Not enjoying Disc PVE as much as I'd hope.

Priest
08/21/2018 07:59 AMPosted by Sacredote
Disc has always been and will always be the most difficult healer spec.


MoP Disc says hi.
I look at it like this. Being in pugs, and having to deal with avoidable damage, makes me a better healer. My reaction times are improved, I am constantly on edge and learning to see things coming before the pug does in an effort to mitigate the damage they are fixing to take.

Chaotic game play is stressful but if you alter your perspective to view it as a good thing, you will have a much better time than currently.
So glad to see this thread turns out to be a vivid discussion of the Disc play style.

Again, as a priest who has raided through 7 expansions, perhaps I can provide more insight with the grand picture in mind.

As an effective healer, there used to be just two components: throughput and utilities. Throughput, a.k.a your total HPS, is paramount, because if your total HPS is less than the total damage-taken-per-second of the group, you are destined to wipe.

Starting with Cataclysm, utilities became more and more important. IMO, it all started with Shaman's heroism in WotLK expansion. Boss fight mechanisms became so complex that classes were given big-time cooldowns to mitigate them. They are fun and do make you feel like a hero in a virtual world.

When the healing world was governed by throughput and utilities, Disc and Holy were very much balanced. Then the elephant came to the room: Mythic+ dungeons.


In most raid encounters, DPS check is important but often not the ultimate game-changer (forget about M'uru in Sunwell Plateau). On the other hand, Mythic+ is all about damage output. It's about beating that timer, which means Mythic+ content by definition IS a DPS check all day long. Having a damage-dealing healer grants tremendous advantage, obviously.

However, like in all video games, your strength is paid by your weakness. While Disc may have the same utilities, its throughput has suffered to compensate for the fact you are able to deal damage.

This difference is amplified at the beginning of an expansion, because Disc is definitively more gear-dependent. I think currently the throughput of Disc is simply not there. It is definitively inadequate when your PUG is not well geared and players are learning the new content.

Last word on the UI. Playing Disc is so painful. In Vanilla and BC, healing is called "playing whack-a-mole with 40 moles". It gets better these days with 20-man raid. But honestly, after a full day of work, I'm really not in the mood of looking at 20 HP bars, and 6 enemy bars, and tracking 8 atonement timers. A piano has only 88 keys.
08/22/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Myracle
ya I do. My complaint about AoE healing was between pulls where there isn't an enemy to hit and the other complaint was when you need a panic button like tranquility. Rapture feels slow at this

Again, I'd direct you towards talents. Both Shadow Covenant and Contrition are good at this.
Disc isn't for everyone, which is why its so highly endorsed. A truly unique healing spec that allows the player to make use of the high skill ceiling. I started running mythics last week at 290 with a 295 prot warrior tank, we had some hiccups but we managed to clear king's rest. If everyone is following mechanics then you have more then enough healing output to keep everyone alive, and if they are failing mechanics then it isn't your fault.
I love disc, however I feel like atonement should be a 30 second buff, up from 15.

Or give us more "aoe" ways to apply it, or refresh it.

Like, instead of contrition a talent that says -

"Smite add's 1 second to each atonement that is active"

Managing atonement is my only grip with disc, it feels clunky.
08/22/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Jøhnø
I love disc, however I feel like atonement should be a 30 second buff, up from 15.

Or give us more "aoe" ways to apply it, or refresh it.

Like, instead of contrition a talent that says -

"Smite add's 1 second to each atonement that is active"

Managing atonement is my only grip with disc, it feels clunky.


The PvP Talent "Arch Angel" is so good at this. It's one of those abilities that disc should have on PvE
08/21/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Lloydgänks
The class, is fun, when things go right. But that is so extremely rare, that playing this class 95% of the time is so damn stressful.


No, it's really not, at least not anymore than any other healing class. I'm not claiming it's not your experiance because that's obvious.

08/21/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Lloydgänks
But no where did I read that this class was specifically designed to be played with exceptional players.


The exceptional player is supposed to be you. I'm not being sarcastic. A lot of people can purchase a fast sports car and not know how to drive it correctly.

08/21/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Lloydgänks
At least, this is what it feels like. I've not had a single smooth run.


Well there are many reason that can happen. I've had more good runs than bad. When the bad happens it's always someone not doing what they're supposed to. It's nothing to blame on class mechanics. Instead of looking at them why not look at what you could of done differnlty in those situations?

08/21/2018 07:53 AMPosted by Lloydgänks
I was doing a Mythic dungeons with a Demon Hunter as tank. They are quite squishy from a Tank perspective. I had to pop every CD imaginable in order to keep this dude alive. If any of my DPS took a hit, they were likely going to die. I simply could NOT DPS to heal with a DH as tank. My healing output when DPS'ing wasn't enough to stabilize the incoming damage on him. So I was forced to spam shadow mend and all my CD's. This obviously has an impact on the rest of the group not benefiting from my group-wide healing when DPS'ing. I feel as if the design of my class is thrown out the window most of the time I enter dungeons, and I am basically a shadow mend spam bot.


There will always be great, undergeared, medicore and terrible tanks running about. I've had a couple just like you've mentioned but at no time did I blame my class. I was still able to heal them and get through the instance. Not every group is method like but imo this will make you a better healer.

So this brongs me to what I believe is going on with you.

1: You'e playing it wrong and this more than any other factor is causing your grief. I will assume that you have zero mythic plus experiance playing disc. Now, I'm not hammering you because of that, I'm just pointing out that you lack the needed experiance to deal with 5 mans when there is pressure coming from difficulty. What you need to do is to adjust your play to it and not throw in ther towl as if your way is the only way to deal with it.

2: Looking over your talents there is nothing in BFA currently that would benefit from a build like that. If that's what you've been running, I can guarantee you that that is another reason for you having such difficulties.

Spec like this:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/game/talent-calculator#priest/discipline/talents=3331321

You wantSchism . You'll never use anything else on that row raiding or 5 mans. Yes, some people use castigation but it's minor compared to what Schism gives you.

Shadow Covenant. This one spell will make your pug life that much easier. Trust me. I will cast PW Rad right after then follow up with Pen (if needed). It is not a bad talent. Not inly will it help you get out of tough situations, it also allows you to move to the next group faster without siting there spamming SM all day.

So let's take a couple of examples on healing certain situations.

Tank pulls a group a large pack of mobs. He is your DH and is getting wreaked. You can do one of two things here.
A: Pain Sup and spam SM/Pen on him (and make sure to dispel magical debuff).
b: Use Rapture to spam it on the tank making sure to watch the timer and shields dropping. This will normally stablize him and allow you to expand your view of things other than his bar.

Do not sit on your CDs. Most of the time adds will be rough enough to use them and they have a short CD anyway.

For group healing: I don't keep atonement up at all times on the entire group. It's simply not needed the majority of the time. Of course there are situations on cetain bosses and mobs that you most likely will, but otherwise throw a shield to apply a quick Atonement.

Let's say we pull a nasty group of mobs where things aren't getting intrupted etc. I start with PW Rad then Schism+Pen a mob (Or boss) and if the group is still low I will SC and use another PW Rad. This normally will take you out of danger. You can then SM, dot and Smite when thongs stablize . Since SC is on a 12sec CD, I will always use it in these situations. But let's also not neglect Rapture here. It can litereally stop a wipe on it's own. So if the above doesn't cut it use it too.

Schism + Pen + Smite spam does a lot of healing. You have to learn to judge what type of damage is incoming and how you're going to react to it. There are lots of times when a tank is sitting at half HP and is just fine. Same goes for DPS. A HP bar not at full is nothign to be concenred about unless they are targetted and it continues to go down. Learn to prioritize.

It's certainly not true that we can't handle unexpected damage. I do all the time just fine and you can too.

One other thing - healing UI. I can't state how important is is for you to have one that you're comfortable with and one which has everything you need to see clearly. I don't have to wonder about my atonements. My UI displays it in a manner that doesn't even require me to really look at it to know who it's on or not.
I haven’t made my way to mythcs yet but in heroics I am finding that if the group is good my healing is more than sufficient enough to keep everybody at full. I have only had a couple of disasters and tha was simply bad dps being bad, or a tank still playing like it’s Legion and pulling more than they can handle.

It’s true holy probably has a better bad player dps insurance plan than disc. But if the group is solid, they interrupt and don’t stand in stuff, keeping folks alive while helping them kill stuff faster is really not an issue. This spec does what it’s supposed to do. If you fully grasp it and understand every button on your hot bar and then learn the mechanics of the dungeon then you shouldn’t need to feel to run to holy because it’s more comfortable.
08/22/2018 08:33 PMPosted by Sedna

However, like in all video games, your strength is paid by your weakness. While Disc may have the same utilities, its throughput has suffered to compensate for the fact you are able to deal damage.

This difference is amplified at the beginning of an expansion, because Disc is definitively more gear-dependent. I think currently the throughput of Disc is simply not there. It is definitively inadequate when your PUG is not well geared and players are learning the new content.


I mean you've already stated that you have issues tracking atonement. I started doing Mythics at 310 and I was PUGGING them with players who were as or less geared than I was.

Disc has more than enough throughput if you know what you're doing.
I struggled a bit on the worm pulls in Underrot on my Disc today, but tbh I'm not sure it would have been much better on another healer (maybe Holy Priest with Hymns, Resto Sham with Ascendance, RDruid with Tranq/Flourish). Two warlocks and a Shadow Priest meant things died kinda slow, and whatever move the worms do that put a DoT on the party hurt a ton. All but the tank ate dirt on that one, and not him most likely because he was crazy geared. Mass Dispel and Rapture were helpful for the first pull but was still on CD for the second bout.

Most other dungeons I've felt pretty in control with Rapture, Pain Suppression, PW:Radiance into Penance/Mindbender. Might shuffle my talents around a bit for less solo/PVP stuff and more PVE if I'm going to keeping pugging dungeons.
I agree with much of the OP; especially in that Discs performance is largely predicated on your group playing well, at least more so than other healers.

If someone is a silly boy and face pulls the second pack or doesn't interrupt some ability I can push buttons after the health bars drop on my MW and pump 20k HPS to get the group back to safety. I can't do the same as quickly on my Disc.

Disc requires setup and timing. Being 2 or 3 GCD's behind can mean a wipe or deaths.

That being said; this is a phenomenon that only exists in lower level content like the M0's we are all farming now. Once we get into high keys a serious mistake and bad play from your group is a wipe regardless of what healer you're playing.

The most important aspect to a smooth run at the moment is a good tank. Good tanks don't require much more than Atonement healing. Mediocre tanks or good players who picked BDK (lel) require the same with some spot SM healing and bad tanks die through SM spam.

I'd also say that Disc feels much better with good traits and some Haste. Talents suited for dungeons helps a lot too.
I love disc, however I feel like atonement should be a 30 second buff, up from 15.

Like, instead of contrition a talent that says -

"Smite add's 1 second to each atonement that is active"

Please god no. I understand why everyone says this, but you haven't thought it through. Atonement used to last longer in early Legion, and Disc was much worse for it. With longer atonements, you can have atonement up on a larger percentage of the raid simultaneously. Since every dps cast heals everyone for the same, you need to reduce the spell power or healing transfer to balance. This means when healing small groups, atonement would tickle and be even less effective, and we'd have less effective burst healing than before. Atonement lasts as long as it does for a reason, and it's not to frustrate you.

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