The energy row would end up with Predator, Moment of Clarity and Soul of the Forest on it. Pretty sure you don't want that as you'd like SotF base line.
Making it baseline would help our energy starvation but so would the old Ashamane's Energy artifact trait.

AoE row could be, Brutal Slash, Thrash - reworked as a finisher - and Feral Frenzy - reworked so it spread Rake, or just left a DoT like the old artifact ability did but on multiple targets not one.

ST/finisher row would probably end up being Savage Roar, Sabertooth and Bloodtalons. I don't think you'd like that either.
08/28/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Feralsoul
08/28/2018 02:29 PMPosted by Razenarlek
...
I was thinking something along the lines of how Affliction currently works, where we throw stacks of bleeds on a target that all deal independent damage from each other and cannot be refreshed. At the same time we'd need a method of applying multiple stacks quickly, perhaps a new ability similar to Blood Talons where it triples the application of the next 2 bleeds applied.

It all depends on the actual timer of the bleed to determine how much ramp we have. Shorter duration DoTs tend to deal more damage quickly, whereas long DoTs are apply-and-forget. I find the latter kind of DoT to be very un-engaging, and as much as I'd maybe like to play Warlock, I don't like pure DPS classes and I much prefer versatile classes.

Feral is pretty much the only DoT-based melee class other than Unholy Death Knight but they're more about applying stacks and then consuming them. There's only a single DoT-stacking class in the game and that's Affliction Warlock, so I think there's room to make some well-designed bleed stacking mechanics that satisfies the conditions of short ramp, viable damage and fun engaging gameplay. Though that would be up to the devs to figure out and unlikely to be any time soon. That said, our good ol' game overlords are free to prove me wrong and churn it out next week. ;)


I am going to fundamentally disagree, especially since that does not solve the issue of the class being an absolute train wreck to juggle. Granted Feral is notoriously harder to a number of the classic three button specs, but adding more urgency to getting bleeds up and out, even if our regeneration was improved, does not sound fun. Not at all. Affliction has a number of other toys to play with to those ends - to include the obvious benefit of not being melee.

The specialization can do with streamlining. not diversifying, especially when you are more or less totally rendering Ferocious Bite - an iconic ability - obsolete. The idea of keeping damage over time up with two bleeds, three if you throw in the magic debuff of Moonfire, might be lacking in engagement, but it does have a purpose especially with the pooling style it has tried to be. Not every incarnation of Feral needs to feel like a panic and it really shouldn't; throwing more into the mix like that is not going to really help. I'd much rather have a nice cycle, but that cycle of abilities mean something.

As it stands that's where the actual issue is. There's a simultaneously an obscene amount of downtime mingled with brief windows of trying to cram everything you need to do in just so you can do numbers others do with no actual effort.

Well said. That last paragraph is a great summarised description of how feral plays.
Fix feral. My gear is pretty good and it still plays terrible. Due to trait gimmicks I can narrow the dps gap but am still at the bottom when compared to equally geared peers with maximum nerd try hard effort. I do way more damage single target as boomkin.

The down time is deplorable. I shouldn’t feel like I’m playing a level 40.
Bliz, besides the tuning to our damage that I hope comes, please look at some quality of life changes for ferals utility too.

Resto affinity is really good right now. This allows feral to have a solid utility of off healing they bring. Problem is, everything pulls us out of form. Please consider making one or both of our instant casts - rejuv or swiftmend - be castable in cat form.
The reason being here is we lose valuable auto attacks by casting these instant casts. It also costs us double the GCDs due to shifting being on the GCD. These weird double GCD scenarios feral rruns into is completely unique and punishing to only ferals because we are so reliant on being in cat form to keep up our dps. Moving the instant Casts to cat form make sense (you've done this for soothe and predatory procs of regrowth/hibernate/roots) and pulling us out for hard casts makes sense.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing the tuning you do for us, and I really beg for these small quality of life changes too
08/28/2018 08:59 PMPosted by Shenzâ
Shut up, go away. Feral sucks. Go crawl back under your rock. I already made a rogue. Wish I did it sooner.


Attacking people doesn't fix this. I agree with Cluey. Ion is genuinely trying to help and it's not his call to make or break a class. Let's not attack each other and keep the issues plaguing our spec the focal point of this thread.
08/28/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Cluey
LotP would make assembling a raid group awkward for the people involved. The juggling acts we had to do, back when there were so many group buffs, were tedious and added nothing to game play. It was a mini-game your officers/raid leader played outside of WoW itself.

I didn't mean crit for everyone I meant the 5% crit for ferals with the heal affect that it used to have.
08/28/2018 08:59 PMPosted by Shenzâ
Shut up, go away. Feral sucks. Go crawl back under your rock. I already made a rogue. Wish I did it sooner.

Good! That means you'll stop replying to the thread with your toxic words! Enjoy Rogue, don't come back.
I really don't think 5% crit would make or break a raid at this point. Sure it would be helpful, but your giving people 10% stamina from priest, Warriors bring battle shout, feral has nothing unique to bring to a raid other than a Brez that numerious classes have now.
08/29/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Brokenclaws
I really don't think 5% crit would make or break a raid at this point. Sure it would be helpful, but your giving people 10% stamina from priest, Warriors bring battle shout, feral has nothing unique to bring to a raid other than a Brez that numerious classes have now.


For a raid? This is sort of true. For dungeons, our off healing is actually really strong right now. We just need the dps to back it up.
Edit: off healing obviously good for raids too, but the value is diminished a little.
Edit 2: they also decreased who brings brez. However, general point stands is that it's not extremely unique.
5% crit isn't going to make or break a 5 man dungeon either. Even highest level Mythic+ wouldn't be required to bring a feral, which I don't recall seeing to many in the world championship Mythic+ event they ran anyway.
*Sigh*

7 days and about a 1000 forum posts from concerned players since the last blue post... still no response from Blizzard. I wonder if we can cap out another thread before they respond.
I don't care if they don't respond, I just trust that they're reading and collecting data and when they do the tune up and it's still crappy, well, people are going to be very upset. I'm hoping they do a good job *crosses fingers*
08/29/2018 02:29 PMPosted by Liger
I don't care if they don't respond, I just trust that they're reading and collecting data and when they do the tune up and it's still crappy, well, people are going to be very upset. I'm hoping they do a good job *crosses fingers*


Yes this. I doubt they have anything more to really say. They informed us we are on their radar and the QnA seemingly said they weren't done with us (and others). So I can only hope and pray they do a good job.

However, if they need more time for our fix- then they need to communicate that.
am crossing my paws and all the toes! for a proper fix, tbh if they took and doubled our pawn string stats that's all the fix we would need, with hero/drums and procs and trinkets into effect I get over 40% haste feral feels much better,
Feral Druid changes coming soon (this week):
  • Energy regeneration rate increased by 10%
  • Rip damage increased by 15%
  • Berserk duration increased from 15 to 20 sec
  • Brutal Slash cost reduced from 30 to 25 energy
  • Swipe cost reduced from 40 to 35 energy
  • Thrash cost reduced by from 45 to 40 energy, and damage reduced proportionally
  • We’re reducing the energy cost of Thrash but also proportionally reducing the damage. The goal is easier ramp-up time in AOE situations, while avoiding causing Thrash to be added to the single target rotation (since it's close to Shred's Energy to damage ratio), which we think wouldn’t make for a better overall rotation.
  • The spec's hidden 50% increase to Haste secondary stat value reduced to 25%.
  • This helps alleviate a secondary stat scaling issue, and both the Energy and damage loss should be overcompensated for by the increase to base Energy regeneration rate plus the other changes listed. We eventually want to remove this hidden bonus entirely, but since players have already made gearing choices based on Haste being their best secondary stat, we don’t want to upset that in the short-term, so we’ll do this in two parts.

The sum of these changes is intended and expected to be a increase in Energy income, pacing, and damage in all situations.

Other issues we've been talking about (future patch timeline):
  • Better consolidate Energy-increasing and heavy pacing-impacting talents into the same row, and reduce the pacing impact that a single talent has
  • The goal is to reduce the Energy/pacing swing between different talent builds, which allows us to bring up the bottom without letting the highest Energy/pacing talent build with endgame/late expansion gear to get near overflow range
  • Better separate Single Target talents and Multitarget Talents into their own rows
  • This is slightly more of a challenge on Druid specs than most specs, due to Druids having only 4 throughput talent rows (compared to most specs having 5), but it's a goal we have for all specs.
  • Provide better AOE talent options
  • Echoing suggestions - a combo-point spender is a possible direction. There may be an additional opportunity to do something with Thrash here. It functions as an enabler, but could be doing even more for the spec.
  • Bloodtalons
  • Bloodtalons does a great job at adding complexity to the rotation, but we're not sure the method in which it does that is right for the spec long-term. Bloodtalons asks you to frequently cast a Regrowth in exchange for its buff, which in a group/raid, means either you're required to keep an eye on group/raid frames (which is a lot to ask) or you make a macro to mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself (which isn't great).
  • Remove the spec’s bonus to Haste secondary stat (currently on live 50%, soon to be 25%) entirely. Re-adjust Energy/pacing to compensate.
  • Mentioned above, but now that Bleeds scale with Haste, it's both no longer needed to make Haste a relevant stat for Feral, and is also contributing to expansion-wide scaling issues.
  • Remove cat form’s 40% bonus to auto-attack damage.
  • This contributes to feedback that abilities don't hit hard enough and have low Energy to damage conversion ratios.

Note that as we've mentioned before, we're watching overall class tuning and plan to make a general tuning pass later next week.
Soda will be Pogging
meanwhill, WW has 20% of its DPS in a defense cooldown, seems good
Omg finally some changes in the right direction
Thank you so much for finally giving us some information. We've been desperate for something and this helps. The future timeline has some promise for sure.

The only thing I want to add is to make Berserk baseline a better cooldown. For a 3 minute cooldown, even at 20 seconds it feels like it has little to no impact. Even if you just baked the previous expansion's King of the Jungle trait into it would be enough to make it feel nice to press in situations that aren't just setup.
Happy to see changes before Uldir :)

Hope you guys respond to the other druid specialization issues as well. Your work is appreciated <3

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