The Horde needs to be Dismantled

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08/08/2018 12:59 PMPosted by Lìran
I support peace between the factions, but every time I hear something about dismantling the horde, I have this urge to to join the Dark Lady in a blightfest.

Seriously, you want to dismantle us? Sylvanas was right, peace could never last with all the baggage between the factions, better to nip them in the bud early.

I disagreed with Teldrassil's burning. Even playing a death knight I don't like to kill civilians. I did however understand her reasoning.

Frankly I hope both factions are dealt extreme blows in 8.1 and Azshara comes and wrecks us for a while.


You realize the calls to dismantle the horde only comes after horde atrocities? The tree being the latest 1.

It’s like saying “I just murdered your whole family, but I don’t understand why you want to put me in prison?”
08/08/2018 02:36 PMPosted by Heirophant
You realize the calls to dismantle the horde only comes after horde atrocities? The tree being the latest 1.

It’s like saying “I just murdered your whole family, but I don’t understand why you want to put me in prison?”


You realize that calls to dismantle a playable faction populated by half the people who play the game are never going to come across well, right? It's not as though the players are responsible for "Horde atrocities."
08/07/2018 04:30 PMPosted by Arindehla
The Alliance needs to act to make sure the Horde NEVER reaches the level of threat it once did.

No more Warchiefs. Occupying Horde land and bringing down their military to a lower level.

I want to see this conflict resolved in a way that doesn't copy what happened to Garrosh.

Thralls Horde has sadly evolved into Orcish Horde territory or in real world terms, the Axis Powers.

As the old evil Horde needed to fall apart to make way for Thralls Horde, so does the current Horde need to end to create a better future for life on Azeroth.

We all know that the acts against honor the current Horde has done can not be blamed on just one person. Getting rid of Sylvanas isn't going to make everything fine and dandy.

When the Allies went into Germany, they knew they also had to remove the institution that raised up that man. Him dying was nice, but far more was needed to end the war and make sure that country and its allies didn't start another world war.

Their could still be Horde vs Alliance themes in the next expansion even if the current form of the Horde falls apart.

Even if the Horde disbands at the end of BoA the playerbase that made up the Horde could still have a role to play.

Sylvanas could survive but lose a lot of the power she had, but still using a splinter group to cause hurt to the Alliance. Or if she died in BoA, you could still have surviving followers of her make trouble for the Alliance. Then of course their could still be parties that never liked her but don't want to surrender to the alliance.

Then the honorable elements of the Horde could be former Horde willing to work with the Alliance for a better future.

Next expansion could also include other threats from Naga, Old Gods, etc.


Glad to see that you feel only Alliance are allowed to make such threads and threats. Unless you have a problem with such directed at the Alliance?

Hmm.
08/07/2018 04:30 PMPosted by Arindehla
The Alliance needs to act to make sure the Horde NEVER reaches the level of threat it once did.

No more Warchiefs. Occupying Horde land and bringing down their military to a lower level.

I want to see this conflict resolved in a way that doesn't copy what happened to Garrosh.


I don't. Game issues aside, Blizzard's general refusal to let things like population or logistics have the slightest impact on their story-telling (which they mostly managed to avoid in the two novellas, something I am very appreciative about) is one of the things that irks me most in their story-telling. And that bad writing is something which is an absolute necessity to pull off what you're talking about. The Alliance doesn't begin to have the means to project enough power to keep the Horde races disarmed and disassociated. They couldn't have done it even when they actually had a significant local population presence in the form of the night elves based out of Teldrassil and they've lost a major portion of that in the war's opening.

Then the honorable elements of the Horde could be former Horde willing to work with the Alliance for a better future.


I.e. they need to become Alliance-lite: All the rightousness, Light-worship, and meat-shieldy elements but twice as primitive and clearly the paler imitation. No thanks.

08/07/2018 06:25 PMPosted by Merìngue

The thing is, I would actually not be surprised is something like this went down. There was a comment in an interview at Blizzcon that said it was time to end the faction conflict. Population balance has become a problem for Blizzard. If there is no longer a barrier between who you can group/raid with it solves most of the population balance. Half of their player base regularly feeling shafted is really not a model that can remain viable much longer. There are only so many times you can rehash the war without a real end. And removing the conflict would open a lot of story potential. So, breaking the faction wall would probably be a good idea.


I would be very surprised if it went down. Look at the trouble they had just getting additional slots for the base character backpack (you still can't unequip or replace it) That's because of the way character-creation was coded, changes there required rebuilding a lot of other things. The Horde/Alliance divide is baked into a LOT of other material. Breaking the faction wall the way you envision would entail completely rebuilding massive chunks of the game code. It's something that could happen in a WoW 2.0, but even if Blizzard were insane enough to propose that, bean-counters at Activision would certainly note how fracturing the subscription base like that typically ruins the profits to be had from either game.

08/08/2018 01:16 AMPosted by Arindehla
08/08/2018 12:57 AMPosted by Syriyna
I think, regardless of how Horde players have repond to Sylvanas, that if Blizzard ended BfA with the Horde being dismantled and players being forced to be Alliance lackeys, that very few Horde players would consider it acceptable.

It would certainly be a bold narrative moved but it might cost Blizzard most of the Horde playerbase. I certainly would stop playing then and there, no ifs or buts.


Who says you have to be alliance lackeys if the horde disbands?

Various quests could give you a choice in what path your character takes.

You could deal in quests that are more towards the neutral side. Your not working with alliance but your not fighting them either.


You mean like in Legion where that entailed working for:
  • Tyrande and Malfurion (Alliance racial leaders)

  • Maeiv (sub-racial leader for an Alliance race)
  • Illidan (brother and former companion to Alliance racial leaders)
  • Velen (Alliance racial leader)
  • and Turalyon/Alleria (sub-racial leaders for the Alliance and Supreme Commander of Alliance Expeditions)?


Having the horde disband could give more freedom then for those who enjoy being the baddies or those who prefer a more honorable path.


Why don't we have the Horde win, the Alliance dismantled, and you can enjoy all that lovely freedom you're going on about? Why aren't you suggesting that instead since you so plainly like the idea of the content it provides?

I have a very simple solution to these sort of suggestions made for the other side's content/story. I'll support them, but only if they happen to the suggester's side instead.

08/08/2018 09:17 AMPosted by Arlifrex
08/08/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Zoko
The alliance needs to be dismantle too.


Why?


Because you're the people pushing for that kind of structure for the resolution in the first place. If you want it, you should be the ones it happens to.
Not even remotely close to RP, but:

Would like to point out that viewpoints like the OP are exactly why the Horde continues to exist. They are, individually, some of the most vulnerable races on Azeroth: every single one of them have origin stories that begin with someone nearly succeeding in wiping them out.

The 'survival against a world that hates them' is literally written on the tin.
08/08/2018 08:09 PMPosted by Kabbie
Not even remotely close to RP, but:

Would like to point out that viewpoints like the OP are exactly why the Horde continues to exist. They are, individually, some of the most vulnerable races on Azeroth: every single one of them have origin stories that begin with someone nearly succeeding in wiping them out.

The 'survival against a world that hates them' is literally written on the tin.

Took this screenshot for a different thread, but it still applies.

https://i.imgur.com/bmH6gYl.png
The Horde exists because of the Alliance's own weakness and sympathy towards others. If they had done what needed to be done after the Orcs lost the war, there would be no Horde, but instead of putting them to the sword like they should've, the Alliance put them in camps...

So, what we need to do is as follows:

1. Deport the Orcs back to their own planet. Outland still has some habitable land, heck, Nagrand looks pretty habitable still. I'd say it's even better to settle than Durotar...

2. Put down all of the Forsaken, undead are an abomination and they should just stay dead. They are not even the same person they were when they were alive, they are twisted, sick and evil, lacking in empathy. Put them to the sword and let them finally find rest.

3. Tauren leave alone.

4. Trolls are an evil race that has been causing trouble for thousands of years, so genociding them is the only viable option.
08/08/2018 02:36 PMPosted by Heirophant
You realize the calls to dismantle the horde only comes after horde atrocities? The tree being the latest 1.

It’s like saying “I just murdered your whole family, but I don’t understand why you want to put me in prison?”

You realize that you're proposing to punish the players (real human beings and paying customers) for decisions made by the writers?
08/08/2018 02:36 PMPosted by Heirophant
08/08/2018 12:59 PMPosted by Lìran
I support peace between the factions, but every time I hear something about dismantling the horde, I have this urge to to join the Dark Lady in a blightfest.

Seriously, you want to dismantle us? Sylvanas was right, peace could never last with all the baggage between the factions, better to nip them in the bud early.

I disagreed with Teldrassil's burning. Even playing a death knight I don't like to kill civilians. I did however understand her reasoning.

Frankly I hope both factions are dealt extreme blows in 8.1 and Azshara comes and wrecks us for a while.


You realize the calls to dismantle the horde only comes after horde atrocities? The tree being the latest 1.

It’s like saying “I just murdered your whole family, but I don’t understand why you want to put me in prison?”


Oh my issue isn't the reasoning. As I said, Teldrassil was a bad move. My issue arrives from the presumption that the alliance has any power to dismantle the horde. As if they are our keepers.

I would always prefer peace, but given the choice between rolling over for the alliance and burning every alliance city to the ground.....well lets just say you should stock up on fire extinguishers.
08/08/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Malosa
4. Trolls are an evil race that has been causing trouble for thousands of years, so genociding them is the only viable option.


Look into Zappyboi's eyes and say that again. I dare you.
08/08/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Malosa
The Horde exists because of the Alliance's own weakness and sympathy towards others. If they had done what needed to be done after the Orcs lost the war, there would be no Horde, but instead of putting them to the sword like they should've, the Alliance put them in camps...


Except for that "thanks for helping us take down a demon general who was about to drain a world tree" part.

Ideally, the orcs and trolls were to move to Kalimdor, far, far away from any humans, a solution that both the humans and orcs were happy with. (Funny because that's what Sylvanas was hoping for.) Then two problems cropped up: the night elves joined the Alliance, the Forsaken joined the Horde.
08/08/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Malosa
The Horde exists because of the Alliance's own weakness and sympathy towards others. If they had done what needed to be done after the Orcs lost the war, there would be no Horde, but instead of putting them to the sword like they should've, the Alliance put them in camps...

So, what we need to do is as follows:

1. Deport the Orcs back to their own planet. Outland still has some habitable land, heck, Nagrand looks pretty habitable still. I'd say it's even better to settle than Durotar...

2. Put down all of the Forsaken, undead are an abomination and they should just stay dead. They are not even the same person they were when they were alive, they are twisted, sick and evil, lacking in empathy. Put them to the sword and let them finally find rest.

3. Tauren leave alone.

4. Trolls are an evil race that has been causing trouble for thousands of years, so genociding them is the only viable option.


See, this is exactly the way we need more prominent Alliance NPCs to speak and act.
08/08/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Malosa
4. Trolls are an evil race that has been causing trouble for thousands of years, so genociding them is the only viable option.


Ya good luck wit dat mon
08/08/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Malosa


4. Trolls are an evil race that has been causing trouble for thousands of years, so genociding them is the only viable option.


If it weren't for the trolls, you'd be speaking Bug right now.
08/07/2018 04:30 PMPosted by Arindehla
The Alliance needs to act to make sure the Horde NEVER reaches the level of threat it once did.
Well they're not powerful enough to do that so...*shrug*

Only time the Alliance really beats the Horde is when half of the Horde is fighting with them for some reason.

Unless the Horde turns against itself again, doing something about the Horde is not really an option for them.
08/08/2018 01:16 AMPosted by Arindehla
08/08/2018 12:57 AMPosted by Syriyna
I think, regardless of how Horde players have repond to Sylvanas, that if Blizzard ended BfA with the Horde being dismantled and players being forced to be Alliance lackeys, that very few Horde players would consider it acceptable.

It would certainly be a bold narrative moved but it might cost Blizzard most of the Horde playerbase. I certainly would stop playing then and there, no ifs or buts.


Who says you have to be alliance lackeys if the horde disbands?

Various quests could give you a choice in what path your character takes.

You could deal in quests that are more towards the neutral side. Your not working with alliance but your not fighting them either.

Then their are quests for those that want to work with the Alliance towards a common goal.

Finally for those who hate the alliance and still want to work against it, you can participate in quests that deal in joining a splinter group of ex-horde out for revenge against the Alliance.

Sure be better then your character forced to serve a genocidal maniac if you want to do the horde quests.

Having the horde disband could give more freedom then for those who enjoy being the baddies or those who prefer a more honorable path.


They are never going to spend the resources to develop four completely different quest lines for only one, now non-existent, faction. The screams of Horde bias would be defining.

Basically what we would get would be what we had in Legion but without any pretence that we aren't just mercenaries working for the Alliance. As it is most of neutral content is already horde players following Alliance characters who are moonlighting as neutral characters.

It also means a miserable end to an expansion where the faction we are supposed to be fighting for is completely undone. That is such a rubbish end I would lose any interest. Your ending is basically 'your faction loses completely but don't worry because the Alliance are great heroes and they will give you mercy'.
08/08/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Malosa
The Horde exists because of the Alliance's own weakness and sympathy towards others. If they had done what needed to be done after the Orcs lost the war, there would be no Horde, but instead of putting them to the sword like they should've, the Alliance put them in camps...

So, what we need to do is as follows:

1. Deport the Orcs back to their own planet. Outland still has some habitable land, heck, Nagrand looks pretty habitable still. I'd say it's even better to settle than Durotar...

2. Put down all of the Forsaken, undead are an abomination and they should just stay dead. They are not even the same person they were when they were alive, they are twisted, sick and evil, lacking in empathy. Put them to the sword and let them finally find rest.

3. Tauren leave alone.

4. Trolls are an evil race that has been causing trouble for thousands of years, so genociding them is the only viable option.


Take it easy edgelord.
08/08/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Malosa
The Horde exists because of the Alliance's own weakness and sympathy towards others. If they had done what needed to be done after the Orcs lost the war, there would be no Horde, but instead of putting them to the sword like they should've, the Alliance put them in camps...

World's End Tavern is thataway: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/1011637/
I don't know why anyone would want to dismantle the Horde; it would just lead to a revanchist storyline where some character that loved the idea of the Horde (I'd vote Zappyboi because irony) whips up the former Horde races into a frenzy, names themselves Warchief, then nukes a major Alliance city in vengeance.

Unless Blizzard was willing to change literally everything about how they approach quest design, overarching storylines, and even basic marketing for the game; this kind of 'Re-forming the Horde' story would be inevitable.
Hot take.

Sylvanas isn’t going to be sticking around in a Horde leadership role. Blaine is going to take over. He and Anduin will create a lasting peace. Moving forward, a hard separation of the factions will largely be a thing of the past.

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