Video proof of broken PVE scaling

General Discussion
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08/27/2018 06:48 AMPosted by Mehtist
08/27/2018 06:27 AMPosted by Dumbeldorf

If what you say is true then the teams should switch because the other team is dragging their feet to get it corrected


Wow. Look at this idiot still posting after claiming that he quit and saying goodbyes lol. There's the living proof that people threatening to quit aren't actually doing it. Instead, they hide and say some insane babbling on their alt characters.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761996118?page=209#post-4161
Same achievement points, same post number, similar posing style, same dumb person.


I have 6 months left on my sub, I have a right to be here just as you do, All my toons are 110 and no higher, I and Velara both don't play anymore but we still have friends here. But yes I did quit playing so I could keep posting for the cause of the people that know the game is broken.
It makes you feel like you wasted your time.... Like when a person puts there finger in the cake. It makes is sad amd angry. Thats all.
08/27/2018 06:47 AMPosted by Flutterdash
That you need BiS trinkets at all to efficiently quest at max level is unfortunate.


Some people like the world being threatening while you loathe it.
Then why make people start out strong and then get weaker over time?
Then why make people start out strong and then get weaker over time?


Uh, that doesn't happen. A power reset is at the start of the expac, then people get stronger over time.
It is on topic, What do you think happened after 7.3.5 then compounded by 8.0.1 squish? The #'s weren't correct before the squish, That's the reason everything is off.

No, it's not on topic.

That topic is concerning XP in dungeons and level scaling in general. This topic is referring to power disparities between level 110 and 120 players. Of course there are flaws with the argument presented here, which have been pointed out, but that's beside the point.

This last Q & A I heard Ion say "Everything was working as intended" but in the pre 8.0.1 Q & A I heard him say this wasn't their intent and they were looking into it but weren't sure where the problem was.

That was in regards to level scaling in general and yes, everything is working as intended in that regard. You don't have to like it, but they checked the numbers, they looked at the data. Something you and many other posters here don't have access to, and the numbers add up.

The question after that was in regards to how scaling felt as one was 'leveling up' which again, he stated was an issue that they agree with and one that they are seeking a solution to.

Also, I'll say again, I am not discussing or referring to other threads. If I wanted to talk about those threads, I'd be posting in those threads.

08/27/2018 06:27 AMPosted by Dumbeldorf
If what you say is true then the teams should switch because the other team is dragging their feet to get it corrected

What I am saying is true, they have multiple teams working on multiple areas of the game, and no, they don't need to switch. Just because you and a vocal minority (compared to the whole player base) don't like something, doesn't mean it should or will be changed.

08/27/2018 06:46 AMPosted by Nayaga
System is nothing new, but right now scaling is way over tuned. We know this, you know this.

No it's not.

This is something Ion specifically addressed in the most recent Q&A. The reason they have been silent on scaling for so long is because they wanted to make sure, so they went through the motions. They checked the data, they checked the code, they got QA testers to give them a hand to make sure everything was on the up and up, and it is. You clearly don't like that concept, and that's fine, but that doesn't change that it is working properly.
08/27/2018 07:01 AMPosted by Carhagen
No it's not.

This is something Ion specifically addressed in the most recent Q&A. The reason they have been silent on scaling for so long is because they wanted to make sure, so they went through the motions. They checked the data, they checked the code, they got QA testers to give them a hand to make sure everything was on the up and up, and it is. You clearly don't like that concept, and that's fine, but that doesn't change that it is working properly.


How and why anyone would trust a single thing he says is beyond me. The extent of their "investigation" was yep, the scaling is making things take just as long with the better gear, we're good." Their working properly is far and away different than what I and others have so clearly stated.
08/27/2018 07:01 AMPosted by Carhagen
That was in regards to level scaling in general and yes, everything is working as intended in that regard. You don't have to like it, but they checked the numbers, they looked at the data. Something you and many other posters here don't have access to, and the numbers add up.

Seems like the intended design is somewhat flawed then?

If it is more efficient for me to farm mogs in dungeons on my level 110 Paladin over my 120 Paladin because my 110 Paladin is just flat out stronger in that content. If my 110 Paladin can effectively solo content that my 120 Paladin cannot ever hope to solo until the next expansion...

It just seems flawed.

Should we keep 110 twinks? Is that intended?
08/27/2018 07:01 AMPosted by Carhagen
This is something Ion specifically addressed in the most recent Q&A. The reason they have been silent on scaling for so long is because they wanted to make sure, so they went through the motions. They checked the data, they checked the code, they got QA testers to give them a hand to make sure everything was on the up and up, and it is. You clearly don't like that concept, and that's fine, but that doesn't change that it is working properly.

Ion, is that you?

Just a wall of "working as intended" yet again.

They have total disregard for actual feedback and you've given a response par for course with the Blizzard mantra of "we know better (even when we don't)".

Having a weakminded, lazy approach to business and to development is exactly what leads to this sort of end result: a poorly executed plan that was never expressed properly, succinctly and directly because it was never sharp in the first place.

No point to it.

The fruits are in the happening.
Works fine for me, I think its a perception thing. We've been gods for so long at the end of legion that people aren't used to not steamrolling stuff. Even 2 weeks in I'm already crushing the world again and the raids not even out yet. That or people just aren't playing their class correctly.
Edit: Original title was "Video proof of broken PVE scaling". Apparently Watcher is so defensive about his terrible design that he actually edited the title.

Edit 2: It let me change it back. Let's see what happens.

A 110 with mediocre gear from last expansion is stronger in PVE than a Mythic geared 120. Under no circumstances should a 110 be stronger than a 120.

110 w/219 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/fAdcJ0tT-zc

120 w/340 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/EuOdz8JoupQ

Same race. Same class. Same spec.

..................................

When Uldir releases, I am going to invite nothing but 110s to carry me through it.


HERE IS THE PROBLEM...

Do you want to have levels for your character? Blizzard could stop this easily.. Just remove players levels or simply cap the player levels at 120 from now on. Then each expansion instead of leveling your character, you can just play through the story lines to open up each dungeon, raid and world quest.. Then all they have to do is keep increasing the gear level to progress players.

To be fair it has been this way since Vanilla.. Blue gear at level 30 against level 30 mobs.. Easy kill, same gear 8 levels higher against mobs 8 levels higher, !@#$ HARD.. The higher you level goes up the less your gear is worth. Its just now really apparent to players since Mobs now directly scale with the players. When before everyone just tossed it up to new zone, harder mobs..

So to CLARIFY, the solution is simple. From this point on we can just have gear leveling and cap the player levels.. Some may call this crazy, but honestly this is basically what everyone has been doing each expansion now anyway. We play through quest lines and gain rep to open up events and get gear that helps get us into dungeons and raids. The character level is just for %^-*s and giggles. But gear is what matters.
08/27/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Searik
Works fine for me, I think its a perception thing.
Convenient position from a single scope.

The current system doesn't work.

It was poorly thought out and only weakminded pride is preventing its rightful reversion.
08/27/2018 07:24 AMPosted by Chosen
08/27/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Searik
Works fine for me, I think its a perception thing.
Convenient position from a single scope.

The current system doesn't work.

It was poorly thought out and only weakminded pride is preventing its rightful reversion.


Their math makes sense, and them scaling at a slower pace makes sense from a design perspective. Though rough as a fresh 120, after a day or two things should be getting better as long as the real issue isn't between the chair and the keyboard. Myself and many others have noticed that things do indeed get easier over time. The system is fine.
Convenient position from a single scope.

The current system doesn't work.

It was poorly thought out and only weakminded pride is preventing its rightful reversion.


Nothing to support your claim other than "I say it so." The current system isn't perfect, but it's better than ones before it.
08/24/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Becadiaf
Well geared toons from the end of the previous expansion have always had a very easy time in the first few levels of a new expansion. The scaling isn't broken, it's how the scaling should work. The only way for this to not be an issue is to remove scaling altogether. And it's a design choice that the benefits of scaling outweigh downsides like this.

Again, nothing new. The only difference is that, since Legion, one Antorus-geared player may have started in Tiragarde Sound and steamrolled it at 110, before running into resistance in Drustvar at 117, while another Antorus-geared player may have started in Drustvar and had an easy time at 110, only to find tougher enemies at 117 in Tiragarde, depending on the order in which they each chose to tackle the zones. It admittedly can feel awkward to return to a specific dungeon or a specific area and find that the enemies there have effectively grown stronger while you were away, but that is what enables flexibility in zone choice when leveling, and makes the entire world relevant at max level, a core part of what made Legion's outdoor world experience successful.

Finally, looking at the max-level experience, players are already objectively much stronger than they were at 110 in Legion. We’re starting to see random pickup groups going back and doing Mythic Antorus with ilvl ~330 level 120 characters, for achievements and transmog, and an ilvl 330 PUG kills Mythic Argus the Unmaker in about 5 minutes. Top raid guilds were doing it in ~9 minutes at 110 just a few weeks ago. There's no special scaling or legacy buff involved: People are simply stronger now than they were a month ago, when fighting the same old foes.

Philosophically, we completely agree that progression is an essential part of an RPG experience. Rewards need to mean something, and their impact needs to be felt when playing the game. To the extent that we compromise that value in some places, it's never done lightly, and is always in service of a what we view as a greater benefit elsewhere (in this case, the ability to choose a non-linear path through zones while leveling, and having the entirety of the new world remaining relevant at 120, instead of just small pieces of it).

I'm not so much concerned with the progression of difficulty while leveling, that is essentially the sacrifice for having level scaling.

My main concern comes when lower level 110 characters LFD with low geared 120s. They, the 110, essentially outclass the fresh 120 by order of magnitude. I was helping a buddy do LFD normals by tanking; This warlock we got was pulling 12k single target dps on my details, everyone else was around 5k, a fresh 120 number. The toon I'm posting on is decked out and can only pull 10.6k.

Why is this important to bring up? Player behavior development. I've been tanking a lot the past few weeks. One thing that has been a great concern is that mythic pugs is far more curtious and understanding then any and all LFD. I'm almost certain the issue that I am seeing is caused by players overvalue their own level of play because the scaling while leveling is allowing them to play better without being better. So when they reach higher levels of play like a LFD heroic or even pug mythics, they may think that other people are the problem and be toxic. It's strange to be one shotting mythic Temple of sethraliss at 305 ilvl, coming back to it after doing mythic world tour, tanking heroic version of it at 335, wiping, and being called bad, just to give an example; This is not a type of player behavior that you want to develop. I would suggest in looking at how the scaling plays out in the development of player toxicity.
08/27/2018 07:30 AMPosted by Searik
Their math makes sense, and them scaling at a slower pace makes sense from a design perspective. Though rough as a fresh 120, after a day or two things should be getting better as long as the real issue isn't between the chair and the keyboard. Myself and many others have noticed that things do indeed get easier over time. The system is fine.

Or they could just develop a point system that utilizes the point as the point which is why every point system has basically been identical at its core since the early RPGs (because they just freaking worked).

This is a joke system and throwing a paragraph of rationalization at it, Ion style, followed with an "everything's fine" conclusion is just a way of basically giving everyone who expects a working, decent point system the middle finger.

It's a freaking joke.

This whole expansion is a mess.

D- project AT BEST.

Don't tell me this is A quality work.
Or they could just develop a point system that utilizes the point as the point which is why every point system has basically been identical at its core since the early RPGs (because they just freaking worked).


Let's not return to the days of linear progression like Warlords.

Let's not, okay?

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think more options are better than less.

This is a joke system and throwing a paragraph of rationalization at it, Ion style, followed with an "everything's fine" conclusion is just a way of basically giving everyone who expects a working, decent point system the middle finger.


Is this your first time experiencing an opposing viewpoint on the interwebs?
08/27/2018 06:59 AMPosted by Flutterdash
Then why make people start out strong and then get weaker over time?


Uh, that doesn't happen. A power reset is at the start of the expac, then people get stronger over time.


Then why did I faceroll EVERYTHING from 110-119 and then immediately get curb stomped as soon as I hit 120? I mean I was in the exact SAME gear as 119 and easily solo'd world elites but die almost IMMEDIATELY after LOOKING at one at 120.

The problem is not that the world remains irrelevant. The problem is that the world stay relevant for too long at the start of this expansion. By that I mean, the world quest mobs, unless designated for groups, should NOT be tuned to players being in 330+ gear. That's mostly 5man heroics/mythics. I should NOT be getting crushed by 2 QUEST bears as a fresh 120. I should NOT have to pull 1-2. Eat. Pull 1-2. Eat. Repeat ad nauseum until I hit that magical "gear barrier". On this toon I'm on the threshold of getting into heroics. Then eventually mythics. I shouldn't HAVE to get to mythics to outgear quest mobs.
08/27/2018 06:47 AMPosted by Flutterdash
But is it overtuned?
In my opinion, Yes!
I think you are totally missing the point

- Pre 120 the dungeons aren't meant to be challenging

- At 120 the content is supposed to be more difficult, and also to prepare you to scale into mythic+

Do you really want end game content as easy as pre-end game? That would be dreadfully boring.

And I know *for certain* you don't want leveling content to be as hard as end game content (reference the zillion posts on how making leveling more difficult is "bad").

So seriously, what is Blizzard supposed to do here?

Frankly, I had no issue getting to mythics right now, so I fail to see the overall issue here. I think how it is now is fine and I'm glad 120s have to up their game a bit.
Then why did I faceroll EVERYTHING from 110-119 and then immediately get curb stomped as soon as I hit 120? I mean I was in the exact SAME gear as 119 and easily solo'd world elites but die almost IMMEDIATELY after LOOKING at one at 120.


Because you lack reading comprehension skills or because you're bad at the game that a mere one level increasing and the subsequent maybe 5% decrease of power to your character is too much for you to handle.

I'll reiterate the point you quoted:

A power reset is at the start of the expac, then people get stronger over time.


I should NOT be getting crushed by 2 QUEST bears as a fresh 120. I should NOT have to pull 1-2. Eat. Pull 1-2. Eat.



And yet WOW classic is supposedly going to launch where this is by far the norm.

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