Respect the Players' Time

General Discussion
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There's fun grind, and there's chore.

WoW rep grind belongs to the later.
08/17/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Eralen
/Flying/ was earned by hitting level cap and spending gold, in Mists, Cataclysm, and LK, and BC. It was logical

The game was completely different dude.

I agree gating Pathfinder for 8months kinda sucks. but also getting flying at max level with gold isn't healthy for the game.

You actually think it won't change anything.. but in reality people will get burnt out if they already did everything super super fast.

Back then in LK we had 12 million subs.. there was no fancy CRZ/LFR or xmogs... it was a different game.. You just can't..

Do you know what you are asking for? almost like "Hey lets get rid of LFR" now. because back in days we didn't have 4 raid difficulties.. and the game survived and people were fine.

Which won't happen.. Blizzard added Pathfinder, they are sticking with this method.. if they wanted to change it. they would've done that like long time ago.
08/20/2018 06:29 PMPosted by Suhoza
There's fun grind, and there's chore.

WoW rep grind belongs to the later.

Just because you don't like doing it doesn't mean others don't. I for one like them quite a bit.
08/17/2018 08:31 PMPosted by Annastasi
/what/ /is/ /this/ /madness/


It's been well over 24 hours since I've read your response.. I still giggle about it.
08/18/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Eralen
Fair enough, but I'm just not with you on it. Having to run around at ground-level makes sense during leveling to some degree, but once you transition into end-game grinding, the convenience of player-controlled flight makes the grind more manageable and enjoyable.

Also, straight-up, the whistle is far more immersion breaking than my own flying mounts. "Oh, I'mma just... blow my whistle here, and insta-teleport to a safepoint."

It's a third hearthstone that adapts to your area. It trivializes traveling /more than/ player-controlled flight.

And I'll say it again. I appreciate the game world better from the air.


The problem this early is that would trivialize the grinding process by cutting the time required to clear them quite significantly. And while this makes a lot of people say....

"Yeah that sounds awesome!"

People aren't considering that the problem then would be everyone sitting in the main faction hubs wondering where the content is. If they go the MoP route and include flying in leveling zones after releasing a new zone for max level characters that have no flying then I think that would be the best solution for the game.
Having to grind for flight i do not mind. I don't like the timegates on it though. I really don't like the races not being unlocked though. You get BFA, you should be able to place the new races, not have to grind them out.
My plan is to just stop Playing for 6 months or so till they take off the rep and stop this gating for time nonsense. I have 2 toons to cap and 8.1 to wait for then I'm out till they start being reasonable. They will continue to do these things as a company until we as a player base stop letting them do them.
Fun rep grind=Wrath Rep Grind=Decide what kind of rep you want and what you think the fun way to get it is and do that.

Current rep grind removes dungeons altogether.
08/20/2018 06:35 PMPosted by Miriamele
Having to grind for flight i do not mind. I don't like the timegates on it though. I really don't like the races not being unlocked though. You get BFA, you should be able to place the new races, not have to grind them out.
I know people forget these but back in the day you could gain higher levels in flying by paying or unlocking by Achievement. There is no reason they can't do the same now they just refuse to. Our mindset shouldn't be I don't mind it should be give me the content I have always had. They have always put in Rep gated stuff for people that like that and reg content for those that don't. Now even if people don't think about it every thing is gated now on time look at World Quest.
Really looking forward to getting to max level so I can grind for a month or two straight so I can unlock "Angry Dwarf: The Race" and then get back to max level again so I can do stuff I actually want to do on a race I actually want to play.
When/did/the/English/language/start/to/use/slashes/as/a/replacement/for/commas?

Please/enlighten/me?
08/20/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Sugekilledez
When/did/the/English/language/start/to/use/slashes/as/a/replacement/for/commas?

Please/enlighten/me?

When you say enlighten you do you mean set you on fire?
No, it DOES work. You DO get the reward. I merely listed how to get it doing the least amount of work.


And my entire point is that the work required for the reward doesn't match to the reward on scale, time requirements, or merit. You are arguing a point unrelated to the actual topic at hand. You're not wrong. It just was also never in question here.

And how much of the actual zone quests have you done? Have you maxed out your Ancient Mana so you can do Withered Training which is worth 425 Rep right there?

Are you doing Kirin Tor Emissary as well for the extra 750 rep?


I have Good Suramaritan and Insurrection complete. You're welcome to check my profile. I said I did /all/ the world quests. Every day. And the emissary if it's up. My emissaries are on cooldown.

I ended /today/ at 19.9k out of 21k for Nightborne rep, and I have not hit revered with ANY other factions yet (getting closer).

I've listed this information out before. In this thread. You assumed I lied before you actually sought to verify my claim. I /am/ doing the work. And it is not acceptable requirements for the reward in hand.

In fact, the only reason I am still seeking to attain the reward now is out of anger. I never want any of my characters to ever touch the ground in Legion again, because now it's a point of spite.

It's acceptable to me because I know they're not going to change their minds. They gave quite a crystal clear answer to this when asked about lowering the requirements for Draenor Pathfinder in BfA or beyond. They said "No". Because they know that the lazy and entitled will simply just wait until the nerf goes into effect.


That's leaning toward stockholme syndrome more than actually agreeing with the devs on a point. "I accept their behavior because their behavior will never change" is not a healthy dynamic. In any context. If that point has been reached, one party or the other should be walking away.

It was also designed to have been done a year ago. If I want gear/transmog from a raid, I still have to run it. That means learning boss fights, staying up later than I want and a whole host of other things. But I do it anyways because I want the reward at the end and I know that's the only way I am going to get it.

Blizzard isn't going to hand me X because I do not have time to play or I lack the fortitude to do a binge session. They've provided me with the tools to do it, it's up to me to use them.


Not a legitimate comparison. This point has also been made before in this thread. No one is expecting flying 'for free.' For a better comparison, you'd need this scenario: To acquire a costume set from a raid, you have to have maxed reputation with a faction associated with the raid, as well as completing all zone quests for the expansion, revered reputation with all other factions in the expansion, and then if you fully clear the raid one more time, you will get the costume on all characters.

If that were the situation, I would find it equally distasteful, and would frankly prefer they just leave the costume as RNG piece drops on bosses.

It's not meant to be persuasive. I don't need to persuade anyone. I'm just telling you how it is. Your liking it or accepting it is immaterial. You either do it and get the reward or you don't. It's as simple as that.


Yet we were both compelled to post here on the forums for our respective opinions. Thus... it's not actually that simple.

Posted by Eralen
And I am now officially too burnt out to bother logging in. I had a few WQs left last night... I just... couldn't anymore. I was spent
Then you have bigger issues than Nightbourne rep.


You noticed. It's called having more important things to do than grinding eight reputations, every quest in the expansion, still-time-gated grind-elements (much less so now, yes, but still there), and several raid/dungeon requirements just so I can use half of my mounts the way they're designed to be used.

If the grind is kept compelling and enjoyable, fair enough.

This is not. The grind itself is not fun at that scale. It is just a job. And now, the reward is only 'I never have to do this job again', not 'YAY, I did it!' -- That is the entire problem I am trying to clarify.

08/20/2018 06:30 PMPosted by Merrymaker
The game was completely different dude.

I agree gating Pathfinder for 8months kinda sucks. but also getting flying at max level with gold isn't healthy for the game.

You actually think it won't change anything.. but in reality people will get burnt out if they already did everything super super fast.

Back then in LK we had 12 million subs.. there was no fancy CRZ/LFR or xmogs... it was a different game.. You just can't..

Do you know what you are asking for? almost like "Hey lets get rid of LFR" now. because back in days we didn't have 4 raid difficulties.. and the game survived and people were fine.

Which won't happen.. Blizzard added Pathfinder, they are sticking with this method.. if they wanted to change it. they would've done that like long time ago.


I was there before flying. I was there when flying released. I was there when three massive rep grinds were required to /get into the door/ of the end game raids.

Change comes from forces acting against each other. Flying was added, flying was taken away... no reason to assume it can't be returned.

The game's only changed in that it gives less player freedom than it used to, and that is making it chafe more and more.

And I have never claimed flying would change anything other than convenience. In fact, my very point is that ALL flying does is make the grind slightly less tedius because you can at least /get around/ easily so the very act of moving from A to B doesn't make you angry.

Essentially, I simply disagree. The lack of flying worsens the game on a simple level of player conveninece for engaging the end-game content.

08/20/2018 06:34 PMPosted by Jalen
The problem this early is that would trivialize the grinding process by cutting the time required to clear them quite significantly. And while this makes a lot of people say....

"Yeah that sounds awesome!"

People aren't considering that the problem then would be everyone sitting in the main faction hubs wondering where the content is. If they go the MoP route and include flying in leveling zones after releasing a new zone for max level characters that have no flying then I think that would be the best solution for the game.


There are always people asking 'where's the content', no matter how much content you put in or don't put in.

If travel time is literally the key foundation of how the game drags out time to keep players paying and playing, that's fairly self evident in being pathetic and recursive.

It also wouldn't actually cut the time that much, that's the irony of it all. It just gives a perception of convenience because you can bee-line from A to B.

Having to spend ten minutes figuring out how to GET TO my world quest objective spot because it's somewhere in a cave in a mountain is not compelling gameplay, it's JUST time wasting.

08/20/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Valkyrija
Really looking forward to getting to max level so I can grind for a month or two straight so I can unlock "Angry Dwarf: The Race" and then get back to max level again so I can do stuff I actually want to do on a race I actually want to play.


Love the phrasing XD

08/20/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Sugekilledez
When/did/the/English/language/start/to/use/slashes/as/a/replacement/for/commas?

Please/enlighten/me?


It's neither. It's literally a short-hand italicize/emphasis reference when it's on two sides of a word.

/this/ instead of this, because the coding annoys me /shrug
There are always people asking 'where's the content', no matter how much content you put in or don't put in.


It's been pretty quiet in terms of that subject within this first week. The only big complaints I've seen is the GCD and scaling.

If travel time is literally the key foundation of how the game drags out time to keep players paying and playing, that's fairly self evident in being pathetic and recursive.


Travel time has always been a huge thing in WoW. With flying you don't have to worry about figuring out if something's high up or down below, taking the scenic route from flight paths, dealing with mobs that are in the way of you and your target ect. ect.

Blizzard wanted players to enjoy the launch and have plenty of things to do to keep people interested. I see no real sin in that.

It also wouldn't actually cut the time that much, that's the irony of it all. It just gives a perception of convenience because you can bee-line from A to B.


You can't really make this statement then follow it up with this.

Having to spend ten minutes figuring out how to GET TO my world quest objective spot because it's somewhere in a cave in a mountain is not compelling gameplay, it's JUST time wasting.


You just made my previous point. People want their time crunched down. If that happened, people would be crying that there's no content.
Your topic choices are telling.

08/20/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Jalen
It's been pretty quiet in terms of that subject within this first week. The only big complaints I've seen is the GCD and scaling.


I have seen all three myself.

08/20/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Jalen
Travel time has always been a huge thing in WoW. With flying you don't have to worry about figuring out if something's high up or down below, taking the scenic route from flight paths, dealing with mobs that are in the way of you and your target ect. ect.

Blizzard wanted players to enjoy the launch and have plenty of things to do to keep people interested. I see no real sin in that.


If that was their actual achievement, I would see no sin in it either. It is not their achievement.

The 'complications' you listed out are, indeed, precisely what flying removes. And that is precisely how flying makes the endgame grinds tolerable. It was originally the reward for having enough gold and being max level for that very reason.

I still mostly ignore that, even stuck with a land-mount, because I'm a prot-paladin. I just bore to the objective, and AoE burn the trained mob packs along with my targets, then bee-line out (or whistle out, to beeline from a better angle).

Enforcing the land mounts does not breed appreciation. It breeds resentment.

08/20/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Jalen
It also wouldn't actually cut the time that much, that's the irony of it all. It just gives a perception of convenience because you can bee-line from A to B.

You can't really make this statement then follow it up with this.

Having to spend ten minutes figuring out how to GET TO my world quest objective spot because it's somewhere in a cave in a mountain is not compelling gameplay, it's JUST time wasting.

You just made my previous point. People want their time crunched down. If that happened, people would be crying that there's no content.


And you chose to jump over this:

If travel time is literally the key foundation of how the game drags out time to keep players paying and playing, that's fairly self evident in being pathetic and recursive.


Consider it my response to your point here.
I have seen all three myself.


I haven't seen "no content" threads running rampant on GD. You're more than welcome to point them out to me. Like I said, people have been more concern about GCD and scaling in my eyes.

If that was their actual achievement, I would see no sin in it either. It is not their achievement.


You say that it isn't their intent but then don't provide what you think it is. Which leaves me nothing in my first point to respond to.

The 'complications' you listed out are, indeed, precisely what flying removes. And that is precisely how flying makes the endgame grinds tolerable. It was originally the reward for having enough gold and being max level for that very reason.


Problem still stands that the "grind" gets trivialized in week one. With everyone being able to ignore all the things that were listed.

I still mostly ignore that, even stuck with a land-mount, because I'm a prot-paladin. I just bore to the objective, and AoE burn the trained mob packs along with my targets, then bee-line out (or whistle out, to beeline from a better angle).


And that's something that benefits you being a tank. You don't get dazed and knocked off your mount and you can pull multiple mobs without a significantly smaller risk of death and use the whistle.

You seem to be utilizing your resources to optimize your time spent in game.

Enforcing the land mounts does not breed appreciation. It breeds resentment.


I'm very appreciative of Blizzard having no flight right out the gate. I love the zones that they've created and love being a part of it. I also appreciate the grinding that I have to do and the risks of being out in the world because i decide to be in warmode.

Your experience bred resentment. Mine and my friends and guildies experience has bred appreciation for Blizzards World Design.

08/20/2018 07:46 PMPosted by Eralen
Consider it my response to your point here.


08/20/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Jalen
Travel time has always been a huge thing in WoW. With flying you don't have to worry about figuring out if something's high up or down below, taking the scenic route from flight paths, dealing with mobs that are in the way of you and your target ect. ect.

Blizzard wanted players to enjoy the launch and have plenty of things to do to keep people interested. I see no real sin in that.


No "jumping over" here.
08/17/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Eralen
TL;DR: There's a difference between 'MMO grind' and 'insulting the player'

There's a balance between 'grind' and respecting a player's time. WoW got ahead of the pack early because it was the most approachable of the MMOs at the time ('hardcore' players like to forget that detail). As it progressed, refinements were made, creating some elements of convenience, usually in exchange for some kind of time-investment.

The concern is that since Warlords, the pendulum of dev focus has swung the other way pretty hard.

An example: in Mists of Pandaria, if you wanted certain enchants or mounts or recipes, you had to get a particular faction to exalted. A time-sink, but you were given a choice of which time-sink you wanted to focus in. Essentially this boiled down to tanks, healers, or DPS focusing on their primary objectives, and then branching out as alts or secondary specs caught their attention.

So progression and achievement was connected to a grind. However, it was not connected to /all the grind/. You could bite it off in pieces of desired function.

/Flying/ was earned by hitting level cap and spending gold, in Mists, Cataclysm, and LK, and BC. It was logical, because you had to at least get to max level, /then/ you had convenience for getting around for the end-game grind. Some zones you couldn't even access without flying, even in BC (it was a single quest area there).

New races or classes were earned either by purchasing the expansion itself, or, again, leveling.

These are grinds that are expected. Logical. The enchant/recipes being locked behind specific reps was a bit painful, but still gave a reason for focus and order of operations rather than /just/ time-sinking.

However, in the last three expansions, BFA, Legion, Warlords, we see a trend of disrepect to player time. Suddenly we're told that flying is something the devs don't like, and that we should be grateful it exists at all... gated behind a omni-grind that, more or less, requires you grind EVERYTHING in an expansion.

Most people do not ever grind everything. They grind /portions/ to achieve their goals.

And now the new races. Which, on the game packaging, do not mention content-achievement requirements at all.

Never before has a core function of an expansion been fully locked behind an /exalted/ rep grind in an /previous/ expansion. And it's well-known that new expansions cause an influx of fresh or returning players. So well-known that even /players/ prepare for it with stockpiles and AHing behavior. There is no way Blizzard did not /know/ a huge number of players would jump in, excited for new races, and /then/ discover the gating mechanism.

So! I am troubled. I feel like the dev team for WoW is actually /antagonizing/ players who don't play the game an extremely specific way, and are deliberately hard-gating content to make it unappealing. Perhaps it's to add prestege.

I personally find that unhealthy in a relationship between a dev-team and their players.

No one asked for flying 'for free', and the races being part of the expansions de-facto makes them 'not free' ($50 purchase, they're part of the package).

Players that asked for flying to work that way it had worked since it was introduced were told /by the mechanics of the game/ that their desire is unreasonable, and requires performing ALL game content for the game to deign to allow (at which point it only really benefits your alts, because your main won't need it anymore).

Players that asked for races they /paid for/ to be available were told /by the mechanics of the game/ that their expectation was unreasonable, and that they must invest /substantially/ in old content that may or may not have interest in to get something they were looking forward to as part of a new toy they bought.

Because it is a toy. A video game. A toy for entertainment.

Saying it 'isn't for casuals' is simply a lie at baseline. Can defend that point as much as you wish to.

My time is respected if I need to play through the basic game, the 'story' (level cap), to be able to get around more easily for the end-game. That has logic to it. There's ebb and flow to it.

My time is respected if I purchased something and actually get to obtain it with the purchase.

My time is respected if I can get something /early/ with a rep-grind. The players that 'earned' their races early still should've gotten the ability with purchase, but the 'early' part can at least add more logic into the mix. That logic no longer applies.

New races make the game more fun. Flying makes the game more fun (for me anyway).

Having both hard-gated is honestly pretty insulting to the players that were hoping for casual fun when they spent their money.

Obviously, this will get the 'suck it up buttercup' response in droves. It always does.

That just doesn't make the response /correct/.

As a note: I do not own BfA. I am not grinding for the new races. I am working on Legion pathfinder... because I do not want any of my alts to have to use a land mount in this logic-forsaken terrain ever again.


If there was an option to LOVE this post... I would.. Beautifully well said sir
Working too hard for something is just as negative as getting something for nothing.


Playing WOW =/= working hard, at least by my opinion. The only thing about this expac that I belive is not worth the effort are treasure chests, since they only reward a paltry amount of war resources and usually require you to go far out of your way and fight many mobs to get.
I like and agree with the OP post. Do much other nonsense posted to read it all.
Simply put, let me pay 10K gold or whatever and fly away..
My time is MY TIME! My job pays me, lately this game does feel like work rather then play.
Not the direction I think it should me going..
But that is just me. If I want to see something I will go see it..
ON MY TIME!!
08/20/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Zamwesell
However, before Blizzard (or really any major publisher/developer these days) can respect a player's time, they have to first respect the player. Blizzard stopped doing that long ago.
That's only because players like you have equated them not being your doormat to "disrespect". Because if they were truly "disrespecting" you, you would not be here on the forums. You would have quit long ago.

But you didn't, because here you are posting...

08/20/2018 06:30 PMPosted by Merrymaker
I agree gating Pathfinder for 8months kinda sucks. but also getting flying at max level with gold isn't healthy for the game.
Most people who complain about Pathfinder never played Cataclysm when it was current. That was the expansion that really soured the devs on flying. Because the new zones were so tightly integrated into Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms there was no way they could restrict us from flying in the zones off the bat.

And the devs saw what we did... pick up quest, fly to area, complete objective, fly back. Rinse and repeat. It was probably the fasted leveling of the game ever. There was no sense of danger, no real exploration of the world. It wasn't a problem in Vashj'ir and Deepholm because the former was underwater and the latter was designed with flight in mind much like Icecrown Glacier.

MoP was already in development when this was happening so Warlords of Draenor was where they tried to remove flight altogether... and we all know how that turned out.

08/21/2018 12:33 AMPosted by Redseal
Simply put, let me pay 10K gold or whatever and fly away..
They already said "No". You have two options:

1) Deal with pathfinder
2) They remove Pathfinder AND Flight from the game

Which do you want?

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