No Flying for War Mode

War Mode and World PvP
Hi all,

I'd just like to kick off this idea by making a few notes as to why I think it would be better to keep flying out of War Mode.

The purpose of War Mode is to play WoW with "danger", a bit like how Vanilla felt, where mobs could overwhelm you, and a player could come out of nowhere at any moment.

1. Flying trivialises Player vs Environment

The environment is not dangerous if you simply fly over it. Mobs cannot attack you. Quests do not involve any effort or challenge.
This also applies to terrain, which can be used by a clever player to outwit his opponent, and is one of the key features of the game. Flying = no interaction with terrain.

2. Flying removes player interaction

The sky is so vast, with both the horizontal and vertical axis, it is rare if ever that you encounter another player in the sky. Flying is very fast, making it very hard to move around the game with friends, for objects to load, or for any other experience to occur with the zone.

3. Flying damages World PvP

Even with the Net-O-Matic, the way that World PvP unfolds in a non-flying zone compared to a flying zone is huge. With flying, players spend most of their gameplay hovering in the sky weighing the odds of their chance of surviviability upon landing. When players do dive in for a fight, the odds are heavily skewed, and fights are over in a matter of seconds. You have all experienced this, probably in Darkshore recently.

Players with flying possess a massive edge on players without, punishing casual PvPers.

Finally, flying not being available in War Mode does not prevent players from travelling to Stormwind/Orgrimmar to disable War Mode to fly around the game.

I won't go on any further at this point, but I really believe that War Mode gameplay will severely deteriorate upon the introduction of flying, and I think that there is a strong case against permitting it in War Mode.

TL;DR
Flying will ruin War Mode
The first two points are arguments for removing flying from the game completely, not just from warmode. I think that ship has sailed.

As for the third point, I found PVP in a flying environment an interesting new aspect of the game. The point of world PVP is to interact with a world with both PCs and NPCs. All the reasons for flying in PVE apply to PVP as well: being able to fly past content you want to skip is the point of flying and not a problem, including both NPCs and PCs.

Yes, it does make stealth a bit less of an advantage for gankers, but most would say that's a good thing, not a bad thing.
A max altitude of 75 yards would help a lot to keep people always in range of your net.
I actually agree with you, at first I thought I wouldnt. The perks of having war mode on need to ensure the risk/inconvenience of not flying is worth it. I hope bliz puts some thought into this. I feel like I get around just fine especially with the 20% buff and the Leatherworking buff that prevents you from being dazed when mounted.
08/20/2018 05:51 AMPosted by Jdpp
A max altitude of 75 yards would help a lot to keep people always in range of your net.

Yea that’s a good idea too.
T I found PVP in a flying environment an interesting new aspect of the game.


I'd like you to elaborate on this.

My experience is sharply different.

World PvP in a non-flying environment is natural:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. You fight them, using the terrain to try to gain the advantage. If you win, you now "control" that area, they have to bring friends, or yield space to you, because you beat them. Same works vice versa.

With flying, World PvP is extremely unnatural and exploitable:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. They use their superior mobility to escape and fly high above you. You fly up next to them and eye each other until one queues for a dungeon and leaves.
Or in larger group fights- the group that perceives itself as being at a disadvantage will fly above everyone until they have the numbers. Nobody is on the ground doing anything for some period, until one group clumsily dive-bombs the other as the other group scatters and flying mounts up.

With flying, as I noted in my OP, players spend most of their time pouting on their flying mounts instead of doing anything.

Flying mounts result in bad gameplay, bad player interaction and bad World PvP.
Having played in vanilla when the game was the most immersive (despite the graphics being !@#$), I fully agree and support this.

I loved wPVP and flying totally, totally ruined it. Flying is the primary and overarching reason that wPVP died. (With remote queing being the secondary reason.)

Being limited to the ground immerses you in it becuase it makes everything dangerous and therefore meaningful. When you are flying, nothing is dangerous and it is all therefore meaningless to you. That field of elite mobs might as well be a field of gumdrops or a field of trees or whatever. Doesn't matter. It is of no consequence because you are flying high above it.

World quests and other non-dungeon activities are less fulfilling because of flying. They are easy. You fly to the thing, you land, kill the thing real quick, then you fly to the next thing. Maybe you get ganked occasionally but it is rare and thus of no consequence. You can do your world quests, gather herbs, or whatever, while watching TV or talking on the phone or playing online poker because it is so easy and safe. (In fact you must be doing something else at the same time or you will get bored, since moving through the world is so easy and safe.)

Flying is terrible for wPVP and was mainly put in the game to make PVE people and farmers happy. Removing flying from warmode only makes everyone happy except people who didn't play vanilla and thus think they can have their cake and eat it too.
No. I bought my net-o-matic and I plan on using it a lot.
08/20/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Cornstalker
No. I bought my net-o-matic and I plan on using it a lot.


Apparently you get it as a quest reward now. Oh well, 25 of my 500 marks is nothing, and it gave me immense amounts of fun in Darkshore :D
08/20/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Creeks
T I found PVP in a flying environment an interesting new aspect of the game.


I'd like you to elaborate on this.

My experience is sharply different.

World PvP in a non-flying environment is natural:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. You fight them, using the terrain to try to gain the advantage. If you win, you now "control" that area, they have to bring friends, or yield space to you, because you beat them. Same works vice versa.

With flying, World PvP is extremely unnatural and exploitable:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. They use their superior mobility to escape and fly high above you. You fly up next to them and eye each other until one queues for a dungeon and leaves.
Or in larger group fights- the group that perceives itself as being at a disadvantage will fly above everyone until they have the numbers. Nobody is on the ground doing anything for some period, until one group clumsily dive-bombs the other as the other group scatters and flying mounts up.

With flying, as I noted in my OP, players spend most of their time pouting on their flying mounts instead of doing anything.

Flying mounts result in bad gameplay, bad player interaction and bad World PvP.


^This

People won't land until they feel that they have an advantage. You have 2 people? Let me keep watch over you while I get 3 people!

Occasionally, someone will bait you into a "1v1" only for you to discover that there's a stealthy nearby to ensure the enemy has an advantage.

Without flying, the fights are more organic. If two players run into each other, they decide right then and there whether to engage. Unless you're a stealthy (And even they get caught too), you don't get to pick your battles on the ground, you make the best of the situation at hand.
08/20/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Creeks
...

I'd like you to elaborate on this.

My experience is sharply different.

World PvP in a non-flying environment is natural:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. You fight them, using the terrain to try to gain the advantage. If you win, you now "control" that area, they have to bring friends, or yield space to you, because you beat them. Same works vice versa.

With flying, World PvP is extremely unnatural and exploitable:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. They use their superior mobility to escape and fly high above you. You fly up next to them and eye each other until one queues for a dungeon and leaves.
Or in larger group fights- the group that perceives itself as being at a disadvantage will fly above everyone until they have the numbers. Nobody is on the ground doing anything for some period, until one group clumsily dive-bombs the other as the other group scatters and flying mounts up.

With flying, as I noted in my OP, players spend most of their time pouting on their flying mounts instead of doing anything.

Flying mounts result in bad gameplay, bad player interaction and bad World PvP.


^This

People won't land until they feel that they have an advantage. You have 2 people? Let me keep watch over you while I get 3 people!

Occasionally, someone will bait you into a "1v1" only for you to discover that there's a stealthy nearby to ensure the enemy has an advantage.

Without flying, the fights are more organic. If two players run into each other, they decide right then and there whether to engage. Unless you're a stealthy (And even they get caught too), you don't get to pick your battles on the ground, you make the best of the situation at hand.


and this is what makes world pvp so good. It really does feel more organic. i pray they consider it. PvE players already get what they want, why cant the pvp people get what they NEED? :D
Posting a world pvp vid at the request of Creeks. Thanks for having me, bro!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/303535301
bumping for concern
08/20/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Creeks
...

I'd like you to elaborate on this.

My experience is sharply different.

World PvP in a non-flying environment is natural:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. You fight them, using the terrain to try to gain the advantage. If you win, you now "control" that area, they have to bring friends, or yield space to you, because you beat them. Same works vice versa.

With flying, World PvP is extremely unnatural and exploitable:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. They use their superior mobility to escape and fly high above you. You fly up next to them and eye each other until one queues for a dungeon and leaves.
Or in larger group fights- the group that perceives itself as being at a disadvantage will fly above everyone until they have the numbers. Nobody is on the ground doing anything for some period, until one group clumsily dive-bombs the other as the other group scatters and flying mounts up.

With flying, as I noted in my OP, players spend most of their time pouting on their flying mounts instead of doing anything.

Flying mounts result in bad gameplay, bad player interaction and bad World PvP.


^This

People won't land until they feel that they have an advantage. You have 2 people? Let me keep watch over you while I get 3 people!

Occasionally, someone will bait you into a "1v1" only for you to discover that there's a stealthy nearby to ensure the enemy has an advantage.

Without flying, the fights are more organic. If two players run into each other, they decide right then and there whether to engage. Unless you're a stealthy (And even they get caught too), you don't get to pick your battles on the ground, you make the best of the situation at hand.


Seems to me the problem is really that nobody wants to PvP...
08/20/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Creeks
T I found PVP in a flying environment an interesting new aspect of the game.


I'd like you to elaborate on this.

My experience is sharply different.

World PvP in a non-flying environment is natural:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. You fight them, using the terrain to try to gain the advantage. If you win, you now "control" that area, they have to bring friends, or yield space to you, because you beat them. Same works vice versa.

With flying, World PvP is extremely unnatural and exploitable:
You stray across a hostile player in the world. They use their superior mobility to escape and fly high above you. You fly up next to them and eye each other until one queues for a dungeon and leaves.
Or in larger group fights- the group that perceives itself as being at a disadvantage will fly above everyone until they have the numbers. Nobody is on the ground doing anything for some period, until one group clumsily dive-bombs the other as the other group scatters and flying mounts up.

With flying, as I noted in my OP, players spend most of their time pouting on their flying mounts instead of doing anything.

Flying mounts result in bad gameplay, bad player interaction and bad World PvP.


I agree with this 100%, without flying right now its so interesting, horde groups need to be scouted, we keep tabs ont heir movement when we are questing, they can't just land on us out of nowhere. There is so much more interactions with the environment. One time I had to hide behind a giant column as 4 hordies ran past. I have no idea how they did not see me when the stupid health bars are clear as day.

While we are at it, why does wow have these giant health bars above enemy players that can be seen through LOS. There either needs to be far more robust LOS penalties or just remove them, I remember in early vanilla there was never such a thing, at least not by default and Warsong gulch was hella fun. I remember hiding in bushes and shooting paasserbys in the early days. But then everyone quickly learned to turn them on.
I would typically disagree with forcing flying off since I know a lot of players love leveraging their Pathfinder achievements to skip content. Not everyone wants challenge and just like to feel more powerful. That said, since War Mode is an optional game mode and Blizzard can dynamically tweak the WM bonuses as needed for incentive... I say give no flying a shot. It creates two distinct experiences. One for folks who just want to play in peace and get their quests/gathering done ASAP; and another for folks who want an immersive, challenging experience with maybe a little more meaning to the world design.
I do like this flying off warmode requirement
You thought WM didn't have enough Alliance now, just wait and see if this happens. It will be Horde vs. Horde WM.
09/13/2018 11:35 AMPosted by Mastafuji
You thought WM didn't have enough Alliance now, just wait and see if this happens. It will be Horde vs. Horde WM.


Mhm.

The problem isn't flying. The problem is faction balance and players' unwillingness to be pinatas.
I can't speak to the A:H "imbalance" in the US- I play Oceanic and the world is generally pretty well balanced.

This is the second week of Arathi, and it's such a waste of a zone. It could've been amazing WPvP.
Sadly, people go there only to fly from rare to rare trick or treating. I have no interest in going back there.
I can't help but imagine in a few short months the Kul'tiran and Zandalar zones enable flying and it turns into ghost-town as everyone flies from world quest to world quest.

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