Video proof of broken PVE scaling

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I feel like the two sides of this are talking past eachother. One side is saying "of course it works like this, because scaling", and the other side is saying "scaling is bad because it works like this".

To compare it to something else, one side is saying "of course your face hurts, it just got punched", while the other is saying "i don't like getting punched in the face because it hurts".
08/24/2018 02:07 AMPosted by Hòóligan

It's 1 week into the expansion. Your in a brand new max level dungeon and you're mad you're not performing the same as a 110 in the same dungeon but scaled to legacy levels with 110 stat weights? Are you actually retarded?


A fresh 120 should be more powerful than a perfectly itemized mythic 110. I can't believe you had the nerve to call someone else retarded.
08/24/2018 06:27 AMPosted by Kissmyhámmer
it sucks, it's broke, something that never should of happened. i'm just curious as to why they say there looking into it. ain't it a little late to be looking into it, shouldn't it have done been taken care of when the expansion released? this expansion is straight garbage from the start, i guess it's to much to ask that stuff like this should of done been taken care of long ago. i have no faith anymore in actually getting an expansion that is good to go. legion was a disaster from the start, ya you remember how awesome it was with the whole legendary system, ap all that garbage. i'm really disappointed in class design cause there's people playing classes that are straight garbage right now and whats their response we will get to it. !@#$ that, i buy expansions to play whatever i want and be competitive, there is no excuse for any of this stuff to be an issue, it should of been done at release, it's just to much to ask anymore i guess.


Scaling issues like this happen because your math is wrong. When your math is wrong in an equation that is used across all of WoW, it can lead to other problems down the line. Lots of stuff scales.

Plus the fact that people make alts all the time. "It's a little late" sort of implies that no one in the world has a sub-120 character currently or will ever make an alt.
08/24/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Patchs
You know that Normal dungeons are the only ones that scale, right?


You know there are things besides dungeons which scale, right?

Do you really believe they got world scaling right when dungeon scaling is this wrong?
08/24/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Valshaw
I honestly don’t understand what all the hubbub is about. Mobs scaling out in the world has been around since 7.2 and they changed nothing about it for BfA, why are people throwing a tantrum now and not a year and a half ago when it came out?


The mob scaling supposedly has not changed if you believe what they say.

However, what is undeniable is that there was a stat squish. The stat squish caused their poorly written formulas to break. There were also many bugs.

Do you not remember all of the balance problems from the pre-patch? The daily hotfixes? The fact that lower level characters, THE ONES AFFECTED MOST BY WORLD SCALING, basically couldn't level?

Are we really going to put on the rose-colored glasses and ignore a massive problem from a MONTH ago?
08/24/2018 11:41 AMPosted by Darien
08/24/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Valshaw
I honestly don’t understand what all the hubbub is about. Mobs scaling out in the world has been around since 7.2 and they changed nothing about it for BfA, why are people throwing a tantrum now and not a year and a half ago when it came out?


The mob scaling supposedly has not changed if you believe what they say.

However, what is undeniable is that there was a stat squish. The stat squish caused their poorly written formulas to break. There were also many bugs.

Do you not remember all of the balance problems from the pre-patch? The daily hotfixes? The fact that lower level characters, THE ONES AFFECTED MOST BY WORLD SCALING, basically couldn't level?

Are we really going to put on the rose-colored glasses and ignore a massive problem from a MONTH ago?

Are you really going to carry on with your conspiracy theories about this not changing since 7.2?

Listen; just because you don't like something, doesn't mean you should go so far as to create inaccurate information for the masses.

The real issue here is you just don't like scaling. You think it's bad, because you don't feel like you're getting stronger.

The fact of the matter is, this game and many others include scaling to keep the world relevant. There is nothing fun or exciting about the open world being as strong as a level 1 NPC once you get some 5 man dungeon gear. If that's how you think the game should operate, we have different views.

The reality here is, as you get 5 man dungeon gear, you do kill things faster. I ran all my mythics this week in 340+ only groups, because I'm 340. The dungeons were incredibly easy to heal, and we cleared them much quicker than last week. The DPS was higher, the mobs died faster, and it was a good time.

My shadow set is far better than it was last week, and now I am killing mobs in a quarter of the time I was last week.

I'm not experiencing the same things you are. A lot of people aren't either. You're exaggerating a point, providing mathematically UN-sound tests, and presenting them to everyone to see.

Just stop.
08/24/2018 09:23 AMPosted by Suntide

Shouldn’t a dungeon at 110 be easier then 120?


No. The damage numbers, health, etc at 120 should be objectively higher than the 110 numbers. But it's the same dungeon. It should be the same challenge level, if not harder for the 110.

Shouldn't a 120 be stronger than a 110?


Dungeons scale with level... not ilevel.
This has noting to do with ilevel scale. Don’t spread misinformation.


Got any proof for that? You really think Blizzard scales world mobs and dungeon mobs different when they clearly cannot do either properly? Ion was on an interview yesterday discussing in no uncertain terms, including numbers, how NPC scaling works. Item level is a factor.
So cap yourself at 110 and see how that works out for you.
Blizzard really messed up with this. The entire scaling system needs to be removed. Bring back what made World of Warcraft fun to play to begin with, proper leveling and abilities--that's it. Scaling has no place in an MMORPG.
08/24/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Lucroarna

Are you really going to carry on with your conspiracy theories about this not changing since 7.2?


It's not a conspiracy theory. The stat squish clearly broke their scaling tech in ways they do not understand.

If the director of WoW admitting the problem exists and apologizing for it doesn't prove that there is a huge issue, then I guess you are just determined to be wrong and there is no reason to bother speaking to you. You can sit there and make whatever accusations about my agenda that you want. People who are determined to be wrong don't matter and I don't care.

Game Director of WoW discussed the stat squish / scaling disaster:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/286658051

Game Director of WoW admits scaling is broken and that they don't even know why:
https://www.pcgamer.com/world-of-warcrafts-early-level-combat-is-broken-and-blizzard-doesnt-know-how-to-fix-it/

Ion is delusional in believing that these problems are outliers. They need to admit that they screwed up and fix this issue correctly instead of pretending everything is working as intended while applying bandaids every day.

This scaling problem is endemic. While leveling, I have killed level 122 mobs at 114 or below that require a raid group to easily beat at max level. I could pull 50 things and be at absolutely zero risk of dying. I'm not going to sit here and make videos of every such encounter because I'd have to go back and do literally fight in the game two more times, make videos, and upload them just for the people like you to come out and steadfastly argue that it's working as intended even if I uppercut a raid boss into the sun.

What matters is that Blizzard will see this post when it gets big enough. Even if they aren't willing to admit it publicly until a hotfix is ready, I am confident that handing them proof of an issue is enough to get them to look at it. They want the game to be good. I think sometimes they just don't know how or let their egos get in the way of admitting a problem.
08/24/2018 02:13 AMPosted by Darien
The problem is that the 110 has absolute garbage gear for the content because he's fresh off the boat.


The problem is that this simply isn't the case. The 110 has very, very good gear.

I don't like the way scaling works in that it makes leveling up feel like a punishment, that the only actual reward is the ability to unlock the new grind for gear.

But as long as we're going to have scaling, there are only 2 sensible options I can see: first, have a massive power spike in gear so that entry level 110 quest greens are more powerful than mythic antorus gear. This is undesirable for a few reasons.

Or B: accept that a raid-geared 110 from the final patch of the expac vs normal 110 dungeon mobs will outperform a dungeon geared 120 from the first patch of the expac vs normal 120 dungeon mobs. Call it a minor issue, because it is, because the raid geared 110 can't do anything meaningful to prepare for current content other than get some xp. They don't get anything that helps them do current raids, current heroic dungeons, current anything.

Well geared toons from the end of the previous expansion have always had a very easy time in the first few levels of a new expansion. The scaling isn't broken, it's how the scaling should work. The only way for this to not be an issue is to remove scaling altogether. And it's a design choice that the benefits of scaling outweigh downsides like this.
seems to be working as intended .... hahaha
08/24/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Becadiaf
08/24/2018 02:13 AMPosted by Darien
The problem is that the 110 has absolute garbage gear for the content because he's fresh off the boat.


The problem is that this simply isn't the case. The 110 has very, very good gear.


No gear from 110 is good. If you make that argument, you are immediately wrong and nothing you say matters.

It's an RPG. If gear doesn't improve, then there is no point.
08/24/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Becadiaf
Well geared toons from the end of the previous expansion have always had a very easy time in the first few levels of a new expansion. The scaling isn't broken, it's how the scaling should work. The only way for this to not be an issue is to remove scaling altogether. And it's a design choice that the benefits of scaling outweigh downsides like this.

Exactly.

The way the outdoor world functions in Battle for Azeroth is exactly how Legion worked, in virtually every regard. But looking farther back, an endgame-geared character from the prior expansion having a harder and harder time killing things as they level is how WoW has worked since its very first expansion, The Burning Crusade. As you move into new content, you face progressively stronger foes. If you aren’t replacing your gear as you level because you’re already overgeared for your level, then in relative terms you're going to feel weaker against same-level enemies.

Specifically, level 110 enemies are tuned to be a fair fight for someone who just quested through Legion and hit 110 wearing items along the way (average item level of, say, 160 or so). That's essential, or fresh 110s moving into Battle for Azeroth content would run into a frustrating brick wall of difficulty. But it means that if you are level 110 wearing Argus gear and legendaries (average item level of, say, 230 or even higher), you’re massively overpowered in relative terms. Easily twice as strong as someone who just quested through Legion and did nothing else. And that’s nothing new - that's power progression, and the reward for the time spent on Argus and elsewhere strengthening your character.

But moving on, level 117 enemies are tuned to be a fair fight for someone who is wearing quest rewards from level 117 quests. The same player above in Argus gear will only recently have started to find upgrades from quests, and is actually now wearing nearly the exact same gear as the player who leveled straight through without doing Legion endgame content. This is exactly how it worked 4 years ago when someone wearing Siege of Orgrimmar gear was wrecking level 90 enemies in Frostfire or Shadowmoon at 90, and then started to have a tough time against level 97 mobs in Spires of Arak at level 97. Higher-level enemies are tougher.

Again, nothing new. The only difference is that, since Legion, one Antorus-geared player may have started in Tiragarde Sound and steamrolled it at 110, before running into resistance in Drustvar at 117, while another Antorus-geared player may have started in Drustvar and had an easy time at 110, only to find tougher enemies at 117 in Tiragarde, depending on the order in which they each chose to tackle the zones. It admittedly can feel awkward to return to a specific dungeon or a specific area and find that the enemies there have effectively grown stronger while you were away, but that is what enables flexibility in zone choice when leveling, and makes the entire world relevant at max level, a core part of what made Legion's outdoor world experience successful.

The pre-Legion design, applied to Battle for Azeroth Horde content, might have gone like this: Zuldazar and Atal’dazar could be 110-114 content, Vol’dun and Temple of Sethraliss 113-117, and Nazmir and Underrot 116-120. That would likely have felt better in terms of rationalizing increasing world difficulty as you level, but it would have come at the expense of a more linear leveling experience, after which those zones would be largely irrelevant at endgame. We feel that the upsides of having the outdoor world continue to be relevant, and be a place where we can tell ongoing War Campaign stories and stage other content, for the months to come, are worth that increased awkwardness while leveling.

Finally, looking at the max-level experience, players are already objectively much stronger than they were at 110 in Legion. We’re starting to see random pickup groups going back and doing Mythic Antorus with ilvl ~330 level 120 characters, for achievements and transmog, and an ilvl 330 PUG kills Mythic Argus the Unmaker in about 5 minutes. Top raid guilds were doing it in ~9 minutes at 110 just a few weeks ago. There's no special scaling or legacy buff involved: People are simply stronger now than they were a month ago, when fighting the same old foes.

At max level, everything you do to upgrade your gear and the power of your Heart of Azeroth will make your experience playing the game relatively easier. We’ve seen no data whatsoever to support claims that a fresh 120 has an easier time with any content, outdoors or otherwise, than one who has improved their gear through doing dungeons and world quests and the like. A player in ilvl 330 gear is killing world quest foes more than 40% faster than someone who just hit 120 at ilvl 280, while having a much larger health pool (and, again, enemy damage output isn't scaling up at all). That relative strength will continue to increase over the weeks to come with every additional bit of gear and additional Azerite powers acquired.

Philosophically, we completely agree that progression is an essential part of an RPG experience. Rewards need to mean something, and their impact needs to be felt when playing the game. To the extent that we compromise that value in some places, it's never done lightly, and is always in service of a what we view as a greater benefit elsewhere (in this case, the ability to choose a non-linear path through zones while leveling, and having the entirety of the new world remaining relevant at 120, instead of just small pieces of it).
Pretty much what I said ^
And he's 100% correct.
08/24/2018 12:58 PMPosted by Watcher
Exactly.


Thanks for the rare GD reply, Watcher!

I remember this same thing in Mists of Pandaria. I had full DS heroic gear, so 410s in every slot. I didn't even get a single upgrade that was more powerful until late in Townlong and early in Dread Wastes. A good portion of the early quests myself and my leveling partners absolutely destroyed, but by the time we hit 89 and we were in Dread Wastes things were much, much harder.

And then it became one of the daily areas. We were weak, until we started to get gear from Mogu'shan and Heart of Fear/ToES. Remember Sra'vess as a fresh 90?
08/24/2018 12:58 PMPosted by Watcher
08/24/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Becadiaf
Well geared toons from the end of the previous expansion have always had a very easy time in the first few levels of a new expansion. The scaling isn't broken, it's how the scaling should work. The only way for this to not be an issue is to remove scaling altogether. And it's a design choice that the benefits of scaling outweigh downsides like this.

Exactly.

The way the outdoor world functions in Battle for Azeroth is exactly how Legion worked, in virtually every regard. But looking farther back, an endgame-geared character from the prior expansion having a harder and harder time killing things as they level is how WoW has worked since its very first expansion, The Burning Crusade. As you move into new content, you face progressively stronger foes. If you aren’t replacing your gear as you level because you’re already overgeared for your level, then in relative terms you're going to feel weaker against same-level enemies.

Specifically, level 110 enemies are tuned to be a fair fight for someone who just quested through Legion and hit 110 wearing items along the way (average item level of, say, 160 or so). That's essential, or fresh 110s moving into Battle for Azeroth content would run into a frustrating brick wall of difficulty. But it means that if you are level 110 wearing Argus gear and legendaries (average item level of, say, 230 or even higher), you’re massively overpowered in relative terms. Easily twice as strong as someone who just quested through Legion and did nothing else. And that’s nothing new - that's power progression, and the reward for the time spent on Argus and elsewhere strengthening your character.

But moving on, level 117 enemies are tuned to be a fair fight for someone who is wearing quest rewards from level 117 quests. The same player above in Argus gear will only recently have started to find upgrades from quests, and is actually now wearing nearly the exact same gear as the player who leveled straight through without doing Legion endgame content. This is exactly how it worked 4 years ago when someone wearing Siege of Orgrimmar gear was wrecking level 90 enemies in Frostfire or Shadowmoon at 90, and then started to have a tough time against level 97 mobs in Spires of Arak at level 97. Higher-level enemies are tougher.

Again, nothing new. The only difference is that, since Legion, one Antorus-geared player may have started in Tiragarde Sound and steamrolled it at 110, before running into resistance in Drustvar at 117, while another Antorus-geared player may have started in Drustvar and had an easy time at 110, only to find tougher enemies at 117 in Tiragarde, depending on the order in which they each chose to tackle the zones. It admittedly can feel awkward to return to a specific dungeon or a specific area and find that the enemies there have effectively grown stronger while you were away, but that is what enables flexibility in zone choice when leveling, and makes the entire world relevant at max level, a core part of what made Legion's outdoor world experience successful.

The pre-Legion design, applied to Battle for Azeroth Horde content, might have gone like this: Zuldazar and Atal’dazar could be 110-114 content, Vol’dun and Temple of Sethraliss 113-117, and Nazmir and Underrot 116-120. That would likely have felt better in terms of rationalizing increasing world difficulty as you level, but it would have come at the expense of a more linear leveling experience, after which those zones would be largely irrelevant at endgame. We feel that the upsides of having the outdoor world continue to be relevant, and be a place where we can tell ongoing War Campaign stories and stage other content, for the months to come, are worth that increased awkwardness while leveling.

Finally, looking at the max-level experience, players are already objectively much stronger than they were at 110 in Legion. We’re starting to see random pickup groups going back and doing Mythic Antorus with ilvl ~330 level 120 characters, for achievements and transmog, and an ilvl 330 PUG kills Mythic Argus the Unmaker in about 5 minutes. Top raid guilds were doing it in ~9 minutes at 110 just a few weeks ago. There's no special scaling or legacy buff involved: People are simply stronger now than they were a month ago, when fighting the same old foes.

At max level, everything you do to upgrade your gear and the power of your Heart of Azeroth will make your experience playing the game relatively easier. We’ve seen no data whatsoever to support claims that a fresh 120 has an easier time with any content, outdoors or otherwise, than one who has improved their gear through doing dungeons and world quests and the like. A player in ilvl 330 gear is killing world quest foes more than 40% faster than someone who just hit 120 at ilvl 280, while having a much larger health pool (and, again, enemy damage output isn't scaling up at all). That relative strength will continue to increase over the weeks to come with every additional bit of gear and additional Azerite powers acquired.

Philosophically, we completely agree that progression is an essential part of an RPG experience. Rewards need to mean something, and their impact needs to be felt when playing the game. To the extent that we compromise that value in some places, it's never done lightly, and is always in service of a what we view as a greater benefit elsewhere (in this case, the ability to choose a non-linear path through zones while leveling, and having the entirety of the new world remaining relevant at 120, instead of just small pieces of it).


Oh hey look, another "Working as intended" answer.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767688861?page=1

just read that please
08/24/2018 12:58 PMPosted by Watcher
A player in ilvl 330 gear is killing world quest foes more than 40% faster than someone who just hit 120 at ilvl 280


I'm starting to wish I'd saved the quest greens I hit 120 in, because as someone doing world quests in 335 gear this appears to me to be flat out untrue, and I'd really like to be able to put some numbers behind that observation.

While I understand the need for scaling, (otherwise we'll be one-shotting world quest mobs after the first raid tier) the scaling you have at the moment feels far too punitive.
08/24/2018 12:58 PMPosted by Watcher
Philosophically, we completely agree that progression is an essential part of an RPG experience. Rewards need to mean something, and their impact needs to be felt when playing the game. To the extent that we compromise that value in some places, it's never done lightly, and is always in service of a what we view as a greater benefit elsewhere (in this case, the ability to choose a non-linear path through zones while leveling, and having the entirety of the new world remaining relevant at 120, instead of just small pieces of it).

The problem is many players do not run dungeons and raids and will never get that high level gear and will therefore always be too weak at max against everything. No outdoor content should require Mythic gear to do and right now it does. Take into consideration that we definitely see a difference by removing gear or by stopping experience gains because if we didn't then we would not do it, and all I can say is you are only seeing what you want to see because it supports the "facts" you want to push. The scaling against item level is plain wrong any way you try to dress it up. It negates the reason for getting the better gear in the first place and with the way 120 open world scaling is it totally borks anyone not in Mythic gear.
I leveled this character just like the blue post said where I skipped argus and just had generic legion quest gear starting at 110. The entire leveling experience felt smooth to me. End of story.

It's depressing and sickening how whiny people are. I don't think I've ever seen people complain so much over a practically nonexistent issue. This forum really is full of people who simply enjoy trying to bring everyone down with them.

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