You Lost AP: Here's the Math...

General Discussion
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You actually didn’t lose anything, despite it feeling that way. Your progress is exactly the same as it was before.
08/28/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Vorlith
Why should you be given a free bump in progress towards the next level? That's what you're asking for by scaling the amount needed but not the amount you've earned so far.

Why should people who are lazy and don't feel like working for it, and people who come later (and thus haven't given Blizzard as much money/play time metric) be allowed to catch up, if someone has been working for it since day 1?

You may say it's for a level playing field (and I agree), but there's no actual harm to the person trying to catch up if we're given, "free" progression. Instead - while it remains the same progression wise - we lose actual AP that we've gathered.
08/28/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Vorlith
08/28/2018 12:20 PMPosted by Rhokzor
Timmy is saving up for a spiffy new $1200 video card. He's been WORKING REAL HARD delivering papers for hours every day.

So far, he's saved up $600 towards his $1200 goal, or 50%..

The next day, Nvamdia announces a $200 price drop, making the card now $1000.

Hearing this news, Timmy's abusive mother comes in and takes $100 for a new pair of shoes. Timmy's mom chimes in, "Don't worry about it son, you're still halfway to your goal! Your paper route is still paying you the same so you'll get there faster now!"

"But I spent hours working for that $100 mom!" he retorts.

Outraged, Timmy decides to take his frustrations public. While he knows his future earnings will allow him to get his video card faster, he still feels utterly cheated out of his time and money.

He cries out "I earned that money! I worked for that money! I spent hours trying to get that money!"

Meanwhile, a large heavyset woman with a purple bob haircut, problem glasses, full Blizzard™ apparel, and Blizzard™ tattoos waddles up and starts screaming in his face "DoN't WoRrY aBoUt ThE nUmBeRs KiDdO, jUsT lOoK aT tHe PeRcEnTaGeS! iT's JuSt SiMpLe MaTh! ScReW yOuR tImE!"


Oh look another person making terrible analogies. People really need to stop trying to use money as an analogy to fuel their crying. AP is used for one thing. Leveling up your necklace. It can't be use anywhere else. It's sole value is in how much closer it gets you to your next level. This is absolutely nothing like real life currency.


Nice try, but you can't just write off that analogy, or the other analogies in this thread. AP and money are both token economies that function in the exact same way at their core. Feel free to look up what token economies are if you need education on the subject. That analogy is exactly what's happening with these changes. People farmed for that AP and it was "squished" as if it was never there to begin with, except players can't get that time back they spent farming for it.

But I'll indulge your side of the argument for a second and say that from a "% to next level" perspective, nobody lost anything. The time effort you spent farming to reach that percentage was not taken away from you, and on that point we agree. Similar to the analogy you quote, Timmy is still at the same amount of progress toward his goal. But the mother coming in and taking his hard-earned money is still an accurate representation of Blizzard coming in and saying "You know that 1500 AP you farmed for? Don't worry about, you don't need it anymore".

And that's not a good way of going about making your catch-up mechanics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA

LOL
08/28/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Espur
08/28/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Vorlith
Why should you be given a free bump in progress towards the next level? That's what you're asking for by scaling the amount needed but not the amount you've earned so far.

Why should people who are lazy and don't feel like working for it, and people who come later (and thus haven't given Blizzard as much money/play time metric) be allowed to catch up, if someone has been working for it since day 1?

You may say it's for a level playing field (and I agree), but there's no actual harm to the person trying to catch up if we're given, "free" progression. Instead - while it remains the same progression wise - we lose actual AP that we've gathered.


So the truth finally is revealed. You just don't like the fact that people who come along later are given ways to catch up. The selfishness is finally revealed.
So if I am understanding the mechanic correctly, I should just park a 120 toon and do something else for a month or three, then work at HOA levels? That way no effort can be viewed as wasted (regardless if it is or isn't) and I will get maximum value for effort done in the future as opposed to doing it now for a lesser value since the actual work isn't changing just it value goes up the later you do it?

Is this what this argument is supposed to convey?
08/28/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Mooriartee
Wow, the misconceptions about the math on the new system are so bad.

There are millions of math teachers crying out that all their hard work was for NOTHING.

Most people are still math illiterate.

It's so sad, really.
08/28/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Dufas
You almost have it, now think really hard about what is posted and repeat after me 'C a t c h u p M e c h a n i c'

Please do that several times and you will understand what happened


Except you're wrong because if the person "catching up" were 1 level higher, they'd have gained more benefit from this than the person who got hurt.

Example:

Guy A is at level 15 (5000 from 10000)yesterday.
Guy B is at level 16 (0 from 12000) yesterday.

Today, guy A is 3500 from 7000 (net gain of 1500)
Today, guy B is 0 from 9,240 (net gain of 2760)

This isn't a catch-up mechanic, it just arbitrarily punishes people based on how progressed they were on their current level - if you barely had any progress, jackpot. If you were 98% of the way there, you just lost thousands of Azerite. Grats.
08/28/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Eliza
So if I am understanding the mechanic correctly, I should just park a 120 toon and do something else for a month or three, then work at HOA levels? That way no effort can be viewed as wasted (regardless if it is or isn't) and I will get maximum value for effort done in the future as opposed to doing it now for a lesser value since the actual work isn't changing just it value goes up the later you do it?

Is this what this argument is supposed to convey?


Yeah for true maximum value just don't play until the last week of the expansion. That way you get the maximum amount of AP for the least amount of effort and you don't waste your time playing the game. Ez pz.
08/28/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Vorlith
So the truth finally is revealed. You just don't like the fact that people who come along later are given ways to catch up. The selfishness is finally revealed.

Did you miss the part where I said I agree that it's a good thing to have catch up mechanics? Nice straw man. That and ad hominem now. Did I miss a third logical fallacy?

My problem - as I've explained a number of times - is that we lost a total amount of AP. We retain the same amount of progression which is the only reason it's not utterly terrible, but we lost some of the AP we've already gathered.
08/28/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Vorlith

Why should you be given a free bump in progress towards the next level? That's what you're asking for by scaling the amount needed but not the amount you've earned so far.

I'm not asking for free bumps, but I did collect a certain amount of AP and when the catch-up mechanic is supposed to be for all players, it feels bad to lose an amount I already collected. Even if my % progress is the same, I should've moved closer to the goal, not stayed in the same spot because I already collected that AP.

I will still log in and do my WQ's and my quests, but it feels bad to have to consider whether I should HOLD A QUEST COMPLETION until reset to gain fuller benefit. My 800 AP war campaign quest I finished last night would've got me closer to the next level than it did last night.

You can't hold WQs, but if we were holding tokens instead of it automatically being added, you'd bet people would be considering holding them each week.

This also affects players differently depending on how much AP they've accumulated. It is not an equal mechanic. Those with 100 AP only lost 30, which is trivial to get. Those with 10000 AP lost 3000, which is minimum 10 WQs...
While everyone's progress is the same, those closer to level lost more of their previously invested time.

It *FEELS* bad.
With Legion AP tokens, you were given a token and told explicitly how much it was worth, when they increased AK the old tokens were still worth the same amount when they were received. In this case, our old tokens are automatically added to our current total and then devalued every week... New tokens are worth exactly the same as before, but then they too start devaluing.
>>> The only time it doesn't feel as bad is when you're as close to "0" on the current level as you can be.

I'm not asking for free levels or anything, but when I'm making progress to the next level, *part* of my progress *was* removed in this catch-up mechanic. In the case of 5000/10000 AP, going down to 3500/7000 puts my at 3500 until the next level instead of the original 5000, but I'm not 2000 away from the next level as I would expect to be...
Now that we've had a reset and a squish, players now know what to expect and th cries will die down........

But it doesn't change that it *feels* bad.
08/28/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Lunáfreya
You lost all the effort required to get that 1,500 AP, but from here on out you will acquire levels faster than before. Overall I would say it's a bad thing to lose previous progress, but a good thing to make future progress easier. But to settle the debate, you did actually lose AP with this change.


/facepalm

This guy...don't be like this guy.
08/28/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Eliza
So if I am understanding the mechanic correctly, I should just park a 120 toon and do something else for a month or three, then work at HOA levels? That way no effort can be viewed as wasted (regardless if it is or isn't) and I will get maximum value for effort done in the future as opposed to doing it now for a lesser value since the actual work isn't changing just it value goes up the later you do it?

Is this what this argument is supposed to convey?


Pretty much except that no matter how the arguement goes, it means you should park yourself and come back later because in the end. You'll still come back and reach levels where everyone else is. Because screw getting to 15,000. That'll take forever! There isn't enough AP in a week with WQs, expeditions, missions to cap that. I mean. Truthfully it is better to always do them anyways because you'll be at a better percentage because grinders are always rewarded and closer and higher level from the rest who don't.
08/28/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Espur
Why should people who are lazy and don't feel like working for it, and people who come later (and thus haven't given Blizzard as much money/play time metric) be allowed to catch up, if someone has been working for it since day 1?


You realize, if you continue as before, they'll never catch up right? If you continue doing your daily AP grind, it literally has no affect on you. When you get to much high levels, and it's only like 1% on your bar difference, you'll still be ahead as much as before.

The only thing it encourages if for people to horde the WQ and caches for Tuesday, when the bump/nerf happens again. It is identical to Legion, if you anticipated your artifact knowledge jumps, you could play the system there as well. You could save 3 days worth of caches for the knowledge level to go up, and any WQ you could complete prior to. So as it's been pointed out, it literally is the same thing as legion.

08/28/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Espur
You may say it's for a level playing field (and I agree), but there's no actual harm to the person trying to catch up if we're given, "free" progression. Instead - while it remains the same progression wise - we lose actual AP that we've gathered.


It is as you said, to level the playing field. Not everyone has all the time in the world to play the game. You'll still have the advantage, as you'll be able to farm the AP no differently then before and will continue to quickly out level/preform the average player. You lose literal AP, but you are still ahead by the same amount and will continue as long as your playing habits don't change.

You being handed a free level, throws a lot more out of wack then it does the way it's currently set up, and it literally is parallel to the Legion system, but nerfs rather then buffs. There's a blue post on another one of these threads that explains this. So the only way you should be complaining, is if you don't like the Legion system as well.
08/28/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Vorlith
08/28/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Eliza
So if I am understanding the mechanic correctly, I should just park a 120 toon and do something else for a month or three, then work at HOA levels? That way no effort can be viewed as wasted (regardless if it is or isn't) and I will get maximum value for effort done in the future as opposed to doing it now for a lesser value since the actual work isn't changing just it value goes up the later you do it?

Is this what this argument is supposed to convey?


Yeah for true maximum value just don't play until the last week of the expansion. That way you get the maximum amount of AP for the least amount of effort and you don't waste your time playing the game. Ez pz.


That is essentially correct if a player's only concern is how efficiently their time is spent towards progression. However, once that week is over, the progress is obsolete anyway because the new expansion raises the level cap!
even after the faulty math was debunked, i feel like we're in for 10 more pages of people arguing a false narrative.
08/28/2018 12:20 PMPosted by Rhokzor
Timmy is saving up for a spiffy new $1200 video card. He's been WORKING REAL HARD delivering papers for hours every day.

So far, he's saved up $600 towards his $1200 goal, or 50%..

The next day, Nvamdia announces a $200 price drop, making the card now $1000.

Hearing this news, Timmy's abusive mother comes in and takes $100 for a new pair of shoes. Timmy's mom chimes in, "Don't worry about it son, you're still halfway to your goal! Your paper route is still paying you the same so you'll get there faster now!"

"But I spent hours working for that $100 mom!" he retorts.

Outraged, Timmy decides to take his frustrations public. While he knows his future earnings will allow him to get his video card faster, he still feels utterly cheated out of his time and money.

He cries out "I earned that money! I worked for that money! I spent hours trying to get that money!"

Meanwhile, a large heavyset woman with a purple bob haircut, problem glasses, full Blizzard™ apparel, and Blizzard™ tattoos waddles up and starts screaming in his face "DoN't WoRrY aBoUt ThE nUmBeRs KiDdO, jUsT lOoK aT tHe PeRcEnTaGeS! iT's JuSt SiMpLe MaTh! ScReW yOuR tImE!"


except you analogy is COMPLETLY wrong. it was not 1 company reducing the price of 1 item.

it was ALL money everywhere that was dropped. essentially every dollar is worth 20% less and all prices dropped 20%. the numbers got smaller but no work/value was lost.

they shrank the numbers is all they did.
Technically the OP is correct, they lost AP. But it also doesn't really matter, because your next level is closer than it would have been before. But it also really wouldn't have mattered if they let you keep that AP either.

Scaling it down seems to serve little purpose other than to piss some people off. Maybe a technical limitation, or lack of foresight.
08/28/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Espur
08/28/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Vorlith
So the truth finally is revealed. You just don't like the fact that people who come along later are given ways to catch up. The selfishness is finally revealed.

Did you miss the part where I said I agree that it's a good thing to have catch up mechanics?


"Why should people who are lazy and don't feel like working for it, and people who come later (and thus haven't given Blizzard as much money/play time metric) be allowed to catch up, if someone has been working for it since day 1?" - You 2018
08/28/2018 12:56 PMPosted by Dapper
or lack of foresight.


they give the community too much credit. because the amount needed scaled down, what was accumulated was proportionally scaled down. this makes sense, but because the number itself shrank, people are having a fit, which is depressing.

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