Blizzard is pay to win?

General Discussion
08/19/2018 11:13 AMPosted by Groodge
08/19/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Kaiyeri
No. You just don't understand the definition of pay to win. Go actually play a pay to win MMO and learn what it really means.


"at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."
It's not "largely unbalanced," nor is it difficult to get THE SAME STUFF at almost THE SAME TIME when you can craft or have a friend craft it for free.

How do you not get this?
08/19/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Kaiyeri
you are trying to changing the definition of pay to win
No. You just don't understand the definition of pay to win. Go actually play a pay to win MMO and learn what it really means.


ok so let me ask you this, if a person throws in a newly dropped epic from bfa.
throws it in the ah for say 1.5 million gold.

a person buys enough tokens to buy said epic which will give a distinct advantage, then how is that not sorta pay to win. and yes i do know what pay to win means.
08/19/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Kaiyeri
No. You just don't understand the definition of pay to win. Go actually play a pay to win MMO and learn what it really means.


ok so let me ask you this, if a person throws in a newly dropped epic from bfa.
throws it in the ah for say 1.5 million gold.

a person buys enough tokens to buy said epic which will give a distinct advantage, then how is that not sorta pay to win. and yes i do know what pay to win means.
Because someone else sitting on the 5 mil they earned can buy the same freaking weapon at the same time.

How many times do we all have to explain that to you?
08/19/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Groodge
Is Wow Pay to win?

Definition of pay to win- In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win"

Topic 1 - boosting

So 2 players of the same skill of the same spec start a new character.

player 1 pays $60 For a Arms Warrior 110 (starts with the boosted gear ilvl)

Player 2 Starts at level 1 and Levels to 110 (Takes him say a month at 110 he also has lesser ilvl)

Is player 1 considered a pay to win character because he clearly has a advantage with better gear and time to invest in gearing his character?

Topic 2 Wow Tokens

Player 1 who is a arms wariror level 110 with boosted gear /level Buys a wow token for $20. Sells this token for 130k gold Buys a nice Epic Weapon in AH for 100k gold and buys Flasks and potions with the rest of the gold.

Player 2 Arms warrior has got around 25k gold and cant afford the 100k epic weapon in AH. so is stuck with an old level 105 weapon he found when questing.

IF player 1 fights player 2 in a duel (both have same skill)

Player 1 would have a clear advantage right?

The advantage is first that he can buy ingame items/currency and levels with real world currency greatly speeding his progress in game. Saving him many hours if not days over player 2.

This makes Player 2 angry Because he played the game and leveled.

Player 2 is at a big disadvantage over player 1 and player 1 is happy because he has an advantage over other players.

THis is pay to win right?


Your definition of pay to win is flawed. Pay to win is when a player gets an advantage in ANY game, "even a tiny one," that CANNOT be obtained in game thru reasonable effort. If it takes you a month to level, then you're not trying. You may be behind someone who boosted, but they will reach a ceiling where you catch up, assuming equal effort is put in.
im glad i have a job and these kind of purchases no longer really matter to me. Kind of nice to be able to pay a few bucks to catch up to people who invest their time.

Some invest time, some invest money, some do both.
WoW is nowhere near pay-to-win. Buying a boost does not complete the game content for you or earn the latest gear in the game. Neither does buying gold via the WoW token.
I think the OP is right and you guys are in denial (no gamer really wants to be branded as someone playing a ptw game). Any extra payments to the company to give you any advantage, whether it be time or gear, is pay to win.

It's like going to Disneyland and waiting in line for Space Mountain and getting bypassed by the Fast Pass folks who paid extra to be allowed to cut in line.

same...thing...
you're a !@#$in idiot
08/19/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Ritchie
I think the OP is right and you guys are in denial (no gamer really wants to be branded as someone playing a ptw game). Any extra payments to the company to give you any advantage, whether it be time or gear, is pay to win.

It's like going to Disneyland and waiting in line for Space Mountain and getting bypassed by the Fast Pass folks who paid extra to be allowed to cut in line.

same...thing...
No. It's not the same thing at all. And I don't buy tokens or boosts or anything like that. But I'm able to end up in the same gear and with same stuff as friends all on my own, right alongside them.

You're describing "pay to push" not "pay to win." Boosts and tokens don't automatically put you into Mythic end game raiding that no one else can reach on their own.

And someone else already mentioned pay to push on page one.
08/19/2018 11:12 AMPosted by Kaiyeri
...No. You just don't understand the definition of pay to win. Go actually play a pay to win MMO and learn what it really means.


ok so let me ask you this, if a person throws in a newly dropped epic from bfa.
throws it in the ah for say 1.5 million gold.

a person buys enough tokens to buy said epic which will give a distinct advantage, then how is that not sorta pay to win. and yes i do know what pay to win means.


Buying a piece of gear doesn't mean you win anything. You aren't going to be a better player by doing that.
08/19/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Kaiyeri
08/19/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Ritchie
I think the OP is right and you guys are in denial (no gamer really wants to be branded as someone playing a ptw game). Any extra payments to the company to give you any advantage, whether it be time or gear, is pay to win.

It's like going to Disneyland and waiting in line for Space Mountain and getting bypassed by the Fast Pass folks who paid extra to be allowed to cut in line.

same...thing...
No. It's not the same thing at all. And I don't buy tokens or boosts or anything like that. But I'm able to end up in the same gear and with same stuff as friends all on my own, right alongside them.

You're describing "pay to push" not "pay to win." Boosts and tokens don't automatically put you into Mythic end game raiding that no one else can reach on their own.

And someone else already mentioned pay to push on page one.


Still paying for an advantage. In my analogy, the person getting the "push" gets to ride more rides that day. Think of it as entertaining content. The person who doesn't pay for that "push" gets to wait in line... grind (leveling) to get to that same point. Yeah, while you're waiting in line for two hours, you can enjoy watching the same ol' videos and hear the same cheezy jokes, but hey, you'll get there eventually! Hey, while you're trudging along, you'll periodically hear an announcement about how you too can obtain your very own fast pass!
08/19/2018 11:36 AMPosted by Ritchie
08/19/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Kaiyeri
...No. It's not the same thing at all. And I don't buy tokens or boosts or anything like that. But I'm able to end up in the same gear and with same stuff as friends all on my own, right alongside them.

You're describing "pay to push" not "pay to win." Boosts and tokens don't automatically put you into Mythic end game raiding that no one else can reach on their own.

And someone else already mentioned pay to push on page one.


Still paying for an advantage. In my analogy, the person getting the "push" gets to ride more rides that day. Think of it as entertaining content. The person who doesn't pay for that "push" gets to wait in line... grind (leveling) to get to that same point. Yeah, while you're waiting in line for two hours, you can enjoy watching the same ol' videos and hear the same cheezy jokes, but hey, you'll get there eventually! Hey, while you're trudging along, you'll periodically hear an announcement about how you too can obtain your very own fast pass!
Waiting in a line isn't anywhere near the same as a pay to win game. At all.

A person riding more rides doesn't equate to someone who can buy the same piece of gear with gold they earned at the same time as someone who bought a token to buy that piece.

Nor does it equate to A FREE BOOST that EVERYONE GETS.

Try actually playing a pay to win game and stop comparing apples to tires.
F2p models not considered pay to win are generally the following:

- buying cosmetics

- buying time

- buying convenience

boosting and wow tokens are buying time, so not really pay to win, sorry.
08/19/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Mescyn
F2p models not considered pay to win are generally the following:

- buying cosmetics

- buying time

- buying convenience

boosting and wow tokens are buying time, so not really pay to win, sorry.


That depends on what you consider "winning" the game. Winning means something different to different people.
08/19/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Ritchie
08/19/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Mescyn
F2p models not considered pay to win are generally the following:

- buying cosmetics

- buying time

- buying convenience

boosting and wow tokens are buying time, so not really pay to win, sorry.


That depends on what you consider "winning" the game. Winning means something different to different people.


Business practices in f2p games that are all considered acceptable are in that list, though. Real pay to win games tend to include competitive advantages you can only obtain with money (not merely time in the case of wow, or convenience items like bag slots/extra action buttons like in some f2p mmos).
...and with PTW games, you don't actually win when you pay... you pay with money what time and effort would have gotten you otherwise, which gives you the advantage of time and convenience...and probably cosmetics, because, hey, that item looks really niiice.
You could say "Oh can't players just spend gold to get full 350 BoE epics off the Auction House?"
And you'd be right..They can.
But none of those items off the Auction House are Best in Slot so it's not worth it all what so ever.
The players item level may be high, but someone who is the same class as them with BiS gear will out perform them.
08/19/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Ritchie
...and with PTW games, you don't actually win when you pay... you pay with money what time and effort would have gotten you otherwise, which gives you the advantage of time and convenience...and probably cosmetics, because, hey, that item looks really niiice.


No. Real pay to win games have items you can't obtain in-game that are often the best items available. There is a clear competitive advantage there, and it's not cosmetic nor is it time or convenience.
This isn't pay to win.

If you want to see pay to win in all of its glory you should try,

Albion Online.

That game quite literally gives you exp boosts, stat boosts, a gold market that lets you buy top tier gear but can also be purchased with real world money. Also if I'm not mistaken you can literally boost yourself through tiers so.

World of Warcraft isn't 100% not pay to win but I'd say it is a little under the bar that is required to be pay2win.

Now if they start introducing gear that is locked behind an extra paywall, or having to pay to get allied races as some weirdos in the forums have been suggesting lately then WoW would be pay to win.
Well you have to pay for a subscription so technically yes.

You should check out Tibia. Now THAT'S pay to win.

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