Why Sylvanas War is completely justified

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So Silvanas destroy gilneas unprovoqued, kill genn son in front of him, kill almost all humans near lordaeron, that is genn motive, the horde has done even more genocide but they have selective amnesia, when it suit them.
08/28/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Tiosata
So Silvanas destroy gilneas unprovoqued, kill genn son in front of him, kill almost all humans near lordaeron, that is genn motive, the horde has done even more genocide but they have selective amnesia, when it suit them.


A war waged to secure a port and stronger ties between two halves of the Horde is fair reasoning to assault Gilneas, which also was an existing enemy to the Horde (despite long seclusion they opposed the old Horde in prior wars), and would have never been accepting of the undead neighbors.
An assault on the Horde leader, when during a time of peace between the factions, is a huge breach of peace and cause for war when Genn was never punished, especially in a time when Alliance and Horde were both working to stop the Legion.
you can justify all the war that you want but you can't justify genocide.

08/28/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Mahruan
which also was an existing enemy to the Horde

wrong, they were literally neutrals.
08/28/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Myrothan
08/28/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Pellex
And it's weak as all get-out. The best you can say is that it shows Sylvanas is irredeemably paraonoid.


4u. Again, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

I'm not ignoring it. But reasons for going to war are not the same as justification. She lays out her reasons in the novella, but they don't justify the war.

* * *

That said, some accusations are not quite accurate:

08/28/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Tiosata
So Silvanas destroy gilneas unprovoqued,

On Garrosh's orders, not out of a clear blue sky. (Am I misremembering, or didn't he actually start the assault without her?)

kill genn son in front of him,

FWIW, she had no intention of doing that. She wanted to kill Genn cleanly, not kill his son and make him watch.

kill almost all humans near lordaeron, that is genn motive,

Why does Genn suddenly care about the humans of Lordaeron now? He almost certainly killed more of them than she did by building his wall.
08/28/2018 02:23 AMPosted by Drug
Need to start off by stipulating not all of her actions within said war are but I see people questioning her even declaring it as if that in and of itself was somehow wrong but the Alliance very obviously provoked it, as I'll lay out here.

So here are the 3 main points that would lead to an extreme distrust of the Alliance by Sylvanas - and would also make war not only justified but an obvious course of action.

The first is obviously the attack by Genn Greymane on Sylvanas, but more specifically the complete and utter lack of response by the Alliance regarding this. If the Alliance gave a single !@#$ about peace or reconciliation with the Horde Genn Greymane would have immediately been stripped of all titles and tried as a traitor, there's really no other possible outcome that would make sense. Imagine a scenario where Lor'Themar had attempted to kill Anduin or some such thing, just because Sylvanas might be up to no good is frankly irrelevant, she is the Warchief and attacking her is essentially a declaration of war.

The second is the accepting of the Void Elves into the Alliance - once again this in and of itself almost necessitated war, the Void Elves were not only traitors and criminals of the Blood Elves and should have immediately been sent back to be tried and executed but are an ongoing threat to their very existence, they essentially brought in a weapon against the Blood Elves, and a dangerous and unquestionably evil race in general.

The third is the escalation of spies in Orgrimmar far beyond what would consitute normal information gathering, this is cold war type stuff and is obviously going to raise the possibility of a declaration.

Now those are the points that very easily justify a war, in fact it's sort of ridiculous that war wasn't declared somewhat sooner, but finally one has to consider that the actions regarding Calia show a complete and utter lack of respect for the sovereignty of the Horde - and more specifically the Forsaken - war in EK over land was going to likely be brought about by the Alliance at some point, even if it was a generation down the road. The humans hate the forsaken for their very existence. Horde questing and quotes from various Forsaken makes it very clear that pretty much every forsaken is rejected by humans right from the get go, even loved ones. The Human - Forsaken conflict might be the most polarizing out of any of them, and at this point until an alternative solution is found the only realistic way to solve their issues is for one race or the other to be wiped out completely.

Now in terms of Sylvanas actions, most of them were fine and in line with what the Alliance are doing too (massacres of archaeologists and even Zandalari exiles who aren't even lending the Horde military aid). The burning of Teldrassil is the only real questionable decision, but the Alliance is a very stubborn foe and the only realistic way to defeat them is to destroy their population centers and indeed make them give up on hope. As long as they believe in their "light" mumbo jumbo and hold out hope they can win they will not fully surrender. The previous wars proved this already, particularly the first which should have broken the back of humanity but only brought it back stronger.

Ultimately I would have preferred her to burn the tree after getting the civilians out as a symbolic gesture and simply imprisoning the civilians, but that's not really a debate I really want to get into here. I am not trying to justify Sylvanas actions but rather justify the act of war itself, something which was unquestionably brought on by the Alliances - and more specifically Anduin's - complete incompetence in foreign affairs.


Your first point is entirely of the Horde's own creation. The forsaken invaded Gilneas bringing Greymane and his actions, allowed by Anduin or not, down on their own heads. I notice no where in your post you address Sylvanas starting this feud with Greymane.

Also on that point given Greymane frees Eyir, an action Anduin would support regardless of Sylvanas being involved or another party doing it, makes it hard to overly punish Greymane for it. Also the Alliance isn't the horde, Anduin doesn't have full authority or the other races like the warchief does. In Before the Storm, the book has Anduin making a point of visiting the Gnomes to make sure they feel valued by the Alliance.

On your second point, if the Blood Elves wanted to try and punish the Void Elves, they should have done it when they banished them. Maybe the decision to banish them has come back to bit Lor'themar in the rear but it was his decision to make and he should be the one accountable for making it.

You also neglect Alleria (a major Alliance Hero) being the one to vouch for them. That gives them better standing than if it had been Umbric.

On your third point, you don't even take into account neither Sylvanas nor the forsaken's past actions. They have fully earned their distrust and Vol'jin putting her in charge is a very bad call on his part. How that is going to rank when compared with Thrall's decision to put Garrosh in charge will be seen.

Also when the incident with Calia occurred, it wasn't Anduin or the Alliance slaughtering the forsaken, it was Sylvanas and her dark rangers. The amount of spying is justified by Sylvanas' own past actions. First time the Alliance worked with the forsaken was wrathgate and the Aliiance lost Bolvar among others. Then working with them at Broken Shore cost Varian.

If anything, the cost paid by the Night Civilians show that Anduin and the rest of the Alliance leadership did not treat Sylvanas as the danger she is.

I seriously doubt things would anywhere near as messed up if Vol'jin had lived, or if Blaine was in charge or Saurfang in charge or Lor'themar, or even Ji. Blaine, Saurfang, or Ji being in charge, both Horde and Alliance would be focused on the wound and dealing with it.

If N'Zoth is indeed behind things, he literally needed Sylvanas to create this situation.
I think the thing that you're forgetting is that the Alliance's beef is not with the Horde, it's with Sylvanas. The only reason we won't have peace is because of her. Genn wouldn't attack if it weren't for Sylvanas. I guarantee you peace for generations would be an extremely likely possibility if Sylvanas died in Icecrown.
Genn's attack was entirely justified given what Horde did to his nation and what SHE did to his son.

Your other points ignore void elves were banished from the elves and the spies? You think there aren't Horde spies? Or never have been? It's not right, sure, but it's common for sides to spy on each other.
The excuse for attacking Teldrassil was pathetically weak.

Sylvanas' logic is that since you can't guarantee peace forever then peace isn't worth pursuing. It's laughably evil and counterproductive to the growth of any civilization. Her goal of "killing hope" is so over the top she's liable to rip her upper lip off if she twirls that mustache any harder.
08/28/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Araiel
The only reason we won't have peace is because of her. Genn wouldn't attack if it weren't for Sylvanas


Why not kill Genn?
Any excuse that starts off with Stormheim falls flat, because what she was doing there was for her own benefit and would have resulted in trouble for all living beings. Greymane saved everyone from her and the forsaken.

Sylvanas is by definition a villain and a raid boss waiting to happen.

Also, it is incredibly stupid that Eyir just floats away instead of smiting that undead !@#$% right then and there.
08/28/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Mahruan
08/28/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Tiosata
So Silvanas destroy gilneas unprovoqued, kill genn son in front of him, kill almost all humans near lordaeron, that is genn motive, the horde has done even more genocide but they have selective amnesia, when it suit them.


A war waged to secure a port and stronger ties between two halves of the Horde is fair reasoning to assault Gilneas, which also was an existing enemy to the Horde (despite long seclusion they opposed the old Horde in prior wars), and would have never been accepting of the undead neighbors.
An assault on the Horde leader, when during a time of peace between the factions, is a huge breach of peace and cause for war when Genn was never punished, especially in a time when Alliance and Horde were both working to stop the Legion.

Well, Old Horde =/= New Horde

Gilneas was definitely neutral at the time. The attack on them was an unprovoked attack by Garrosh and Sylvanas to grab resources/advantageous positioning for the Horde.

Which is why I think that many people view Stormheim as more of a continuation of Genn and Sylvanas' personal war with each other, rather than a declaration of war on the Horde. I don't think that particular conflict has ever stopped. It's certainly complicated by the fact that Sylvanas is now the Warchief, but given her character, I'd say she's more just using that reason for the war as a smokescreen to get what she wants.
08/28/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Myrothan
08/28/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Araiel
The only reason we won't have peace is because of her. Genn wouldn't attack if it weren't for Sylvanas


Why not kill Genn?


So you want us to kill the guy who got his son killed and his entire city plagued instead of the person who did that to him?
08/28/2018 12:02 PMPosted by Araiel
So you want us to kill the guy who got his son killed and his entire city plagued instead of the person who did that to him?


Some other guy in this thread outlined why Sylvanas attacking Gilneas made sense. If Genn is the only one who can't move on maybe he's the one who needs to be put down.
08/28/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Myrothan
08/28/2018 12:02 PMPosted by Araiel
So you want us to kill the guy who got his son killed and his entire city plagued instead of the person who did that to him?


Some other guy in this thread outlined why Sylvanas attacking Gilneas made sense. If Genn is the only one who can't move on maybe he's the one who needs to be put down.


No one was questioning whether or not the attack was justified. She had her orders, fine, whatever. She's doing her duty.

The problem is the way that she did it. She used a chemical weapon that causes people to literally bleed out of all of their orifices before finally dying a horrific death (See the New Plague section on Wowpedia) on a civilian population despite Garrosh by god Hellscream telling her not to. That is called a war crime.

And you're seriously going to tell him to move on and do nothing to bring justice to the woman who literally murdered his own child in front of his face and expressed no remorse?

Loosen up your bias a little bit and call out evil when you see it.
Blizzard deemed it so for the purposes of the story they want to tell. Nothing else needs to be said.
08/28/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Araiel
And you're seriously going to tell him to move on and do nothing to bring justice to the woman who literally murdered his own child in front of his face and expressed no remorse?


Yeah, that is what I'm saying. Everyones got grudges. There's no point wasting breathe on the word "peace" if this is how you feel about past grievances.
08/28/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Myrothan
08/28/2018 12:02 PMPosted by Araiel
So you want us to kill the guy who got his son killed and his entire city plagued instead of the person who did that to him?


Some other guy in this thread outlined why Sylvanas attacking Gilneas made sense. If Genn is the only one who can't move on maybe he's the one who needs to be put down.


Do you even believe the BS that you're spewing or is the possibility of the Horde doing something wrong just an impossibility to you? It doesn't matter what the strategic reasoning is, the morality of the situation would tell you that attacking a peaceful nation that wants nothing to do with you is not justified. There is vindication in serving justice to your oppressors though.
08/28/2018 12:31 PMPosted by Myrothan
08/28/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Araiel
And you're seriously going to tell him to move on and do nothing to bring justice to the woman who literally murdered his own child in front of his face and expressed no remorse?


Yeah, that is what I'm saying. Everyones got grudges. There's no point wasting breathe on the word "peace" if this is how you feel about past grievances.


So if Arthas apologized, stopped attacking the living, and asked for peace would the BE's / Forsaken be obligated to let "past grievances" go?
08/28/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Duneheim
So if Arthas apologized, stopped attacking the living, and asked for peace would the BE's / Forsaken be obligated to let "past grievances" go?


We'll never know. The Horde wasn't the side arguing peace would work though. Quite the opposite. I just don't think there's any point throwing around that phrase if all it takes to start another big fight or assassination attempt is a grudge and a hunch. Don't get mad your side got caught first.
08/28/2018 11:29 AMPosted by Maevara
Any excuse that starts off with Stormheim falls flat, because what she was doing there was for her own benefit and would have resulted in trouble for all living beings. Greymane saved everyone from her and the forsaken.

Sylvanas is by definition a villain and a raid boss waiting to happen.


They've already all but confirmed Sylvanas will not just end up another raid boss, sorry about that. Especially with all the promotional material using Sylvanas I suspect they intend to keep her around and important for some time to come.

And in response to the Greymane stuff there's really not much more to be said there, he was clearly in the wrong, her being evil or him having grievances IS irrevant. Much in the same way a Chinese politician couldn't have marched into Japan after WW2 and shot Hirohito without repercussions. It doesn't matter what atrocities somebody's commuted, if you attack them that's a declaration of war if they're the HoS so stop talking about peace or muzzle your damn dog.

And Genn Greymane is by far one of the most evil characters in the lore, literally dooming tens of thousands to death both in and outside his nation, he has no leg to stand on for moral highground over anybody.

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