Respect the Players' Time

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Excellent analysis, @Eralen. Yes, since Warlords they've been pursuing short-term retention methods (rep grinds, Pathfinder) rather than long-term retention methods (playability). Warlords saw a distinct change in the nature of the game from everything that came before it. Optional play styles were discouraged and forced content was incentivized, unfortunately.

I'm loath to say it but the change from subscriptions as an economic measurement to MAUs is probably the primary reason behind what we're seeing in-game, I believe. That, and worrying too much about the small minority of players that burn through content in two weeks. I don't know if the developers will ever see the way back to putting playability first. It's not that players don't want to grind in the game, it's the fact we can no longer get to choose which grinds we want to pursue. Long-term, I think this approach will only increase churn as long-time players will get burnt out and leave.
08/19/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Pepperpanda
these posts suck.

stop your whining and play the game you CHOOSE to play. Its not your game. you dont invest any time in its creation. You simply pay to play it. Your choice.

if i was a dev i would do anything i could to keep people revisiting older content. Why? because its still part of the game. Each expansion is an addition, not an entirely new game. So many of you are just... LAZY. You want everything handed to you. You dont want to work for anything, even in a video game. I can only imagine how your real life is going with that mentality.

wow has been plagued with too many brats. and thats whats really annoying.

Who asked YOU?

Oh, no one.

Instead of name-calling those of us who have legitimate criticisms, why don't you go play the game since you are so happy with it?

Oh, I get it.

Because YOU would rather spend your time taking pot shots at others. You're right, WoW is plagued with too many brats . . . like you.

I can only imagine how your real life is going with that mentality.
08/19/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Ridorien
08/19/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Pepperpanda
these posts suck.

stop your whining and play the game you CHOOSE to play. Its not your game. you dont invest any time in its creation. You simply pay to play it. Your choice.

if i was a dev i would do anything i could to keep people revisiting older content. Why? because its still part of the game. Each expansion is an addition, not an entirely new game. So many of you are just... LAZY. You want everything handed to you. You dont want to work for anything, even in a video game. I can only imagine how your real life is going with that mentality.

wow has been plagued with too many brats. and thats whats really annoying.


lmao I love these posts because they are just so privileged and sheltered. Aw widdle babby, are dem mean people hurting your ego because you derive all of your self-worth from tedious and boring gameplay elements? How's high school?

A huge reason why people want this rep grind changed is because unlike you we're functioning adults. We have jobs and families that we prioritize. We work and have worked for everything else in our lives.

And the last thing that should feel like a second job is a !@#$ing video game we pay to play for entertainment.

Grow up a bit.

Take your own advice, kid.

These forums are here so people can voice their opinions. The OP just happened to make a very articulate and well-explained post. If you

08/19/2018 09:12 AMPosted by Pepperpanda
08/19/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Ridorien
...

lmao I love these posts because they are just so privileged and sheltered. Aw widdle babby, are dem mean people hurting your ego because you derive all of your self-worth from tedious and boring gameplay elements? How's high school?

A huge reason why people want this rep grind changed is because unlike you we're functioning adults. We have jobs and families that we prioritize. We work and have worked for everything else in our lives.

And the last thing that should feel like a second job is a !@#$ing video game we pay to play for entertainment.

Grow up a bit.


High school was awesome, 25 years ago. Right now im married, taking care of my teenagers running 2 businesses, taking adventurous vacations and enjoying my free time which i like to spend some on playing WoW.

Anything else to add to your witty retort?

Yeah kid. Go play the game and leave this discussion to the grown-ups.
I agree with everything the op said. This xpacs only been out a week and im already feeling burnt out on it due to all the nonsense the devs are pulling. I dont know if i feel like putting up with it again.
Also on pathfinder flying shouldnt be locked behind pathfinder, awsome mounts and skins should. It would make pathfinder seems like a reward instead of a chore i have to do. To much of what the devs are doing is turning grinds into mandatory chores instead of optional grinds with a cool reward at the end to make it all worth it.
08/19/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Pepperpanda
these posts suck.

stop your whining and play the game you CHOOSE to play. Its not your game. you dont invest any time in its creation. You simply pay to play it. Your choice.

if i was a dev i would do anything i could to keep people revisiting older content. Why? because its still part of the game. Each expansion is an addition, not an entirely new game. So many of you are just... LAZY. You want everything handed to you. You dont want to work for anything, even in a video game. I can only imagine how your real life is going with that mentality.

wow has been plagued with too many brats. and thats whats really annoying.


08/19/2018 09:12 AMPosted by Pepperpanda
High school was awesome, 25 years ago. Right now im married, taking care of my teenagers running 2 businesses, taking adventurous vacations and enjoying my free time which i like to spend some on playing WoW.

Anything else to add to your witty retort?


I find your choices of focus and points very telling. Let's follow your point to the logical conclusion?

If the /only/ choice a player has related to a game is whether to pay for it or not, then there is no reason for engagement between Devs and players at all. The dev makes the game, they release it, they advertise it, you choose to buy it or not... done. Full stop.

The logical conclusion of your point is that absolutely zero dev-player interaction would ever occur, because it doesn't matter at all. Zero value, zero purpose, zero reason for existing.

That would require: removing all forums, never responding on twitter or facebook, no blue posts (include in removing of forums), no community managers, no customer support beyond billing reps who do or don't approve purchase/refund, and also no blizzcon.

In other words, awful business practice that no sane business owner would recommend pursuing. And since you run two, I would have assumed you'd be already aware of that.

You're entitle to your opinion. I simply find it useless, destructive, and illogical myself.
all of these slashes made me bleed to death, thanks OP
08/19/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Pepperpanda
these posts suck.

stop your whining and play the game you CHOOSE to play. Its not your game. you dont invest any time in its creation. You simply pay to play it. Your choice.

if i was a dev i would do anything i could to keep people revisiting older content. Why? because its still part of the game. Each expansion is an addition, not an entirely new game. So many of you are just... LAZY. You want everything handed to you. You dont want to work for anything, even in a video game. I can only imagine how your real life is going with that mentality.

wow has been plagued with too many brats. and thats whats really annoying.


Hmmph…..

I just looked up the definition of "brat".

Definition of brat according to Merriam-Webster:

1 a disparaging : child; specifically : an ill-mannered annoying child ·a spoiled brat
b : an ill-mannered immature person

It is always so sad to see how hostile some players get when other players dare to express views that differ from their own. The attitude and choice of words was really pretty uncalled for and certainly quite "ill mannered".

Considering how caustic and judgmental your words are, toward fellow players with differing opinions from your own, you might want to take a look in the mirror the next time you want to call someone a brat.

At the very least, you might want to consider how your own attitude toward different opinions can so easily rile you to the point of insult and animosity toward people who are fellow players in this game that we all love.
08/19/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Toragh
Excellent analysis, @Eralen. Yes, since Warlords they've been pursuing short-term retention methods (rep grinds, Pathfinder) rather than long-term retention methods (playability). Warlords saw a distinct change in the nature of the game from everything that came before it. Optional play styles were discouraged and forced content was incentivized, unfortunately.

I'm loath to say it but the change from subscriptions as an economic measurement to MAUs is probably the primary reason behind what we're seeing in-game, I believe. That, and worrying too much about the small minority of players that burn through content in two weeks. I don't know if the developers will ever see the way back to putting playability first. It's not that players don't want to grind in the game, it's the fact we can no longer get to choose which grinds we want to pursue. Long-term, I think this approach will only increase churn as long-time players will get burnt out and leave.


This ^
there is no "grown up discussion" here, just a bunch of entitled brats trying to force their way on someone elses property.

sorry if my replies get under your thin skin. thats your problem, not mine.
08/17/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Katsuni
You can't accomplish anything anymore by just playing normally.
I'm calling bull on that right there. Yes, you can outside of Normal and higher raiding and Mythic+ Dungeons.

You can easily earn the rep with casual play using the Emissary system. Take the Legion ones for example. If you only do the Emissaries for the ones you need you'll be getting 1500-2250/3000 rep every 9 days guaranteed. And that's not even counting the rep from doing the WQs themselves. So 3-4 WQs (less if they're in the same zone) for 2/9 days and you're earning a chunk of rep. Based on that alone that's 126 days total with only having to actually do something 28 of those days.

And that also based on going from 0 to 21,000/21,000 exalted.

It just takes patience and effort. Which are two things people whining about Allied Races do not want to put in to the game. And no, it's not "trolling" to point this out. That's just a smokescreen to try and hide the fact you don't want to put time and effort in.

Even if we had Wrath's rep system where at Friendly you bought a tabbard and then could literally get to Exalted in a day grinding dungeons you would still complain about it.

Watcher's answer on nerfing previous expansions' Pathfinder achievements already gives us the hint that Blizzard will NOT be nerfing these. So my suggestion is rather than waste what precious little time you apparently have to play here in the forums, that you actually get in game and do that work you need to do in order to unlock the races you want.
08/17/2018 08:37 PMPosted by Seekerdrone
Why not just let everyone be max level, have max level gear, and all professions maxed.

It is in the game I payed for. Why do I need to work for it?


This mindset... I want you to realize why WoW became the biggest MMO over EQ, UO, FFXI, and other MMOs out there with big names attached.... (hint, it's not cause they made things "more work")
At least with vanilla and TBC, you could do it at your own pace. Sure, it took a long time, but it was in the task itself and not some gating mechanic unless you count raid lockouts in a couple of cases where you needed a boss you already did that week.
Players added QoL addons to increase playability such as WQ group finder and those were crushed by Blizzard. They even went so far as to disable the QoL functionality of their own in-game addon to make everything more tedious for players. This is obviously because they wanted world questing in BFA(for azerite) to be a lot more time-consuming. This way we increase our power a lot slower.
08/20/2018 11:52 AMPosted by Dirtysgirl
They even went so far as to disable the QoL functionality of their own in-game addon to make everything more tedious for players.
Correction: Players found a way to ABUSE Word Quests and group functionality. So they did what they ALWAYS do when people are exploiting.... they remove the exploit.

They've even made quests that would have normally been group credit be individual too.

It's the same reason why you have to pay before you pump gas or have your name run through a federal database when you buy certain kinds of cold/allergy medication. Because we're reaping what has been sown by a few bad actors. Quit blaming Blizzard for having to do that.
Seems like a good place to post something I've noticed...

in all the "kill something to collect something" I've found in BFA, the drop rates are abysmal. Like, if I need five fat lurker tails, I'm gonna be killing 20 lurkers. Not 5, not even 10... 20.
08/20/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Pepperpanda
there is no "grown up discussion" here, just a bunch of entitled brats trying to force their way on someone elses property.

sorry if my replies get under your thin skin. thats your problem, not mine.


I note you chose to completely ignore my response to the logic of your own thesis, and opted to entirely lock onto the 'brat' topic that you brought up yourself.

Since you're going to ignore any /actual/ response to your points, I feel justified ignoring your future comments entirely. Simply notifying.

08/20/2018 11:46 AMPosted by Forums
08/17/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Katsuni
You can't accomplish anything anymore by just playing normally.
I'm calling bull on that right there. Yes, you can outside of Normal and higher raiding and Mythic+ Dungeons.

You can easily earn the rep with casual play using the Emissary system. Take the Legion ones for example. If you only do the Emissaries for the ones you need you'll be getting 1500-2250/3000 rep every 9 days guaranteed. And that's not even counting the rep from doing the WQs themselves. So 3-4 WQs (less if they're in the same zone) for 2/9 days and you're earning a chunk of rep. Based on that alone that's 126 days total with only having to actually do something 28 of those days.

And that also based on going from 0 to 21,000/21,000 exalted.

It just takes patience and effort. Which are two things people whining about Allied Races do not want to put in to the game. And no, it's not "trolling" to point this out. That's just a smokescreen to try and hide the fact you don't want to put time and effort in.

Even if we had Wrath's rep system where at Friendly you bought a tabbard and then could literally get to Exalted in a day grinding dungeons you would still complain about it.

Watcher's answer on nerfing previous expansions' Pathfinder achievements already gives us the hint that Blizzard will NOT be nerfing these. So my suggestion is rather than waste what precious little time you apparently have to play here in the forums, that you actually get in game and do that work you need to do in order to unlock the races you want.


You're calling bull on it... and then fully listing out exactly /why/ playing normally doesn't work.

A casual player doesn't want to spend 126 days waiting, 28 of which grinding a four-set of quests, for a race unlock. Or a mount unlock. Or flying.

A week or two of focused grinding? Sure, I could deal with that. That's not terrible.

I've gotten to about... 18k out of 21k with Suramar after... 11 days straight. From zero to that.

And I am now officially too burnt out to bother logging in. I had a few WQs left last night... I just... couldn't anymore. I was spent.

So being told that my playing hard enough over 10 days to actually burn myself out is 'don't want to put the time and effort in' is... basically just insulting.

I wanted something fun so I could enjoy my fun game more.

It was made so time-consuming and dull to accomplished that the 'fun' has been removed, and I'm not playing now.

Your point is simply not pursuasive. I /am/ doing what the game /allows me to do/ until I hit my breaking point, then I stop. The exhaustion is the reason this thread exists.

If you don't get exhausted in that way, fair enough, but that doesn't mean the game design is actually 'good', either. (Just as my disliking it doesn't make it 'bad' on its own)

It's acceptable to you, not acceptable to me, and we both pay the same cash. My cash will be... less due to this frustration.
08/17/2018 11:20 PMPosted by Aladarr
People aren’t paying because they enjoy WoW any more, they are paying to have a curated experience.

These are simply the problems of a 13 year old game trying to remain relevant.

The magic is gone. It died a long time ago. Now it’s just artificial magic. Forced.


Finally someone is using the old noggin on these forums. About time. Weve all spent so much time in the game we wamt it to be fun. And some parts are. Some parts deifnitely not.
08/20/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Eralen
You're calling bull on it... and then fully listing out exactly /why/ playing normally doesn't work.
No, it DOES work. You DO get the reward. I merely listed how to get it doing the least amount of work.

08/20/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Eralen
I've gotten to about... 18k out of 21k with Suramar after... 11 days straight. From zero to that.
And how much of the actual zone quests have you done? Have you maxed out your Ancient Mana so you can do Withered Training which is worth 425 Rep right there?

Are you doing Kirin Tor Emissary as well for the extra 750 rep?

08/20/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Eralen
So being told that my playing hard enough over 10 days to actually burn myself out is 'don't want to put the time and effort in' is... basically just insulting.
Well, that content has been there since August 30th, 2016. That's why you get no sympathy. Even if you just started/returned you still have it easier than we did. We had time gates, you do not.

08/20/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Eralen
It's acceptable to you, not acceptable to me, and we both pay the same cash. My cash will be... less due to this frustration.
It's acceptable to me because I know they're not going to change their minds. They gave quite a crystal clear answer to this when asked about lowering the requirements for Draenor Pathfinder in BfA or beyond. They said "No". Because they know that the lazy and entitled will simply just wait until the nerf goes into effect.

08/20/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Eralen
It was made so time-consuming and dull to accomplished that the 'fun' has been removed, and I'm not playing now.
It was also designed to have been done a year ago. If I want gear/transmog from a raid, I still have to run it. That means learning boss fights, staying up later than I want and a whole host of other things. But I do it anyways because I want the reward at the end and I know that's the only way I am going to get it.

Blizzard isn't going to hand me X because I do not have time to play or I lack the fortitude to do a binge session. They've provided me with the tools to do it, it's up to me to use them.

08/20/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Eralen
Your point is simply not pursuasive. I /am/ doing what the game /allows me to do/ until I hit my breaking point, then I stop. The exhaustion is the reason this thread exists.
It's not meant to be persuasive. I don't need to persuade anyone. I'm just telling you how it is. Your liking it or accepting it is immaterial. You either do it and get the reward or you don't. It's as simple as that.

Finally someone is using the old noggin on these forums. About time. Weve all spent so much time in the game we wamt it to be fun. And some parts are. Some parts definitely not.
You must be new to MMOs. Because that's not how MMO's work. Why do you think Blizzard lost a chunk of subscribers in China a few years ago? Because Chinese gamers have moved away from games that require a lot of time and effort to learn, master, and earn rewards. They want something they can sit down, play for a little bit, and see some kind of progress. MMOs are the antithesis of that.

08/20/2018 01:17 PMPosted by Dimpishly
in all the "kill something to collect something" I've found in BFA, the drop rates are abysmal. Like, if I need five fat lurker tails, I'm gonna be killing 20 lurkers. Not 5, not even 10... 20.
That's nothing new. Back before Cata the Hillsbrad quest chain had you get human skulls... 20 of them. Apparently not every human has a skull because you would have to depopulate that town several times over before you finished the quest.

At the system level, quest items are push loot so it does a roll and it's either there or not.

08/20/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Elechan
This mindset... I want you to realize why WoW became the biggest MMO over EQ, UO, FFXI, and other MMOs out there with big names attached.... (hint, it's not cause they made things "more work")
You also forgot to mention it destroyed one Star Wars MMO and forced another to kill itself.

08/20/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Eralen
And I am now officially too burnt out to bother logging in. I had a few WQs left last night... I just... couldn't anymore. I was spent
Then you have bigger issues than Nightbourne rep.
Good post. However, before Blizzard (or really any major publisher/developer these days) can respect a player's time, they have to first respect the player. Blizzard stopped doing that long ago.
It's called playing the story. Don't like it? Don't play. Not everyone can get the same stuff at the same time because everyone has different real life commitments. Don't expect the game to cater to you and only you.

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