Blue response to scaling: "nah it's fine"

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08/27/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Ythisens
I understand the concern about wanting to feel yourself get stronger but you still actually do
So.... you are telling us what we feel? No, you are incorrect. I personally DO NOT FEEL STRONGER.

Please don't tell me what I'm feeling while playing my character.
08/27/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Ythisens
I understand the concern about wanting to feel yourself get stronger but you still actually do, the world just feels a little relevant for a little longer and I think it achieves that. On my main I've already far outpaced it and at 341 I feel like a god again. I can pull a large number of mobs and easily handle them all and churn through WQs pretty quickly.

I even leveled an alt up and geared it this weekend up to almost 320 ilvl and it felt just as fine as it did the first time. When I hit 120 I noticed the mobs were a little stronger and I was having to be a little more careful but not by much and that didn't last long at all.

If you're finding mobs that do individually feel strange you should bug report them so the team can look into it but the system as a whole is working fine at least from my experience.


You realize not everyone does mythic dungeons and those people will be stuck in this situation for a month.

People need to feel they are gaining power at the start of the expansion because progression is the only reason some people play and if they don't enjoy the start they won't stick around.
08/27/2018 04:10 PMPosted by Amandiel
He isn't on the dev/design team. He is providing his feedback as a player.

Exactly. I'm just sharing what exactly my experience was when going through it both times and they both felt the same. I'm leveling a Warlock next so I'm interested to see the difference it makes as a clothie. I'll probably share my thoughts on that experience too but from my guildies they didn't even notice the scaling hardly at all even as a caster.

08/27/2018 03:45 PMPosted by Cyouskin
Casters do have it worse than melee.

Yeah this is what I'm interested in testing out myself and seeing how different it feels.
08/27/2018 04:35 PMPosted by Gozuk
I'm curious, have you ever played an elemental shaman? :)
If so, how was your questing experience compared to other classes/specs?


Elemental is usually always my second alt that I use for alt night raiding. I haven't quested with him yet but I plan on doing that one after Warlock. Historically for me it's always been fine, little slower obviously but still fine.

08/27/2018 04:05 PMPosted by Etch
Oh, shut up. You all are just terrible at this casual game.

Lets not be rude.

08/27/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Älexandra
this was never an issue in older expansions.

people leveled to max level, and had fun when they got gear and stomped everything in the older content. that's what an mmo is, you get strong and go back and have fun lording over all the stupid crap you had to fight before.

The point is it was an issue that always was there but you didn't pay much attention to it as a player nor really care too much about it to be honest. I didn't notice it either until the dev team had pointed it out. It seemed like something they always wanted to try to fix it or change it but never had the chance until now with the scaling tech they have now.

It feels good to get stronger, to see your avatar in this world crush your foes, and it feels very good to get gear and get upgrades, that's a core feature of an MMO, there is no debating that or changing that. What's great though is being in a place where the content can be as relevant as possible and the rewards still match your time investment. One of the things Ion talked about with this system is that the health pool of open world mobs does get a little higher with your ilvl, but you get stronger in a faster pace. It's not making them infinitely stronger than you or making them comparative to you forever, its just a little bump at the beginning. By the time you're hitting 320 you are already far outpacing them at least from my experience.

I think its a good topic to be aware of and concerned about and I 100% get the concern and agree that going overboard does counter a core feeling of the game, but if the beginning, middle, and end of the system still end with you being able to have that character progression and feel yourself progress then I think the system can work. When it doesn't is where you have the problems and of course the team doesn't want that. Which is why they ask for specifics on any issues you're finding so they can address them and fix it if needed.
08/27/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Leesha
So.... you are telling us what we feel? No, you are incorrect. I personally DO NOT FEEL STRONGER.

Please don't tell me what I'm feeling while playing my character.


Thanks for the callout. I should edit that, wasn't my intention to tell you what to feel but rather imply you still have the ability to feel stronger with your effort.
08/27/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Machineman

They're not harder - they are the same relative to your new level. Why would you get more war resources?


Because being able to kill them much faster would equate to you moving on the the next quest or thing you are supposed to be doing, thus giving you more for the time spent. If the time remains relatively unchanged despite you gearing up to complete it faster they should reward more. quests with beefier mobs should reward higher rewards, if they get beefier when I do well....
08/27/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Ythisens
If you're finding mobs that do individually feel strange you should bug report them so the team can look into it but the system as a whole is working fine at least from my experience.


I'll have to submit a bug report then, I was absolutely flabbergasted at the difference between Warlords of Draenor and Legion leveling. I went from doing 2 1/2 - 3 rotations with mobs that had 16-18k health to mobs I was able to kill at 3/4 of a rotation and mobs with 8k-12k health in legion. Its soooo different. Outland-Draenor my leveling experience was the same. The second I got to legion everything started melting like butter.

The difference is INCREDIBLY noticeable. Did this with heirloom gear. Something is seriously not right.
I understand the concern about wanting to feel yourself get stronger but you still actually do, the world just feels a little relevant for a little longer and I think it achieves that. On my main I've already far outpaced it and at 341 I feel like a god again. I can pull a large number of mobs and easily handle them all and churn through WQs pretty quickly.

I even leveled an alt up and geared it this weekend up to almost 320 ilvl and it felt just as fine as it did the first time. When I hit 120 I noticed the mobs were a little stronger and I was having to be a little more careful but not by much and that didn't last long at all.

If you're finding mobs that do individually feel strange you should bug report them so the team can look into it but the system as a whole is working fine at least from my experience.


No the world makes your progress feel more irrelevant than ever before. thats not a good feeling.
I wouldn't mind so much if weapons weren't so rare, and while everything scales with my ilvl, my weapons stay the same so things tend to take as much or longer. I remember getting a higher ilvl in the past and having a much easier time in the world, but mobs have such a high amount of health now.
08/27/2018 02:27 PMPosted by Hrødric
Dude it really is.
I am not even high enough and I am killing everything fast.
Stop complaining.


No, it isn't.

It's not fine that on my alt I'm barely able to handle 2 mobs before dying. My alt isn't even poorly geared. He's just outclassed by standard quest mobs. This should not be a thing. An elite or rare I get. But two normal mobs of equal level? It should be a cake walk.
08/27/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ythisens
08/27/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Leesha
So.... you are telling us what we feel? No, you are incorrect. I personally DO NOT FEEL STRONGER.

Please don't tell me what I'm feeling while playing my character.


Thanks for the callout. I should edit that, wasn't my intention to tell you what to feel but rather imply you still have the ability to feel stronger with your effort.


Did balance test to see how talent progression lines up with scaling?
08/27/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Ythisens
I understand the concern about wanting to feel yourself get stronger but you still actually do have the ability to feel stronger, the world just feels a little relevant for a little longer while you're doing it and I think it achieves that. On my main I've already far outpaced it and at 341 I feel like a god again. I can pull a large number of mobs and easily handle them all and churn through WQs pretty quickly.

I even leveled an alt up and geared it this weekend up to almost 320 ilvl and it felt just as fine as it did the first time. When I hit 120 I noticed the mobs were a little stronger and I was having to be a little more careful but not by much and that didn't last long at all.

If you're finding mobs that do individually feel strange you should bug report them so the team can look into it but the system as a whole is working fine at least from my experience.
08/27/2018 04:50 PMPosted by Ythisens
Thanks for the callout. I should edit that, wasn't my intention to tell you what to feel but rather imply you still have the ability to feel stronger with your effort.

Props to you for continuing to respond and be active on the forums. I don't always agree with you, but it's nice to see representation and discussion from someone at Blizzard. It makes me feel like we're not alone over here.
08/27/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Ythisens
What's great though is being in a place where the content can be as relevant as possible and the rewards still match your time investment.


You are catering to only a part of the playerbase at the expense of another part. I have no idea why you would think hitting things 10 times for each and every mob makes the game fun and that is what my feral has to do on normal quest mobs.

If that is making the content relevant I want nothing to do with that and the rewards most certainly don't match my time investment when the above happens.
To me it just feels like they grossly undertuned mobs in the 110 - 116 range, which results in you going from 'Unkillable Death God' at the beginning of BfA, to 'weak civilian' at max level. This issue was not present in Legion, stuff at level 100 was very lethal unlike 110 mobs in BfA.


Thanks for the callout. I should edit that, wasn't my intention to tell you what to feel but rather imply you still have the ability to feel stronger with your effort.


I believe it's factual that mythic Antorus geared players WILL feel weaker (in terms of fighting the same # of mobs) upon hitting the level cap.

It depends on the point of comparison. I think max level gameplay is fine.
08/27/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Ythisens
I understand the concern about wanting to feel yourself get stronger but you still actually do have the ability to feel stronger, the world just feels a little relevant for a little longer while you're doing it and I think it achieves that.


I disagree. I don't feel stronger at all when leveling. My gear doesn't seem to make much of a difference.

On my main I've already far outpaced it and at 341 I feel like a god again. I can pull a large number of mobs and easily handle them all and churn through WQs pretty quickly.


And what about lower level stuff? Because I'm pretty sure that is still broken.


I even leveled an alt up and geared it this weekend up to almost 320 ilvl and it felt just as fine as it did the first time. When I hit 120 I noticed the mobs were a little stronger and I was having to be a little more careful but not by much and that didn't last long at all.


What class? Because my Paladin feels weak as hell. I'm leveling right now and barely able to handle two mobs of equal level. Non elites. My self heals are really really weak. That shouldn't be a thing.


If you're finding mobs that do individually feel strange you should bug report them so the team can look into it but the system as a whole is working fine at least from my experience.


I'm finding that this stat squish was not tested properly and the devs are doing the equivalent of that meme where the dog is in a burning building and going "this is fine"
08/27/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Amarlly
To me it just feels like they grossly undertuned mobs in the 110 - 116 range, which results in you going from 'Unkillable Death God' at the beginning of BfA, to 'weak civilian' at max level. This issue was not present in Legion, stuff at level 100 was very lethal unlike 110 mobs in BfA.

Not quite, when we were in that range we had very high ilvl gear for our level - and the mobs were scaled with the idea of fresh 110 in mind. That's why level 110s with legendaries and prior BiS gear can beat 120's.
Scaling tech is good for old content, you know if you WANT to bring those old zones back to life, but why should you HAVE to? When I can't even fight off 4 crows without them gibbing me, yet I just saved the planet if not the entire universe from Sargeras, makes me feel small. If these monsters are just as strong as me now, where were they when Azeroth was being overrun by the Legion?

Rares having 1.5x my max life is a little intimidating too, and they gain a significant amount when another person joins the fight, yet the other person might not be doing that much damage, if any at all, healer or tank?
08/27/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Ythisens
It feels good to get stronger, to see your avatar in this world crush your foes, and it feels very good to get gear and get upgrades, that's a core feature of an MMO, there is no debating that or changing that. What's great though is being in a place where the content can be as relevant as possible and the rewards still match your time investment.


Please tell me what you mean by relevant because I'm not seeing it. Mobs still drop the same ilvl loot they did when I hit 120, quest rewards still cap out despite the world mobs gaining health as I get better geared. It's not even close to being around my ilvl. So what relevance should I be looking for?

08/27/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Ythisens
One of the things Ion talked about with this system is that the health pool of open world mobs does get a little higher with your ilvl, but you get stronger in a faster pace.


That's assuming every ilvl increase is an upgrade which is most certainly not the case and if the scaling for one of my specs is based on the ilvl of gear I have for a different spec could you see how this could cause scaling issues? As well as mob health being scaled to something you might have in your inventory but have no intention of using yet but want to hang onto?
08/27/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Ythisens
if the beginning, middle, and end of the system still end with you being able to have that character progression and feel yourself progress then I think the system can work.

So, what would you say if the middle of the system makes you feel like you're regressing? The only reason that gearing up at 120 has felt even a little bit like progress is because I felt so much weaker when I dinged than I did at 116. I don't think a system that makes you spend time catching up to where you were four levels ago is working.

08/27/2018 04:47 PMPosted by Ythisens
By the time you're hitting 320 you are already far outpacing them at least from my experience.

You're having a better experience than me then. At 319, I'm most certainly not "far outpacing" anything.

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