Class Fantasy - MM Specialization Design 101

Hunter
Blizzard Logic

Legion announcement - new buzz phrase , Class Fantasy.

Legion preview - Blizzard describes Marksman Hunter as a ‘sniper in hiding’.

Legion prepatch - Marksman Hunter has no camouflage baseline. Playstyle is ‘spray and pray snake shooter’.

Battle for Azeroth beta - Builds a Marksman Hunter specialization that plays like a sniper, ignores all feedback that this does not work well in an MMO.

Battle for Azeroth prepatch - sniper spec players take sniper-like talents, plays like a sniper... other players cry foul.. Blizzard nerfs sniper gameplay into oblivion with no compensation. Sniper spec not only no longer lives up to the phrase ‘one shot, one kill’, but can’t even pull off ‘death by a thousand cuts’.

Battle for Azeroth launch - no one plays Marksman Hunter.

Thanks Blizzard.
pretty much on point
MM hunters standing with Shamans in the 8.1 revamp line hoping their number gets pulled.
The worst part is that the artifact is the best looking and even gives you a quiver with arrows :'(
08/07/2018 04:10 PMPosted by Sylvaron
Battle for Azeroth prepatch - sniper spec players take sniper-like talents, plays like a sniper... other players cry foul.

It wasn't even other players that cried foul; there were far more complaints about rogues and even about discipline priests. Rogues cried foul and got shouted down - what rogues really don't like is hunter's mark, not the sniper abilities that got nerfed - and theorycrafters who didn't understand the details of how the spec really worked.
08/08/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Stripendella
MM hunters standing with Shamans in the 8.1 revamp line hoping their number gets pulled.


need to make some noise because apparently shadow priests are waiting too
08/08/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Nyalico
The worst part is that the artifact is the best looking and even gives you a quiver with arrows :'(
Blizz sucks with their xmog restrictions... It doesn't make sense that a Hunter can't use a depowered bow, but Ok Blizz - My warrior is still mogging dual-weilding Runestaff of Nordrasill because that makes sense.

I'm enjoying the new BM and SV, but I'm not as much of a fan of MM. I don't understand why you couldn't develop a sniper-lite build focusing around building up focus off smaller shots and then unloading. It's an odd spec that I don't understand very well.

8.1 is seeing Ele, Enh and Shadow be reworked, but MM is essentially done. This is the spec for BfA and tuning numbers won't change its gameplay unless Blizz backtracks on something.
08/08/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Reimmi
08/08/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Stripendella
MM hunters standing with Shamans in the 8.1 revamp line hoping their number gets pulled.

need to make some noise because apparently shadow priests are waiting too

They can take a seat with that because their spec is above even SV hunters on the mythic raid charts meanwhile poor warlocks with their Kelly (destr) and michelle (demo) specs get out shined by Beyonce (afflic)
If they dont fix mm in 8.1 people arent gonna be happy. The hunter community as a whole is pretty pissed. Lets be honest most of us play huntets for mm. Not bm or sv seeing the state its in they should fix it
They didn't mention it like they did for shamans and spriests so I don't have a whole lot of hope. I think they consider it good enough.
I just don’t like how they’ve added 3 new classes into the game since wotlk and all 8 of those specs are melee dps tank and one heal spec. 0 ranged and then they turn surv into a melee spec too? And now MM is garbage. It just feels broken. Had to switch to bm. Don’t really want to rely on a pet but oh well. I don’t want to ply surv. I switched from warrior and rogue I don’t want to play melee anymore. :/
08/08/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Varrege
If they dont fix mm in 8.1 people arent gonna be happy. The hunter community as a whole is pretty pissed. Lets be honest most of us play huntets for mm. Not bm or sv seeing the state its in they should fix it
Let's be honest.

This is a false statement.

Back in TBC everyone was BM. Really early WotLK SV was tops until it turned out that it just didn't scale with gear. In WoD people played BM through BRF. You played MM because it was the highest DPS spec for a Hunter.

I mean, I like MM, but in truth the MAJORITY of players will do whatever they feel like playing which generally defaults to the highest DPS spec. Should the buff the numbers and maybe spice up the gameplay in a way? Yeah. Do they have to do this or the entire Hunter community will revolt!!? No. That's silly.

I'd rather see MM buffed because there would be more variety to go with, but honestly the Hunter community has been A-Ok letting one or two of it's specs play like absolute crap/deal absolute crap damage as long as there was another outlet.

Frankly, Blizz has been content with this for Hunters since... Vanilla? I think that they'd even be happy to force folks from MM and into the other two specs which were vastly improved and outside of people still going "LAWL BM HUNTARD HAHANEWBZ' or 'MELEE LOLS' are very well received. If MM was king of an entire expansion and was just gutted... and is seen as sort of a 'meh' iteration... I mean just for reference they killed Demo in Legion because they didn't want folks playing the spec and wanted the attention on Demon Hunters. We still saw a !@#$load of Warlocks in Legion though!
08/09/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Ashrynn
the Hunter community has been A-Ok letting one or two of it's specs play like absolute crap/deal absolute crap damage as long as there was another outlet.


This was largely the case up until Legion because there was enough similarity between the 3 specs that they all felt like hunters. But with Legion and ‘class fantasy’, they totally altered that paradigm though. If your personal class fantasy for hunters mostly revolved around being an archer/shooter you are stuck with just one option. BfA changed BM back to ranged light rather than remote control melee... so at least we have a less than desirable yet mostly acceptable alternative.
MM just has very little in the way of synergy between abilities. And it ends up being a damage loss on multi-target if you have a pet for the utility that other Hunters provide baseline. All in all, it feels like you lose out if you play MM.
08/09/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Sylvaron
08/09/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Ashrynn
the Hunter community has been A-Ok letting one or two of it's specs play like absolute crap/deal absolute crap damage as long as there was another outlet.


This was largely the case up until Legion because there was enough similarity between the 3 specs that they all felt like hunters. But with Legion and ‘class fantasy’, they totally altered that paradigm though. If your personal class fantasy for hunters mostly revolved around being an archer/shooter you are stuck with just one option. BfA changed BM back to ranged light rather than remote control melee... so at least we have a less than desirable yet mostly acceptable alternative.
Umm... I don't want to disagree, but...

This has just always been the case. In the early days..(by early I mean maybe pre-MoP, but I still think MM was the top spec the entire time if I'm not mistaken. At least it started high and ended high) Hunters would all go one spec and MM/BM have played differently for much longer than Legion. SV definitely had a drastically different style to MM and I'd say that this has been the case since at least WotLK.

Class Fantasy wise, you are more correct. SV never had a stated theme so it was essentially just another archer with less differences between it and MM than a Subt and !@#. Rogues for instance. But it's playstyle was very different and a lot of people loved it. Same people would throw it in the trash the moment MM was parsing better.

That's been the history of our development and we're really not the only ones. I'm just saying we should be asking for them to tune MM and suggest ideas on how and why it needs the changed. Instead the majority of the posts kind of all read the same:

"I like MM. You ruined MM. Make MM Better so we can just play MM more. MM IS BEST."

It's not that I disagree. It's that there are so many Hunters who won't give BM or SV a shot at all. I guess the stigma I'm getting lately is that MM should be king, forever and always and if that's not the case THEN the 'Hunter Community' will revolt and... No, that just isn't happening.

Every single expansion and on quite a few patches we've had this happen with Hunters. One spec or two are just dominant(Btw's it was just one for the looooongest time in PvE) and again the community has been ok with it. It's more vocal when MM is taken off the throne, but that's largely due to BM being made overly simplistic throughout nearly every iteration. Yes, people used to complain about being forced from MM to SV, but that's(to my recollection) not really been a thing as old SV always had scaling issues so it really didn't compete with MM. It's less to do with people loving SV 'similar' fantasy and more to do with it not really being required to use at any point.

And the cynic in me thinks that if I worked on the Dev team and I wanted to force players to shut up and play the stuff that's finally fixed after being broken for years(not an understatement).. I'd just dismantle the top spec and put the other two ahead. Blizz has made similar decisions in the past and the community for Hunters is way less vocal and not at all organized in any real way.

MoP MM was probably my favorite time to play the spec and I've hated being pigeon-holed into being MM past that point. It was refreshing to finally use another spec in WoD, but it lasted through BRF and was back to running MM. Legion just wrecked BM further and SV wasn't just a melee spec, it was broken. SV was an incomplete spec so realistically we all had to be MM to be reliable for raids. BM lagged too far behind in damage and SV could be competitive, but had to put in 300% of the effort to do less damage then your core melee team traditionally. BM became good for M+, but if I'm not mistaken MM's higher damage output was favored as you started to push higher.
I usually don't post, but I am trying to switch mains into a Hunter, however, I came up not liking the spec that I wanted to play (MM).
Is there a way that all hunters can make a single thread where all can post what they like and what they don't like and ask Blizzard to change all of those things, instead of just making lots of threads no one is gonna read because of how many there are?
Is it possible to do this? I really wanted to play MM when it lost the pet (I don't like pets) and gained Lone Wolf, but I'm afraid that this "class fantasy" and skills they are trying to make good aren't exactly good. I don't understand why BM has complete free movement while MM hasn't. They are both using a bow and they both have to aim, so why is it that only MM has to stand still? I think either make them both cast or make neither cast.
08/09/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Homika
I usually don't post, but I am trying to switch mains into a Hunter, however, I came up not liking the spec that I wanted to play (MM).
Is there a way that all hunters can make a single thread where all can post what they like and what they don't like and ask Blizzard to change all of those things, instead of just making lots of threads no one is gonna read because of how many there are?
Is it possible to do this? I really wanted to play MM when it lost the pet (I don't like pets) and gained Lone Wolf, but I'm afraid that this "class fantasy" and skills they are trying to make good aren't exactly good. I don't understand why BM has complete free movement while MM hasn't. They are both using a bow and they both have to aim, so why is it that only MM has to stand still? I think either make them both cast or make neither cast.
Yes, because this would... fix things?

If MM has a bad rotation then it needs to be fixed. Wanting to no longer have any casts or turn a spec with all instants into a caster to "MAKE IT FAIR" is a horrible argument to make. You don't want to make something better, you essentially just want to make something else worse so you feel better playing your pick. Like it or not, the MM fantasy is about being patient and lining up the right shots. If you run around like a mad-man while firing off non-stop then... you don't even have your class fantasy. You have a noisy idiot firing off random shots and hoping for a kill(and people complained when they basically were doing something very similar :D!!!).

BM has instant casts, true. But we also have a buggy pet AI which you just stated you don't want to deal with having a pet. So you have the advantage of not having your damage tied to your pet, meaning target swapping fights should always be in your favor. Or spread AoE which I think should be something MM does better than MM and SV.

I think MM could do with Aspect of the Fox again, but make it so it only works for MM and not the whole raid. AoF let you cast while moving and lasted for a bit of time on a 3 min CD(if I recall correctly). That would probably make the movement of MM better, but not !@#$ all over it's class fantasy and rip away the advantage BM has for dealing with a pet AI.

From there I think tuning the numbers for MM would be fair as any class that deals slow damage should be hitting harder with those shots. But if they don't do any of this? Then MM will likely not be in the best state until much later as it normally scales better than the other specs with gearing.
08/09/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Ashrynn
I think MM could do with Aspect of the Fox again, but make it so it only works for MM and not the whole raid.

The version of AotF that you are speaking of was a short-lived raid buff. I think it lasted one or two raid tiers?. The REAL AotF that we had for 4 years allowed all of our abilities to be cast while moving for as long as we chose to use that aspect. The price for this was a loss of Aspect of the Hawk (or Dragon Hawk). I.e. a loss of ~10% damage. It was a good damage vs mobility choice. WoD mastery did it better imo, but that particular choice has been a theme for hunter for a LONG time.

Legion totally lost that, but BfA ostensibly is bringing it back. When the beta first started, Arcane Shot was doing 76% of Aimed Shots DPM and DPCT. It was in a pretty good place. If we wanted to be mobile we could cast Arcane, if we found a chance to stand still we cast Aimed.

Then they started tacking on more damage into Aimed Shot*. The biggest offenders are Precise Shots and Careful Aim. Not only did these two things make regular Aimed and Arcane feel weak, but Precise Shots specifically reduced the viability of the mobility vs. damage choice that the spec was doing so well on.

I have been begging for the removal of these two things since the day they put them in. They ruin the spec. Their removal would not solve all the problems, not even close, but it would solve two big ones:

-- Regular Aimed and regular Arcane would feel good again.
-- The choice between damage and mobility would feel more like a choice because mobility would be less punishing to damage, like it was in the beginning.

* They also reduced Aimed Shots cast time by 20%. This was a necessary change, but they didn't change the damage on Arcane Shot to compensate, so this further reduced the viability of the mobility vs damage choice.
As I said, I was more into the if MM has to cast shots, why BM doesn't need to? Honestly I don't think it's precisely fair tbh, but oh well, I'd rather cast than had to deal with a pet.
My problem is more into the rotation, I don't really understand why everything is dependent on Aimed Shot and why is it so dull. I remember MM in WoD wasn't that boring, not even in Legion was that boring tbh. I would like if they made at least explosive shot into a past version, like for example WotLK version. And probably adding Black Arrow to the rotation would work just fine. I don't mind to keep those 2 up as DoT's while casting Aimed Shot as a filler. Maybe that would make it a bit more engaging?
08/09/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Ashrynn
Umm... I don't want to disagree, but...


So are you saying that the fact that the 3 specs had much more in common prior to Legion did not make many more inclined to be less critical when the spec that represented their favored playstyle/fantasy was underperforming than the situation that basically created 3 mini classes?

BTW Aspect of the Fox was originally a personal ‘stance’ like Aspect of the Hawk that lasted until canceled or switched and allowed you to cast on the move at the lost of the % buff to RAP from Hawk.

08/09/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Homika
s there a way that all hunters can make a single thread where all can post what they like and what they don't like and ask Blizzard to change all of those things


We tried that. Let’s talk, Let’s talk 2, 8.0 MM feedback and many more. Mostly ignored.

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