Was Forsaken in the Horde a mistake?

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I liked their being more then 2 factions playable in WC3, and with how Sylvanas and her forsaken have influenced the horde into a darker direction, was it really a smart idea to bring them into the family?

I wonder what a Warcraft would be without Sylvanas joining the Horde ranks.

Maybe she and her forces could have been allies towards the horde from time to time while never officially joining the faction.

I wonder what Thralls view is on the current Horde now. Would he have regret in allowing Sylvanas to join since she is now responsible for leading the Horde into a World War, not upholding honor via murdering innocents and committing genocide?
I don't think it was a good idea for the Horde. It was probably good for the Forsaken.
From an in-lore perspective, no; the Tauren, Hamuul particularly, thought they could find a cure or remedy for the state the Forsaken were in. That's why there's Forsaken in Thunder Bluff. Thrall also appreciated having an extension in the EK.

From a meta perspective, eh, maybe? The alternative, if we're keeping a two-faction game, is to put Night Elves on Horde and Forsaken on Alliance.
The Forsaken? No, they weren't a mistake. They're not a hivemind. Every one of them is different, and not all of them would blindly follow Sylvanas. They're every bit apart of my family as the rest of The Horde. Sylvanas herself is another story though.

The biggest problem right now is that there really isn't anyone on the Horde who can challenge Sylvanas. Most of the OGs who could have, are either dead or gone at this point.

As for Thrall, I'm sure he's gonna be pretty disgusted, and I don't expect him to sit idly by and watch. I think it's obvious Thrall will have an important role to play in BfA.
I'll quote an old post I made last year for my thoughts on this.

The Forsaken. Man, the Forsaken. I'm really kind of disappointed with the Forsaken.

There's a lot of really interesting stories you could tell with the Forsaken and the Horde. These are the people of Lordaeron. They fought and died against the Horde in a massive war. And now, in their darkest hour, their old comrades reject and fear them-but their old enemies accept them. Help them. Defend them. It could be the ultimate expression of "The Horde is family" concept.

Unfortunately, it's rarely how the story has gone.

Forsaken: Ohoohohooho, I'm plotting something deliciously eeeevvvilll, mwwaahahaha!
Rest of the Horde: I really don't trust those dastardly Forsaken. I hope they don't do something terrible!
Forsaken: *does something terrible*
Rest of the Horde: Oh you scamps!
08/09/2018 07:46 PMPosted by Rokugan
From an in-lore perspective, no; the Tauren, Hamuul particularly, thought they could find a cure or remedy for the state the Forsaken were in. That's why there's Forsaken in Thunder Bluff. Thrall also appreciated having an extension in the EK.

From a meta perspective, eh, maybe? The alternative, if we're keeping a two-faction game, is to put Night Elves on Horde and Forsaken on Alliance.


I legit think that would have been pretty interesting, actually.

The earlier versions of the night elves were pretty savage, and the orcs were still rather keen on nature. They would have made an interesting pair. Having Allied Forsaken would have made the faction more compelling.

Then you could have blood elves as part of the Alliance, and maybe a more Lost One/Broken version of the Draenei being uplifted by the Horde as part of the faction's redemption. I like the Draenei we got, but it's fun to speculate.

That'd change the storyline considerably, but I guess you could eventually have goblins join the Horde, and the worgen would still fit in the Alliance, maybe this time as buddies of the Forsaken (as walking corpses, they can sympathize with others who are also seen as monsters).
08/09/2018 07:40 PMPosted by Arindehla
I liked their being more then 2 factions playable in WC3, and with how Sylvanas and her forsaken have influenced the horde into a darker direction, was it really a smart idea to bring them into the family?

I wonder what a Warcraft would be without Sylvanas joining the Horde ranks.

Maybe she and her forces could have been allies towards the horde from time to time while never officially joining the faction.

I wonder what Thralls view is on the current Horde now. Would he have regret in allowing Sylvanas to join since she is now responsible for leading the Horde into a World War, not upholding honor via murdering innocents and committing genocide?


Well are you asking in or out of character?

Out of character Sylvanas does openly state she and her people all died under the banner of the Alliance and in return the Alliance attacked them; while what she did to Garithos does undermine that remember Garithos was just a warlord and only she knew how Garithos died.

So if they weren't part of the Horde I could imagine them joining the Alliance and from there development depends on if she is evil anyway and just has different targets or if her being evil is sourced to being rejected by the living.

If the Forsaken had been in the Alliance that would have meant that the Warsong do not invade Ashenvale and the Night Elves are in the Horde as a result.

That actually could have meant more balanced factions in Vanilla resulting in Blood Elves for the Alliance (they had planned to make an NPC Silvermoon in 1.6 for Alliance but changed their mind) and possibly Draenei for the Horde but that would have created the massive imbalance of Vanilla in Burning Crusade so the Horde would have needed a new pretty race in Wrath.

The Alliance would certainly be more interesting with evil Forsaken on their side, and I could imagine actual funding for attempting to find a cure for Undeath would be lorewise nearly unlimited if the Undead were an Alliance instead of Horde faction.
08/09/2018 07:43 PMPosted by Felya
I don't think it was a good idea for the Horde. It was probably good for the Forsaken.


I wouldn't be so sure. The Forsaken brought some really crucial things - arcane magic and complex engineering, most notably - to the Horde that they otherwise wouldn't have had access to.

08/09/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Casina
That actually could have meant more balanced factions in Vanilla resulting in Blood Elves for the Alliance (they had planned to make an NPC Silvermoon in 1.6 for Alliance but changed their mind) and possibly Draenei for the Horde but that would have created the massive imbalance of Vanilla in Burning Crusade so the Horde would have needed a new pretty race in Wrath.

The Alliance would certainly be more interesting with evil Forsaken on their side, and I could imagine actual funding for attempting to find a cure for Undeath would be lorewise nearly unlimited if the Undead were an Alliance instead of Horde faction.


I think Blizz wanted each faction to have a smaller presence in the other continent, for PvP purposes. However, I think they could still have gotten around it - say, by having humans start in Theramore, and maybe trolls in Stranglethorn?
I think it was a mistake to implement them under the psychopathic/dark humor/amoral identity that they've had since Vanilla.

They just don't connect well with the other Horde races.

They're honestly a scar on the faction's primary identity.
It would have been a great idea had the Horde rubbed off on the Forsaken. Especially after the death of the Lich King. It would have been awesome for the Forsaken to be more honorable and family woven since their revenge quest would have been completed. This would also prove the Forsaken are not monsters, and can get along with other races, especially if those races are fighting for survival. Just imagine if instead of Sylvanas jumping off of Icecrown, she would look at her family, the Horde, smile, and try to at least learn something from her family. In short it would have been great if the Forsaken had some development from the Horde.

Instead it has become horrible because not only did the Forsaken not improve, they have also broken the Horde. Sylvanas and the Forsaken have brought the Horde down to their level. She has undone the entire work of Thrall. She has proven the Forsaken are the monsters everyone claims them to be. Maybe Anduin doesn't see it because he's Gary Stu, but others like Jaina see it. Even some players approve of this, embracing Sylvanas' Honorless Horde. It just reminds me of Gul'dan's Horde, survival and power hunger at any cost, even your own self.
08/09/2018 08:14 PMPosted by Yagarr
They just don't connect well with the other Horde races.

Yeah, that's sort of written on the tin.

I dunno, after the Wrathgate, I hated the crap out of the Forsaken for years, but then I realized if anyone needs the Horde, it's them.
08/09/2018 08:13 PMPosted by Zengashi
08/09/2018 07:43 PMPosted by Felya
I don't think it was a good idea for the Horde. It was probably good for the Forsaken.


I wouldn't be so sure. The Forsaken brought some really crucial things - arcane magic and complex engineering, most notably - to the Horde that they otherwise wouldn't have had access to.

08/09/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Casina
That actually could have meant more balanced factions in Vanilla resulting in Blood Elves for the Alliance (they had planned to make an NPC Silvermoon in 1.6 for Alliance but changed their mind) and possibly Draenei for the Horde but that would have created the massive imbalance of Vanilla in Burning Crusade so the Horde would have needed a new pretty race in Wrath.

The Alliance would certainly be more interesting with evil Forsaken on their side, and I could imagine actual funding for attempting to find a cure for Undeath would be lorewise nearly unlimited if the Undead were an Alliance instead of Horde faction.


I think Blizz wanted each faction to have a smaller presence in the other continent, for PvP purposes. However, I think they could still have gotten around it - say, by having humans start in Theramore, and maybe trolls in Stranglethorn?


That could have easily worked with the boats/zeppelins available and would have resulted in equivalent PvP opportunity.
Forsaken in the Horde was a weird decision by Blizzard from a lore perspective. And frankly it was only done because a lot of WoW's early numbers came from the wc3 people. Forsaken satisfied the crowd who enjoyed playing ladder as undead. It's the same reason why night elves were latched onto the Alliance. Does it make sense? Not really, but so many years have gone by that it would be weird for the Forsaken to be anything but Horde. The only other alternative during vanilla would have been to somehow make them a neutral group or even just another target for murder hobos. And then I suppose the Horde could have had ogres (or even night elves). While the Alliance would have got blood elves or something.

From a lore perspective, the Forsaken have always been like a satellite faction within the Horde. They were part of the Horde, but also operated independently from the Kalimdor races which have always been more centralized. The same really applies to the blood elves. This means a lot of the questionable stuff they did could easily be overlooked. And honestly that's where they should have remained - as a satellite faction. Because that's also where their central character is at her best in the shadows. If you took the Forsaken away, the Horde and Alliance would probably be less at each other's throats. The trade off being that the Horde would be weaker without the undead. But that's assuming the Horde wouldn't have had a race to stand in for the Forsaken at launch.
Not necessarily a mistake, but I'd say they have not been well handled. They needed a more delicate and consistent touch, and a better long-term goal than revenge on the guy who died in the second expac.

That said, I doubt anyone could have realized how long WoW would last or how these problems would snowball.

That said, the way they've decided to double down on Forsaken amorality and make it into the dominant flavor of the Horde was not, IMHO, the way to deal with those problems.
A thing to understand is that Blizzard had no long term plans for WoW when they started making it.

World of Warcraft was originally envision and created as a spinoff, not as the dominating force of the franchise.

I'm certain at some point late beta or early vanilla they started gearing WoW to be the front of Warcraft for the forseeable future, but at first it wasn't supposed to be. It was more "Wouldn't it be cool to be able to explore this world?" type of idea.

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