BfA Feral Feedback (cont'd)

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The issue people have with off-heals competing with Bloodtalons is that no other class who has similar ability to do so are shackled to having their damage link off of it. Retribution paladins, who are surprisingly good currently, can perform a similar trick to the Feral specialization's Regrowths with a talent for Flash of Light with Selfless Healer. Of course this is not as efficient or as frequent, but it comes with the benefit that it can be used at useful points with no cost to damage per second.

Feral, which extensively leans on Regrowth because of its poor defensive cooldowns outside of Survival Instincts, makes for a remarkable off-healer. This is almost certainly intended and it makes life profoundly easier in Mythic dungeons or player versus player even if the Feral druid does not need the healing; someone else can benefit. Now regularly this should be a reason to bring a Feral druid, to help compensate for unexpected spikes in damage, usually player error, and allow the healer more room to do what they need to do. That is an incentive.

But because Feral has awful damage per second, its role, and fills no real niche this isn't worth it. The current proposed tuning will help make things slightly better, at least Blizzard is confronting it now, but Bloodtalons does not jive with that design. Whenever I run Bloodtalons I just macro it to heal myself or my focus, which is usually the tank. It isn't engaging or interesting and a good amount of my potential healing from Regrowth just gets wasted trying to snapshot damage instead.

Bloodtalons conceptually isn't a bad idea, the whole "get a buff, improve the next effect", but hinging it on Predatory Swiftness is horrible. It forces one of the few niceties of Feral, perks that should make it desirable, out of the picture and is almost mandatory to do average damage that other classes do not even need to think about. That's just bad design and that's why it does deserve a retooling. If it can't be retooled, remove it.

As said before I think Bloodtalons could live on as a cycle type ability where if you Rake or Thrash, your next Rip in X amount of seconds has its damage increased by Y%. After you Rip, your next Rake or Thrash in X seconds has its damage increased by Y%. The essence of it is still there - what it was more or less used for - but how it is done is just natural now. Legitimately no one was wasting it on Shred, Swipe, or Ferocious Bite unless they knew they would get the proc back in a second for Rake or Rip. Let's just be honest with that.

Alternatively it could be made into a cooldown type ability with stacks only for bleeds, but I prefer the concept of cycling. We as Feral already want to tag things with Rip when we are trying to do area of effect between Thrash and Swipe, so that goes hand in hand as much as it does with single target.
Another reason why bloodtalons blows is that if you don't have the buff up and press regrowth it pulls you out of cat form unless you use some macro like

#showtooltip
/use [mod:alt,nocombat,@player][help][@mouseover,nocombat,help][@player,nocombat]Regrowth
/console autoUnshift 0
/use [mod:alt,@player][help][@mouseover,help][@focus,help][@targettarget,help][@player]Regrowth
/console autoUnshift 1


Also, unless you're some sort of beautiful mind savant, good luck using the default UI to actually play feral well. You're basically forced to use some sort of UI tweak to track the snapshots, and even then, you're hardly ever maximizing them.

You also have classes that have AE on demand yet you don't balance feral to be slower ae but amazing single target. So basically you are playing, as others have said, a mediocre rogue with no good defensives, almost no real CC utility.. and a heal that you have to somehow maximize by "ally healing" (usually it is a self only macro, or focus tank macro)

Feral druids are the one spec in the game that still has the legacy "choice" and it is night-and-day that the choices are completely empty and all you can do is make the wrong choice to lower your DPS. Snapshotting, and the required addons and interface to do it well, is absurd, where other classes literally press 4-5 buttons in an obvious rotation and are fine.

The balance with feral is IMPOSSIBLE:

if it is going to be ridiculously complicated, you'd have to give a bonus to the damage for pulling off a flawless rotation to match the complexity...except then talented guilds and players would stack that class.

Meanwhile everyone who blows at feral (most people) barely keep up in most dungeons.

It is proof that nobody important at blizzard actually listened to or played feral in alpha/beta or any of last expansion. This isn't a new problem, it is identical to legion's problem. It is just really obvious that a feral ramps up on one trash mob to do ONE AE when other classes are stacking multiple AEs and by the time the feral does one, the mobs are flat out dead.

Look at the M+ class choices.

Basically, feral is punished in PVE because of how godly they are in PVP. That's it. If their single target rotation is "powerful" or "aligned" in PVE, they become dominating gods in PVP because bleed + mobility = gg

so they require this utterly ridiculous buff stacking snapshot to really maximize that DPS (and pull it under other specs/classes) so that burst isn't as controllable.

There is absolutely zero reason to play feral, even after these changes, instead of a rogue, in any environment. You can pretend that you're going to buff one class to bring it in line with others.... but being the worst melee DPS barely ahead of tanks? Where other melee with amazing group utility AND survivability are 20-30% ahead? And can AE almost on demand? Yeah, not holding my breath on feral...
If Feral going to be terrible at aoe there really needs to be better utility to take them.
Being that Ion has said in the most recent Q&A (in the opening minutes on Feral AoE), "that it's unacceptable for even an area of weakness to be so far behind the norm, that other specs are bringing for core type of content, like clearing mobs in a dungeon. And that's something we need to address, but we're not done"

This is absolutely a shift from the beginning of Legion, and would like to believe this as a statement to previous flaws now they know how popular the M+ system really is, and how important it is to focus on spec viability for all types of core content.
08/30/2018 07:52 AMPosted by Meowfurion
08/30/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Kuli
...

Not saying we couldn't use more. But a lot of ferals aren't realizing our off healing potential right now. It's actually superb (with resto affinity). I really hope they keep this niche relevant for us and gear/health doesn't ruin this for us.

With that said, we could still use some quality of life there (make swiftmend and or rejuv castable in cat. It's brutal to unshift for an instant cast and be on gcd and lose AAs. The hard casts make sense to pull us out.) ... But again, we definitely could use a little something else as well.


I don't mean this to be rude at all, but I don't play a mDPS class to heal other people, and I don't expect another DPS to heal me in a boss fight, either.

The hybrid class setup for Druids died a very long time ago.


Seconded for not wanting to be considered an off-healing anything. After years and years of being a healer in other MMOs, when I came to WoW I stated up front that I would never be a healer. 14 years later that is still true. I am a dpser or tank, but never a healer.
08/30/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Wraithe
08/30/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Meowfurion
My dream fixes for Feral:Increase damage of Shred by 10%, and make it do more damage behind our opponent or let it have a higher crit chance in that position. That was fun for me.


Sorry, I got this far and stopped. No no no. You cannot have rear attacking buff requirements in a game where there are mobs who's backs you cannot hit. We will be balanced around this and subsequently suffer an effective nerf when unable to attack the back of your target. Just no.


It's not my fault you got that far and stopped, as if one not-so-great idea somehow disqualifies the rest of it.

I would have shown you more courtesy. A shame you can't do the same for me. But ok!
08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
Feral Druid changes coming soon (this week):
  • Energy regeneration rate increased by 10%
  • Rip damage increased by 15%
  • Berserk duration increased from 15 to 20 sec
  • Brutal Slash cost reduced from 30 to 25 energy
  • Swipe cost reduced from 40 to 35 energy
  • Thrash cost reduced by from 45 to 40 energy, and damage reduced proportionally
  • We’re reducing the energy cost of Thrash but also proportionally reducing the damage. The goal is easier ramp-up time in AOE situations, while avoiding causing Thrash to be added to the single target rotation (since it's close to Shred's Energy to damage ratio), which we think wouldn’t make for a better overall rotation.
  • The spec's hidden 50% increase to Haste secondary stat value reduced to 25%.
  • This helps alleviate a secondary stat scaling issue, and both the Energy and damage loss should be overcompensated for by the increase to base Energy regeneration rate plus the other changes listed. We eventually want to remove this hidden bonus entirely, but since players have already made gearing choices based on Haste being their best secondary stat, we don’t want to upset that in the short-term, so we’ll do this in two parts.

The sum of these changes is intended and expected to be a increase in Energy income, pacing, and damage in all situations.

Other issues we've been talking about (future patch timeline):
  • Better consolidate Energy-increasing and heavy pacing-impacting talents into the same row, and reduce the pacing impact that a single talent has
  • The goal is to reduce the Energy/pacing swing between different talent builds, which allows us to bring up the bottom without letting the highest Energy/pacing talent build with endgame/late expansion gear to get near overflow range
  • Better separate Single Target talents and Multitarget Talents into their own rows
  • This is slightly more of a challenge on Druid specs than most specs, due to Druids having only 4 throughput talent rows (compared to most specs having 5), but it's a goal we have for all specs.
  • Provide better AOE talent options
  • Echoing suggestions - a combo-point spender is a possible direction. There may be an additional opportunity to do something with Thrash here. It functions as an enabler, but could be doing even more for the spec.
  • Bloodtalons
  • Bloodtalons does a great job at adding complexity to the rotation, but we're not sure the method in which it does that is right for the spec long-term. Bloodtalons asks you to frequently cast a Regrowth in exchange for its buff, which in a group/raid, means either you're required to keep an eye on group/raid frames (which is a lot to ask) or you make a macro to mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself (which isn't great).
  • Remove the spec’s bonus to Haste secondary stat (currently on live 50%, soon to be 25%) entirely. Re-adjust Energy/pacing to compensate.
  • Mentioned above, but now that Bleeds scale with Haste, it's both no longer needed to make Haste a relevant stat for Feral, and is also contributing to expansion-wide scaling issues.
  • Remove cat form’s 40% bonus to auto-attack damage.
  • This contributes to feedback that abilities don't hit hard enough and have low Energy to damage conversion ratios.

Note that as we've mentioned before, we're watching overall class tuning and plan to make a general tuning pass later next week.


Why do your change hinge so much on making the gear people have been collecting worthless and not correcting the real problem. Just not enough damage in anything. Brutal slash hits like a wet noodle.

I have played feral for 9 years and this is the worst they have ever been and I really don't understand on what basis you are deciding certain things need fixing and nothing else. It isn't fun hitting every single mob 8 times in world content with ilvl 330 gear.
:D
08/30/2018 07:52 AMPosted by Meowfurion
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Not saying we couldn't use more. But a lot of ferals aren't realizing our off healing potential right now. It's actually superb (with resto affinity). I really hope they keep this niche relevant for us and gear/health doesn't ruin this for us.

With that said, we could still use some quality of life there (make swiftmend and or rejuv castable in cat. It's brutal to unshift for an instant cast and be on gcd and lose AAs. The hard casts make sense to pull us out.) ... But again, we definitely could use a little something else as well.


I don't mean this to be rude at all, but I don't play a mDPS class to heal other people, and I don't expect another DPS to heal me in a boss fight, either.

The hybrid class setup for Druids died a very long time ago.


Not rude at all. I hear ya, but I also still disagree. The thing is, what else can feral offer that's unique from other melee dps? If we can bring a different utility then that sets us apart from others, and healing is very clutch.
I can agree maybe casting doesn't feel right and the "Hybrid" aspect shouldn't he there. But I still think healing should he our utility and maybe bring back nature's vigil, or something of the sort where we can offer utility through our output. Idk, off healing was always a utility feral brought that has been lost for awhile and is now back. I'm all good with scrapping it, so long as we get something else.

Edit: I see others saying they don't want to ever heal. Again, I hear ya, and im cool with other things being our utility, but again, what can we bring that other dpsers don't? The hybrid "feel" can still be present in a spec and it has been since vanilla (despite it moving further and further from that).
08/29/2018 05:43 PMPosted by Ttoki
meanwhill, WW has 20% of its DPS in a defense cooldown, seems good


ww healing is fine, only need 30 vivify to outheal rogue bleeds he not even on you btw.
08/30/2018 09:08 AMPosted by Rezuz
08/29/2018 05:43 PMPosted by Ttoki
meanwhill, WW has 20% of its DPS in a defense cooldown, seems good


ww healing is fine, only need 30 vivify to outheal rogue bleeds he not even on you btw.

same with death strike. can't even pvp this expansion for fear of getting autod once by a rogue
Why do your change hinge so much on making the gear people have been collecting worthless and not correcting the real problem


The haste scaling was the real problem. It was completely out of whack and was probably limiting their ability to make more substantive adjustments.

They dropped it from 50% to 25% specifically to avoid screwing people who had already made gear decisions. Removing it completely is the correct choice (and their ultimate goal).
08/29/2018 10:00 PMPosted by Sybille
Glad to see some much needed Feral love. One of the big reasons I swapped away from druid (my Emrill character) to this character (which I’m still debating about) was the poor flow of Feral gameplay. hopefully these changes work out and bring Feral up to be more on par with other DPS.


Mid-Cataclysm I switched to a rogue. At first, I felt conflicted about it. After all, with the exception of weapons, it is virtually the same types of gear I'd be wearing anyway. But, I did it for a couple reasons. 1.) Everyone kept asking me to tank/heal and I played feral (even in Classic) to dps, not those other things. 2.) Loot council nonsense from people at the time who didn't understand that feral and rogue offer the same thing (dps) with different utility.

Over the years, I became more and more convinced it was the right decision. For the above reasons, but also one more: Every expansion, Blizzard seemed to fundamentally either neglect and/or inadvertently nerf feral to unplayable levels which took many major content patches to finally bring back into line.

It's not that I dislike feral. All things told, that's where all my oldest raid achievements are at and that's where many of my older reps are at as well. I like the "idea" of feral. I do not like the "execution" of feral. It has been getting progressively worse over time and that's not fun.

I also considered switching to one of my oldest toons this expansion (my fire mage) and I'm glad I decided at the last minute before pre-launch to nip that one in the bud. To say I dodged a bullet on both feral and my mage is to understate it. I think both should be as fun as my rogue, but neither are at the moment.

My other half looked at feral this expansion, looked at me, and said, "Meh... I don't think it has gotten better, I am switching back to frost mage." I nodded and replied, "I'm sorry, I know you liked the playstyle as I did. But, you're right, it's not in a good place right now and likely isn't to be for a while. Besides, I'd rather you do more damage in a raid setting than be brought along because you're dating me." I got a frown and a nod in response. We both knew my words were true for many reasons.
08/30/2018 07:07 AMPosted by Wraithe
I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. In WotLK almost all of Feral's bonus dmg was applied by the actual melee abilities we used, with the exception of Savage Roar which if you remember only buffed our melee dmg not our bleeds. I wouldn't mind a return to that style of buffing. Maybe not as strict as it was in WotLK, since we also had to pay strict attention to the ORDER in which those melee buffs were applied, but something similar could work.

And with that thought, we could drop BT as a talent (not that I want to but I'm willing to compromise), bring back a melee ability like Mangle and have it be applied that way. I know the Ferals who were there at the time groan at the memory of Mangle, but it wouldn't have to be a dps loss to apply it if it was designed and tuned correctly. Maybe make this Mangle ability also work for buffing the bleeds of a group/raid. Would give added umph to having a Feral in your raid/group (and face it, there's only ever going to be one) as well as pumping up the Survival Hunter (again, just one) and your Arms Warriors, Rogues, etc. Anyway, just a thought.

Oooh.... had another thought, dunno if it's a good one but intriguing. What about FB applies an appropriately sized Savage Roar buff when used if you talent into it. Then leave in SbT for refreshing Rips, etc, etc. Hmmm.... We could truly let the dps abilities apply the buffs.

TLDR: Let's get rid of talents applying buffs to dps and instead allow the abilities to buff the dps.


I really don't want the return of the button masher build from wotlk or end of legion.

I posted a few pages back but yes, its about time mangle(bleed buff version) returned.
08/30/2018 07:38 AMPosted by Rockford
And the very last of the snippets from multiple posts, because it's extremely relevant in the subject of Bloodtalons:

Here's the problem. There is no spec besides Feral with a playstyle similar to bleed Feral.
Yeah, that's the kicker of a design that's so outdated. The fundamental basics of the design need to be stripped back. Get rid of this whole DD/Bleed subspec issue as it's obviously not working out.

Design a Feral that's enjoyable to play. Which has the niche in bleeds, but without the complete !@#$heap gameplay of BT. Design talents to augment the base gameplay without having to tune around completely separate subspecs. Honestly sound like a broken %^-*ing record with this issue!!!

Players have every right to avoid BT as it can feel !@#$ing cancerous to play!!!

Problem being if tuning favours one style or another, the players who enjoy a vastly different gameplay gets %^-*ed over, be it DD or Bleed!!!


If they enjoy Feral, and druid as a whole, absolutely should not be obligated to a talent that segregated the playerbase!

since Blizz can't balance both DD and bleeds - whenever DD is good, bleeds are trash, and when bleeds are good DD is trash
So in recognising this problem where ploarising subspecs seem only segregate Feral players, something needs to be done to the spec baseline!!!

Again, base gameplay needs to be enjoyable while focusing on bleeds with an enjoyable style. Talents need to only augment abilities while bringing slight advantages into particular encounters. Of which, the talents we currently have which are causing these issues need to be completely scrapped for modern designs.

BT in particular, is objectively cancerous to the problem in how much it promotes the sub-spec issue, and the polarisation of players that have dispute with how it plays.


I gotta say i just don't feel the same way about BT, There is absolutely nothing wrong with the play style of BT single target(energy pooling and bleeds) it just doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing one.

Feral has a pretty simple problem, it either needs to have godlike single target or it needs to have AOE, otherwise there's just no reason to bring one.

That being said, i have no issue with them getting rid of BT and replacing it with Mangle or something more streamlined if it means we can finally stop !@#$%ing about it and have proper balanced damage output.

I also think the design philosophy behind "Feral isn't supposed to be the Kings of AoE" needs to change because it feels less of "Shouldn't be top of AoE" and more like "Has to be garbage at AoE".
[edit to note; apparently it didn't add my quote and it's not letting me for some reason, and it took so long to hit post quite a bit of posts are between my intended reply regarding position requirement.... but i continue to go on about other problems i see with the current feral]

Actually you can, it just takes a moment of thought from a dev environment where bosses that force you to front face it, have a angle on the flanks that will allow you to consider it your back, FFXIV had 0 issues making this work I don't see why blizzard would either. I personally find positional requirements a lot more interesting, it did suck when you couldn't use the ability AT ALL when there were positional requirements, but dmg bonus on reqs makes sense to me.

More than anything, I want to see some form of utility returned to feral, anything feral has to bring currently isn't unique to feral, and is better served from literally any other spec because of the fact they aren't melee dps, and the other spec's typically have something else on top of the very few utility abilities we have.

Soothe was nice to bring back but is across every spec. kick is good, but why not just have a bear? stampeding roar is great, but again just bring a bear, typhoon's a good soft interrupt but again, just bring any other spec... we no long even offer an innervate for our supports to utilize.

We used to have leader of the pack which gave phys dmg crit,
We used to have mangle which increased bleed dmg for our party/raids,
Tranquility was an ability we had for raid wide boss mechanics,
We used to have MoTW which was a great raid wide buff, typically you had other specs to bring that but in parties or even 10man raids having that as feral was enough.
Faerie Fire used to be a thing too, 15% armor reduction on the target, i don't remember if resto/moonkin had this or if it was just feral (before guardian and feral split). iirc ours was stronger than the base one?

I'm sure I'm missing something, but the point is we used to actually bring something to a group... all of these things listed above have been stripped out, feral management compared has gotten fairly stale. It's only punishing, not really complex anymore. I'm fine with punishing, but all the things that were stripped away to make the feral skill gap smaller, has removed a lot of the reasons anyone would ever bring us slowly over time...

[edit2] I actually quite enjoy the mechanic of BT, keeping some form of complexity to the spec, I do find it fairly silly that it's tied to a heal that sometimes just feels silly to heal yourself for no reason, especially if you know there's upcoming dmg in the encounter but timing is just not lining up for you... but BT as an actual mechanic as a whole is interesting and I really enjoy the snapshotting aspect that feral still has.
08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
Feral Druid changes coming soon (this week):
Energy regeneration rate increased by 10%
Rip damage increased by 15%


These are good changes, though they will increase the value of only a couple talents (Namely Jagged Wounds and Bloodtalons) And do little to actually improve how Feral plays overall. But a good step in the right direction.

08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
Berserk duration increased from 15 to 20 sec


Not sure this even matters. The main problem with Berserk is that as a 3 min cd, it does nothing for the actual playstyle of Feral. Consider Afflictions new CD, it actually works with Aff's mechanics. Berserk does nothing that works with our bleeds, instead, it works with our direct damage. All this means is either our actual damage increase during its effect is small enough to be un-important when we use it, or we dump our energy in exchange for burst damage, often ruining our rotations. The main reason Incarnation is a better CD is not it's duration increase, but the fact that it actually improves one of our bleed effects(double damage rake). Baseline Berserk is nearly irrelevant in a bloodtalons build IMO.
I think Feral Frenzy should have been our 3 min CD (With it's damage increased to reflect the cd) Berserk could be dropped completely, and it wouldn't be much of a loss. Except for spamming swipe on trash I guess...

08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
Brutal Slash cost reduced from 30 to 25 energy
Swipe cost reduced from 40 to 35 energy


These are incredibly nice quality of life changes. It kinda sucks that my energy regen is so low that the limiting factor of BS is that I run out of energy, not charges. Hopefully this will help with that problem.

08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
Thrash cost reduced by from 45 to 40 energy, and damage reduced proportionally
We’re reducing the energy cost of Thrash but also proportionally reducing the damage. The goal is easier ramp-up time in AOE situations, while avoiding causing Thrash to be added to the single target rotation (since it's close to Shred's Energy to damage ratio), which we think wouldn’t make for a better overall rotation.


This change is a strange one. It's one of the reasons some ferals often accuse Devs of not knowing how to play Feral. I have an Azeroth Talent that says I have to use Thrash in single target to boost the damage of Shred. Yet you claim you don't want that behavior.. and because of your contradicting your own statements, I have to ask why not? I mean why is it a big deal when Thrash is a dot. We might spam Shred, we don't spam Thrash, we use it and let it run down and refresh, same as rake.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other. I just want consistency. If no Thrash in single target, stop making mechanics that require / promote it.

08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
The spec's hidden 50% increase to Haste secondary stat value reduced to 25%.
This helps alleviate a secondary stat scaling issue, and both the Energy and damage loss should be overcompensated for by the increase to base Energy regeneration rate plus the other changes listed. We eventually want to remove this hidden bonus entirely, but since players have already made gearing choices based on Haste being their best secondary stat, we don’t want to upset that in the short-term, so we’ll do this in two parts.


I am surprised this didn't get fixed in alpha, or beta, or prepatch... Either way, please keep a close eye on things that this effects. Like Omen of Clarity, which you nerfed (I'm assuming) in response to how much Ferals would want haste in this expansion. Omen is under-performing now, due to its reduced proc rate, when we start loosing haste it will drop even more in its overall value. Please fix it as some of us enjoy the gameplay mechanics of it but don't like how non-competitive it is currently.
Personally, I would rather you just rip the band-aid off quickly. I don't want to re-gear more than once. /shrug

08/29/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Seph
The sum of these changes is intended and expected to be a increase in Energy income, pacing, and damage in all situations.


One benefit of being at the bottom is that it's hard to get a lower ranking. :p
Here's hoping the changes make a difference.
Bloodtalons isn't a terrible talent, it has some good interplay with how Feral functions and allows strong Feral players to shine.

When the talent came out.

While it might not feel like much time has passed since Bloodtalons was introduced, it's design has no adapted for the design philosophy of encounters from recent expansions.

A slight encounter mechanic altering your "flow" and suddenly you're playing catch-up. Savage Roar is just as bad for this problem.

Most encounters now always have interrupting/rp phases/immune phases which just means the Feral has to spend more time ramping up.

With all DPS being roughly tuned across the board, why would you bring this when others don't have such ramp up issues and an interruptive phase hurts them as much as everyone else?
08/30/2018 10:06 AMPosted by Tewdee
With all DPS being roughly tuned across the board, why would you bring this when others don't have such ramp up issues and an interruptive phase hurts them as much as everyone else?


I remember when rogues had ramp-ups to their ramp-ups. It was tedious, time-consuming, and terrible in any case where we had to switch targets in any raid environment. It was not a fun mechanic to know it would take you almost 2 minutes to get back to a reasonable level. So, I feel your pain there.

There's always, however, going to be a ramp-up in any class that has a combo-point generator and finisher (think feral, rogues, ret paladins with holy power and finishers [which are just not named that], or arcane mages - there are others, but those are the ones that come to mind). I'm not necessarily opposed to that. We're not necessarily a warrior or fire mage (though, icicles and fingers of frost strikes me as very similar in concept if not name for frost mages). What you're arguing, I think, is that the ramp-up period is too long; that is actionable and should be fixable.
Feral Druid changes coming soon (this week):
  • Energy regeneration rate increased by 10%
  • Rip damage increased by 15%
  • Berserk duration increased from 15 to 20 sec
  • Brutal Slash cost reduced from 30 to 25 energy
  • Swipe cost reduced from 40 to 35 energy
  • Thrash cost reduced by from 45 to 40 energy, and damage reduced proportionally
  • We’re reducing the energy cost of Thrash but also proportionally reducing the damage. The goal is easier ramp-up time in AOE situations, while avoiding causing Thrash to be added to the single target rotation (since it's close to Shred's Energy to damage ratio), which we think wouldn’t make for a better overall rotation.
  • The spec's hidden 50% increase to Haste secondary stat value reduced to 25%.


  • Wow just wow. This is the solution? Does Blizzard even get that the spec is slow AND does garbage damage?

    10% extra energy BUT we reduced your energy regen by eliminating half the haste buff.

    Rip damage increase BUT all bleeds nerfed by eliminating half the haste buff.

    30% increase to Berserk that's still a 3 min CD. Here's a thought to make it more useful, make it more USABLE and lower the CD.

    AoE energy cost reduced (great!) BUT AoE damage reduced because it does similar damage to our garbage single target ability.

    That's not even mentioning the word jumble after that which amounted to more haste nerfs (less energy less bleed damage) and less auto attack damage (really a damage nerf!?!?!?).

    I get the whole "wait to see how it plays out" thing but seriously where in any of this is the spec sped up or damage increased? I don't see anything in this that actually helps.

    Just get rid of the damn energy bar already. We don't need a GCD, internal CD, combo point limit AND energy bar. All it does is throttle the spec needlessly.

    Balance the AoE abilities so they don't hit every target harder than single target ones (ie. raise single target damage not lower AoE).

    Make FB do a more consistent damage (ie. My FB damage is anywhere from 8k to 32k which is just too damn unreliable).

    Make AoE work the same as single target (which only works by eliminating the energy bar). Smaller easy to use combo builders DD AoE Swipe mixxed with spreading Rake and a big damage combo spender AoE DoT Thrash.

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