Would it have split the Alliance?

Story Forum
Had Sylvanus Windrunner not given into spite and decided to prove Delaryn Summermoon wrong (that hope can be killed), would the capture of Teldrasil and Darnasus have split the Alliance as Varok Saurfang and Sylvanus had originally surmised it would?

We know that many Gilneans have been pushing for the Alliance to take back Lordaeron from the Forsaken... or at the very least, reclaim their own homeland of Gineas since it was lost during the Horde invasion shortly after the Cataclysm. Many had since moved to Darnasus and began to build new lives for themselves in that city... only to loose everything they had for a second time in only a few years. But had Darnansus been conquered rather than destroyed... would they have chosen homeland over liberating their new home?

That is the crux of this question.

Saurfang and Sylvanus both assumed that the people of Gilneas would rather have their original nation back rather than the new home they had found with the Night Elves... but would they have actually made that choice? One must realize that since the Cataclysm, the Gilnean Worgen and the Night Elves worked very closely with each other and likely forged lasting friendships and may even came to see each other as kindred spirits.

Moreover, the Gilneans know that the Forsaken used the Blight on their nation, which has been shown to leave any place it touches uninhabitable to anyone without very powerful magics to counter it (such as the breath of the Red Dragons at the Wrathgate or Jaina's powerful command over frost (which was merely a temporary solution at best)). With that said, it is likely that many Gilneans believe that their homeland is lost... and what little remains unblighted likely wouldn't be able to support them without powerful magic.

However, had Darnasus remained intact with Teldrasil captured by the Horde, it is possible that the Gilneans would have been a uniting voice to push for the liberation of Teldrasil. If they truly believed that their homeland was lost (at least without powerful magic to reclaim blighted land), then they would fight with tooth and claw (pun intended) to not only reclaim their new home in Darnasus with the Night Elves, but to ensure that the one ally that could truly help them one day reclaim their own home wouldn't suffer the same fate they had.

Yes, the original plan to capture Darnasus might have split the Alliance, but only if the desire of the Gilneans to have their homeland back was stronger than the bonds of friendship and loyalty to the Nightelves that has developed since they relocated to Darnasus.

Does anyone truly believe that the Gilneans would have abandoned the Night Elves in their time of greatest need when the Night Elves showed them great kindness when the Gilneans needed it the most (and when the Night Elves really had no need to be so generous)?

So I am asking, does anyone believe that the original plan to capture Teldrasil and Darnasus would have split the Alliance as Sylvanus and Saurfang had initially surmised? Yes, it was a possibility, but was it the most likely one?
The novel already answered this question. It would have done nothing from Genn's side because that would mean internal conflict.
No, it would not have. Sylvanas never thought it would.

She claimed it would because she needed to con the Horde into doing her killing for her, but the Alliance rallying together to stop her was exactly what she wanted.

She didn't want to avoid a war, she wanted the Alliance and Horde at each other's throats so she would have more fresh corpses for raising.
In the novella Anduin and Genn talked about it. Genn told him that he would not forget the kindness the Night Elves showed his people. And while he wanted to reclaim Gilneas, he would wait until Teldrassil was reclaimed. So, no it would not have. It was the thing in all the planning that Sylvanas had not understood. Those emotions and feelings that she could no longer understand. And I suspect it was her starting understand that it would not break the Alliance to hold Teldrassil that made her burn it.
No because the Alliance leader's make these sorts of decisions away from Sylvanas and when they are out of her Idiot Aura they would obviously see that wouldn't help them.
Nope, it would cut have worked. That was her major miscalculation. Genn even said that he wouldn't abandon the night elves, not after everything they did for him and his people. Sylvanas bet on the wrong horse.
08/12/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Oenela
Does anyone truly believe that the Gilneans would have abandoned the Night Elves in their time of greatest need when the Night Elves showed them great kindness when the Gilneans needed it the most (and when the Night Elves really had no need to be so generous)?


This is why Malfurion had to die. Not only would it pacify the people in the trees, it would turn Tyrande feral either on the battle field to be easily trapped or in the political side to alienate everyone around her.
The Alliance is too holy and pure to have such things as 'disagreements' and 'minor conflict.'
08/12/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Rokugan
The Alliance is too holy and pure to have such things as 'disagreements' and 'minor conflict.'


More like trying to divide the Gilneans and the Night Elves was a very poor plan because the Gilneans owe the night elves BIG TIME. As Genn puts it in the novella, they helped the worgen hold onto their humanity in the face of the Worgen curse and took them in when they were driven from their homeland, so of course he's not going to divide the alliance by insisting they not help the night elves until Gilneas is saved.

If say they tried to divide the night elves and dwarves through some ploy, maybe that could have worked, but it was'n't going to work in this particular case.
Had Sylvanus Windrunner not given into spite and decided to prove Delaryn Summermoon wrong (that hope can be killed), would the capture of Teldrasil and Darnasus have split the Alliance as Varok Saurfang and Sylvanus had originally surmised it would?

...

So I am asking, does anyone believe that the original plan to capture Teldrasil and Darnasus would have split the Alliance as Sylvanus and Saurfang had initially surmised? Yes, it was a possibility, but was it the most likely one?

The original plan involved killing Malfurion to make the Darnassus civilians despair, thus making them easy to occupy. This would have freed most Horde forces to defend their gains in Kalimdor, forcing any successful Alliance counterattack to be on the Eastern Kingdoms.

Given Malfurion was not killed, the Darnassians, both night elf and Gilnean, would have been expecting a relief invasion from the Alliance, and supported a strong resistance movement in Teldrassil. I have little doubt Anduin and Genn would have provided the expected relief - especially given Genn's wife would probably have remained in Teldrassil to lead the resistance - and with the occupation weakened by resistance, the Alliance would easily have retaken Teldrassil and kept the war on Kalimdor.

Burning the tree was really the only way for the Horde to move the war to the Eastern Kingdoms; yes it was evil, but only because the entire Horde war of aggression was evil from the start.
Doubtful. It may well have created some tension and disagreement, but it wouldn't have split up the current Alliance. Might even have strengthened it.

But I don't think that was Sylvanas' true intention.

The Alliance attack on Lordaeron gave her the opportunity to reasonably abandon a city that was something of a liability because it is so close to Alliance strongholds. It also gave her the chance of possibly destroying a large part of the Alliance armies and leadership in one stroke. Very clever, and could have been a complete and final win for her and the Horde.

Now I'm wondering what's next. This is only the pre-patch, after all, and we have an entire expansion to come.
No, the Old Horde tried doing the same thing and they still ended up losing the 2nd war.

Like, we have to understand that this strategy has NEVER worked in the WCU, it only gets them PO’d and drives them to fight harder.
08/12/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Kaileena
Nope, it would cut have worked. That was her major miscalculation. Genn even said that he wouldn't abandon the night elves, not after everything they did for him and his people. Sylvanas bet on the wrong horse.


I have said before that Sylvannas is a brilliant strategist with some major blind spots. This is her big one. positive emotions have been so much burned out of her that she literally could not foresee Genn having that level of empathy for the Night Elves. Saurfang didn't either, but he's an Orc. he literally does not have the centuries of relating with humans that Sylvannas would be putting into her calculations save for the fact t hat she can no longer process data on the positive emotions.
The Alliance? Have significant internal conflict? Surely you jest.
08/12/2018 01:27 PMPosted by Drahliana


I have said before that Sylvannas is a brilliant strategist with some major blind spots. This is her big one. positive emotions have been so much burned out of her that she literally could not foresee Genn having that level of empathy for the Night Elves. Saurfang didn't either, but he's an Orc. he literally does not have the centuries of relating with humans that Sylvannas would be putting into her calculations save for the fact t hat she can no longer process data on the positive emotions.


You hit the nail on the head! She no longer as the ability to forsee the depth of human emotions. She bet on Genn's rage abd it failed.

08/12/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Myrothan


This is why Malfurion had to die. Not only would it pacify the people in the trees, it would turn Tyrande feral either on the battle field to be easily trapped or in the political side to alienate everyone around her.


Feral?! Highly doubtful. She would have been on a war path yes, but her faith would have kept her centered and she wouldn't have alienates those trying to help her and her people. Major mischaracterization. Even if Mal died, they wouldn't have been able to hold the tree. Neither the Circle or Cenarius himself (or at least his children) would have stood by after he was killed. All it would have taken was a few druids sneaking up to the tree and turning it against the horde occupation.

Honestly, I think that all Sylvanas has done is untied the Alliance and began the fracturing of the Horde. Saurfang pissed off and caprured, Baine pissed off, the Trolls currently leaderless, and i'm sure the Nightborne want no parts of a new war.
08/12/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Kaileena
Feral?! Highly doubtful. She would have been on a war path yes, but her faith would have kept her centered and she wouldn't have alienates those trying to help her and her people. Major mischaracterization. Even if Mal died, they wouldn't have been able to hold the tree. Neither the Circle or Cenarius himself (or at least his children) would have stood by after he was killed. All it would have taken was a few druids sneaking up to the tree and turning it against the horde occupation.


I'm not underestimating her or anything. I said this in another thread, it's not about weakness or fragility, it's about the nature of their relationship. Malfurion has always been soothing and tempering for Tyrande. Their relationship is 10,000 years old and is more than just Mr and Mrs. Losing him and having his head paraded around their homeland would unhinge someone like her.

Cenarion probably would stand with them, but the Circle has bigger things to worry about. Probably wouldn't be too happy tho. Hamuul is probably one sad cow atm.

08/12/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Kaileena
Honestly, I think that all Sylvanas has done is untied the Alliance and began the fracturing of the Horde. Saurfang pissed off and caprured, Baine pissed off, the Trolls currently leaderless, and i'm sure the Nightborne want no parts of a new war.


Saurfang put us in check. Sylvanas turned it around and put the Alliance on the back foot twice in a row. The moral discussion is one thing, but her strategy was nothing but good for the Horde as an organization.
08/12/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Kaileena
Feral?! Highly doubtful. She would have been on a war path yes, but her faith would have kept her centered and she wouldn't have alienates those trying to help her and her people. Major mischaracterization. Even if Mal died, they wouldn't have been able to hold the tree. Neither the Circle or Cenarius himself (or at least his children) would have stood by after he was killed. All it would have taken was a few druids sneaking up to the tree and turning it against the horde occupation.


I'm not underestimating her or anything. I said this in another thread, it's not about weakness or fragility, it's about the nature of their relationship. Malfurion has always been soothing and tempering for Tyrande. Their relationship is 10,000 years old and is more than just Mr and Mrs. Losing him and having his head paraded around their homeland would unhinge someone like her.


I don't think you underestimated her, maybe just misunderstood a little. I hear you point about his death and its effect on her. But it wouldn't unhinge her, that I disagree with. Tyrande has held tight to her faith for over 10,000 if there was ever a time she would cling to it, it would be then. She also has her daughter, Shandris who also would have kept her centered. She would grive, but she would also take care of her people and made sure justice was done.

Cenarion probably would stand with them, but the Circle has bigger things to worry about. Probably wouldn't be too happy tho. Hamuul is probably one sad cow atm.


I'm not sure about that, he's not just their leader but the founder of the circle. With the nightmare receding, they could step in.

08/12/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Myrothan

08/12/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Kaileena
Honestly, I think that all Sylvanas has done is untied the Alliance and began the fracturing of the Horde. Saurfang pissed off and caprured, Baine pissed off, the Trolls currently leaderless, and i'm sure the Nightborne want no parts of a new war.


Saurfang put us in check. Sylvanas turned it around and put the Alliance on the back foot twice in a row. The moral discussion is one thing, but her strategy was nothing but good for the Horde as an organization.


I must respectfully disagree, this was a disaster for the horde. Yes we lost the tree and 1000 civilians, but far more than that got out. Undercity is gone, she had to commit troops to defend it before the fall, a lot of which died, some by her own hand with the blight. The orcs are now leaderless as are the trolls, and according to "Before the Storm" the horde did not have the resources to fight another war yet. That's why she needed a quick victory to silence the Alliance and she didn't get it. The entire plan backfired.
08/12/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Trilliam
The Alliance attack on Lordaeron gave her the opportunity to reasonably abandon a city that was something of a liability because it is so close to Alliance strongholds. It also gave her the chance of possibly destroying a large part of the Alliance armies and leadership in one stroke. Very clever, and could have been a complete and final win for her and the Horde.

Then it seems likely that the plan from the start was to provoke an attack on the Undercity. She very likely could have ended the war in the throne room had Jaina not been there. If Jaina was the wildcard that ruined her grand plan, that means she's kind of out of options now and played her whole hand.
I hear you point about his death and its effect on her. But it wouldn't unhinge her, that I disagree with. Tyrande has held tight to her faith for over 10,000 of the was ever a time she would cling to it, it would be then. She also has her daughter, Shandris who also would have kept her centered. She would grive, but she would also take care of her people and made sure justice was done.


My counter we be that Shandris is also fiery and just suffered defeat herself with the Naval Fleet. Frankly though we're both just shooting hypotheticals about this, so we good. Agree to disagree.

I'm not sure about that, he's not just their leader but the founder of the circle. With the nightmare receding, they could step in.


The world is dying though, and it was before the Goblins started mining. It started as soon as Sargy threw his tantrum as he peaced out. They are needed elsewhere, and guardians of nature should understand that better than most. Cenarion isn't bound like that though. He was Malfurions bro, and would definitely join with the Nelfs. Gotta wonder where he was during the war tho.

08/12/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Kaileena
I must respectfully disagree, this was a disaster for the horde. Yes we lost the tree and 1000 civilians, but far more than that got out. Undercity is gone, she had to commit troops to defend it before the fall, a lot of which died, some by her own hand with the blight.


There was a skeleton crew (sorta pun intended I guess) and bombs at the Undercity. The whole place was a deliberate trap to destroy a large portion of the Alliance forces if not their leaders. If Jaina hadn't shown up it would have worked even better than it already did.

08/12/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Kaileena
The orcs are now leaderless as are the trolls, and according to "Before the Storm" the horde did not have the resources to fight another war yet. That's why she needed a quick victory to silence the Alliance and she didn't get it. The entire plan backfired.


The quick and decisive strategy they devised went out the window without Malfurions head. We know from a meta perspective that the Horde probably could have taken the tree, but Sylvanas did the math and decided it cost more soldiers than it was worth without the head. (Edit: Also. the whole plan of driving a wedge obviously wouldn't have worked with Malfurion still alive as we see in the novella. We don't know what Tyrande would act like afterwords if he had though and what effect it would have on her allies.) Then what? Walk away with nothing? Instead of wasting Horde lives or walking away to fortify Orgrimmar/Undercity for the inevitable retaliation, she incites their rage fully on her and traps her own city for them to come impale themselves. And they did.
Wedge no, but she was possibly planning all along to burn Teldrassil. Just later when the Alliance army and navy were fully entrenched trying to take Darnassus back.

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