Remember when they nerfed XP...

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Also you wanna know how long I think leveling should take from a fresh character to cap, no heirlooms?

I'd say about 20 hours. Maybe 24-28 hours at the high end. At 2-4 hours of play time per day, that's 5-14 days of leveling to hit the cap.

If that seems unreasonable because you're gaining a level every 10-15 minutes under that model, I submit to you that maybe it's not because of a problem with the pace of the overall leveling experience, but because there are just too dang many levels to get through in the game. The more levels you have, the faster a player needs to progress through them in order to maintain the same experience. Otherwise you're just making the leveling process longer and longer and longer with every expansion, and that's ridiculously unsustainable.

If a player is gaining a level every 15 minutes on average and a dungeon run takes 30 minutes then, yeah, they should ideally level around twice during that dungeon. If they don't, then dungeons aren't worth doing. Period. That's how this works. The rewards need to be proportional to the time investment and right now they aren't even close. I don't see what's so hard about this.

It took me about that long to level to 60 in Vanilla. If it takes the same amount of time to get twice as far, that is much easier today. Just because you don't like an argument doesn't make it invalid. The other purpose of the leveling process taking any amount of time is to allow the player to actually experience the 14 years of content already released. Do you really want to outlevel an entire xpac (or three) simply by flying over it? Because it seems that's what the whiners are after.


Congratulations, you were around 14 years ago and keep using the same piss poor argument that many others have. It doesn't matter what leveling was like almost twenty years ago.And that self absorbed notion that it does matter is arrogant to no end. Back in Nilla all of that content was relevant to the overall experience of the game. WoW was brand new and the programmers knew they didn't have enough quests to level you to cap. It was all relevant content however to that first game. It helped to enrich and immerse you into the game because you were actually doing things that progressed not just yourself but it felt like you were adding to the story.

Now absolutely none of the quests pertain to any of the new expansion story until you're up to the last ten levels that bring the new content to you. Many of the old quests are disjointed and changed if not removed. There is no sense of progression or being relevant.

Also keep in mind that in fourteen years the playerbase has added in at least a new generation to it's ranks one that while it wont shy away from challenge with get bored and move on with repetition quite quickly.

I have. But I took the time to make a new class (priest). That meant learning something new. And I still managed a level every 45 minutes or so. Considering it took me a month to get from 50-60 the first time around, this seems a bit quicker.

I was just reading a post on Reddit about a guy who leveled from 10 to 110 in a week. If you are having issues, maybe the problem is you, not the game.


And then you go and try to invalidate any response but your own forgetting that some players actually have lives and are severely limited in their game time 1-3 hours a day if lucky some don't even get that. Now add up how many days THAT leveling experience turns into and you begin to get the bigger picture of what the players are complaining about. People login stare at thier character selection look at their lowbie and realize how much more of a climb they got and begin to get frustrated. Over the days the frustration mounts into a deep ennui about the game in general or resentment and that causes them to post.

Lets be frank here. The leveling issue is indeed real The questing hasn't changed in eight years for the longest slog, warlords leveling is still broken, and dungeouns have become a punishment rather than a fun thing to do. Grouping with friends has become a punishment, in short there were plenty of people that were content to just leave things alone and do their thing until that option to do their thing got removed. Now people are understandably upset thats what happens when you try and force millions of people into a cookie cutter this is how it is setting.

BfA is going to flop for reasons completely unrelated to the story.
1.Lack of Choices on how to level
2.One half of it's selling point is supposedly leveling the allied races that you spend weeks grinding to unlock.
3. New players are going to see all this disjointed questing and toss it to the wayside and leave
4. The starting world for 60 levels now is ugly as sin even outlands is showing it's age. Petty as it sounds that will be a turn off for players as well.
5. When even the more patient new players with a life realize after almost a month that they still got to do this experience 7 more times they'll say screw it an leave.
08/12/2018 04:24 AMPosted by Kagehiro
"I don't want to have to put any effort into getting the thing I want."


(Smacked by Blizzard) “Sir May I have another!”
08/12/2018 05:49 AMPosted by Väinämöinen
My problem with all this:
I spent how much gold on Heirlooms that don't work as advertised anymore.


These types of statements are a key problem in this discussion.
Heirlooms absolutely do still work as advertised. They are meant to be gear that scales with you as you level and never needs to be replaced, and gear that offers you experience and other power bonuses to make you more powerful and level faster than otherwise.

They were, however, nerfed in their relative power, but as I mentioned, are now stronger by proxy thanks to the ilvl squish compacting power jumps between expansions - something heirlooms REALLY struggled to account for in the old system.

That's really not a legitimate gripe, and I feel like a large majority of what people want here is just to completely revert everything that happened.

That's not going to happen, guys.

I know many of you guys see me on these leveling threads all the time, but you have to understand what I am offering is Blizzard's perspective.

Most posters make threads and discuss what THEY want, but I am trying to help you understand what the people who design the game want, and if you understand that you can better come to terms with why these decisions have been made and why they will be best for the game long term.

I wanted to make that clear as others have said I am not receptive to the other side of the argument.

In truth, I embody the other side of the argument. If it were up to me solely, leveling would be removed outright, and replaced with an entirely optional, and exceedingly difficult system. I don't talk about these ideas, or make threads on them, because its not the time or place to consider that feasible, but those are things that I want.

Instead, what I offer is logic based on the game's current trajectory.
They will not be making 300 percent exp potions or 5 man dungeons you can solo a part of the game again. You will not be getting 5 levels from a single dungeon, or be going 1-100 standing in Org in 20 hours.
Those days are over, and they are not judging on current visible trajectory.

Not with Heritage gear being a thing, and certainly not with Classic on the horizon.

What we SHOULD be discussing is how to make this current system of leveling even better. If you guys have a good idea, then have at it! I don't always have time to read all the posts, so if you feel like you already have put a good idea forward, consider making an entire thread for it.
Unfortunately, the early comments are usually what dictate the pace of the thread, and the original post is not inline with what might help the situation.

Anyway, again I offer the suggestion that if leveling is not fun for you, then please take a break from it. I say that because it seems really unhealthy how upset some of you guys are about this topic. For a long-term player leveling should be for fun and enjoyment first and foremost, so if you are ever concerned with how long it takes or rushing through it, then a break can help you reevaluate why you are doing it.

After today, I'm going to be focusing on BFA and max level progression again. I hope you guys might do the same, and that the new exploration and content progression will take your mind off the things you aren't in love with in the game.

When that dies down, I hope we can both return with a fresh perspective on the health of the early game, what it needs, and why it needed to improve in the first place.
Woo hoo ignore works on MVPs too!
08/11/2018 11:35 PMPosted by Ruin
How can any of you even defend this? It's painfully obvious what's happening.


When people start attacking others to get their point across, I stop taking them seriously.

Woo hoo ignore works on MVPs too!


Ignoring people for their opinion... yup literally GD in a nutshell. I don't agree with your opinion so I'm going to ignore you.

And you people are still wondering why Blizzard takes some stuff in GD with a grain of salt?
08/12/2018 05:49 AMPosted by Väinämöinen
My problem with all this:
I spent how much gold on Heirlooms that don't work as advertised anymore.


In truth, I embody the other side of the argument. If it were up to me solely, leveling would be removed outright, and replaced with an entirely optional, and exceedingly difficult system.


ohhhh. This explains a lot
People (with the rare exception) buy and subscribe to this game to play the latest expansion. While I don't particularly mind the leveling process through old content, I don't really understand why it "has to" be a thing at all. I understand having grinds while playing through the current expansion, but not having to "earn" a new character brought up to that level.

I think character boosts should be way cheaper. The price of a full video game? That's pretty steep. It should be $15, or even one WoW Game Time token so players can "purchase" it with gold (and Blizzard still gets their $15 either way). That'd make it the same price as the Diablo 3 Necromancer.
08/12/2018 05:49 AMPosted by Väinämöinen
My problem with all this:
I spent how much gold on Heirlooms that don't work as advertised anymore.


These types of statements are a key problem in this discussion.
Heirlooms absolutely do still work as advertised. They are meant to be gear that scales with you as you level and never needs to be replaced, and gear that offers you experience and other power bonuses to make you more powerful and level faster than otherwise.
*snip

[/quote]

One can always complain when they take something they are paying for and change it, whether it is good or bad is irrelevant. People are not happy with the change and as such, complain about it, go figure.
08/12/2018 06:21 AMPosted by Welcome
People (with the rare exception) buy and subscribe to this game to play the latest expansion. While I don't particularly mind the leveling process through old content, I don't really understand why it "has to" be a thing at all. I understand having grinds while playing through the current expansion, but not having to "earn" a new character brought up to that level.

I think character boosts should be way cheaper. The price of a full video game? That's pretty steep. It should be $15, or even one WoW Game Time token so players can "purchase" it with gold (and Blizzard still gets their $15 either way). That'd make it the same price as the Diablo 3 Necromancer.


I disagree, but even if new people were buying it solely for the purpose of playing the new expansion, it comes with a free boost. They can then take their time and level an alt to experience the entire world of Azeroth. MMORPGs have always required a time investment and not everyone enjoys the genre enough to make that investment. Hopefully they will never turn WoW into another Diablo (and I enjoy Diablo).

I'm one player, and I know others, that are enjoying the changes to leveling. I had stopped leveling prior to 7.3.5, it was mind numbingly boring, and now, at least for me, it is enjoyable again.
08/11/2018 11:58 PMPosted by Crowlay
Just because it's not a faceroll does not mean it's too difficult. Does it?


Literally no one above you used the word difficult.
I don't know, some zones still feel bad (WoD without flying is appearing to take me about an hour per level on my spriest).
But in Cata I went from 80-90 within 1.5 zones and about 4 dungeons. Seems a bit fast.

The scaling causes it's own issues, but I think it's on the right track.
Several people in this thread including myself have already addressed why a free boost does little to mitigate the problem here.
08/12/2018 12:04 AMPosted by Mur


Have you leveled a character lately? It's still faceroll, it's just rolling your face at a fraction of the speed now.


87 to 90 tonight on my 3rd Allied race char. It really is not that different. 2 partially completed zones and 3 dungeons to go 80-90.
08/11/2018 11:35 PMPosted by Ruin
How can any of you even defend this? It's painfully obvious what's happening.


When people start attacking others to get their point across, I stop taking them seriously.

Woo hoo ignore works on MVPs too!


Ignoring people for their opinion... yup literally GD in a nutshell. I don't agree with your opinion so I'm going to ignore you.

And you people are still wondering why Blizzard takes some stuff in GD with a grain of salt?


Why don't you go back and read every single response said ignored MVP has had for every single person for the past oh two months? It's the same opinion they're the supposed MVP that has been crass insulting and dismissive of many players so yeah you're dang straight I'm going to put his butt on ignore.
You can still level exclusively through dungeons, which is how people leveled before. People don't have an issue with leveling, they have a problem with the time required to do it. Or, more importantly, they don't enjoy the content. This is the same argument with the flying issue. Flying doesn't make the game radically different, it just removes obstacles (aka less time spent) between player activity and goal/reward.

Root problem here? For the people upset, the game isn't fun. Problem is, there is a shortcut for people who feel that way where leveling is involved. You might not think dropping $60 on a boost is reasonable (I sure as hell don't). Doesn't matter. That's the situation. Maybe with enough concentrated fire asking for the price to be lowered you can get it shifted downward, or encourage semi-frequent discounts, but I doubt that as well. You might be better served playing your mains and alts that are already maxed enough to line your pockets and buy $60 worth of tokens.

Maybe some golden day in the future, the levels themselves will get an overhaul with the advent of zone scaling. Until then, I'd say the current form leveling takes is what you can expect for a while.
08/12/2018 06:49 AMPosted by Kagehiro
You can still level exclusively through dungeons, which is how people leveled before. People don't have an issue with leveling, they have a problem with the time required to do it. Or, more importantly, they don't enjoy the content. This is the same argument with the flying issue. Flying doesn't make the game radically different, it just removes obstacles (aka less time spent) between player activity and goal/reward.

Root problem here? For the people upset, the game isn't fun. Problem is, there is a shortcut for people who feel that way where leveling is involved. You might not think dropping $60 on a boost is reasonable (I sure as hell don't). Doesn't matter. That's the situation. Maybe with enough concentrated fire asking for the price to be lowered you can get it shifted downward, or encourage semi-frequent discounts, but I doubt that as well. You might be better served playing your mains and alts that are already maxed enough to line your pockets and buy $60 worth of tokens.

Maybe some golden day in the future, the levels themselves will get an overhaul with the advent of zone scaling. Until then, I'd say the current form leveling takes is what you can expect for a while.


I am not spending one. cent. on the cash shop to skip leveling. Not one.

They specifically implemented these changes in order to coax people into doing so and I refuse to reward them for that. I refuse.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how easily people are willfully glazing over this super transparent cash grab when we live in a world where there are people who don't believe space is real.
08/12/2018 12:56 AMPosted by Mightymousy
I ran a dungeon today to pass the time on my level 43 prot warrior. It took us about 45 minutes to finish the dungeon. Bosses had 54,000-59,000 hp. Absolutely ridiculous.

I had planned to play my warrior until the rested xp he had accrued was used up. I logged him out instead. Just not worth the effort.


Ok.

JUST for the sake of argument, I ran on this guy with heirlooms. And....

OK.

wE WENT IN AT 9:40. It's now 10:15.

But it was Diremaul so....

Anyhow I was 20% through 45. Now level 46.
Usually I hate these rabble rabble rabble I blindly hate Blizzard posts, but I gotta agree leveling is such a draaaaaaag compared to how it used to be.

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