Horde leaders are guilty by association

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Exile isn't always a permanent solution: had Umbric and his followers given up practicing with the Void, they would have been accepted back into SM. That being said, it's one thing to be an expatriate: people pick up sticks and leave their home countries all the time for various reasons, including political protest.

However, it's another thing entirely to provide intelligence or services that would be harmful to your home country to a hostile nation, or to start shooting at your own countrymen or their allies under the banner of a hostile nation. That's what got people like Benedict Arnold or John Walker Lindh labeled as traitors.

Once the void elves started shooting at the Horde, they were labeled as such. They may not have been shooting at their fellow blood elves (yet), but any actions taken against the Horde are actions taken against Silvermoon.
Where was the Blood Elves during that battle it does not make much sense for them not to attack the Alliance rear or from the side after the Alliance lines were broken. That being said Kabbie right the moment they start to plan to make Silvermoon return to the Alliance and attack Silvermoon Allies they were traitors.
08/10/2018 11:21 PMPosted by Gerttie
08/10/2018 04:31 PMPosted by Ariël
...

True. Umbric et al weren't "traitors" in the technnical sense of the word when they got exiled; they were just a big threat against the public safety and future of their nation. They got kicked thanks to their own choice to refuse to hear the orders of their boss, so they aren't "poor victims" either.

They were petty criminals with the potential to upgrade to terrorists, no more and no less. Lor'themar, Rommath and Halduron have the duty to guarantee the safety of ALL elves living on Quel'thalas; it's NOT their job to let people put at risk the aforementioned safety just because people rather act like brats than like adults proper.

Btw, the moment they decided it was rad to join Alleria and follow into her "Quel'thalas MUST roll Alliance or else!!" It was the moment they indeed became traitors (cause guess what, that political change by force IS the dictionary deffinition of the word "treason"). And pardon me, but the current Belf head of state calling them traitors after he testifies their efforts at attacking the Horde is just him calling them by their proper name, period.


Actually, you’re wrong here. The moment they joined Alleria, they were completely abandoned and written off by the Blood Elves and Lor’themar. The Blood Elves didn’t recognize them as a part of Quel’thalas and so Umbric and co. were unclaimed and FREE AGENTS. Due to this single reason, the Ren’dorei were NOT traitors considering treason implies an active association with the group being betrayed. Courtesy of Lor’themar, that kind of relationship didn’t exist here.

Tbh, I don’t really expect you it to see it that way as a Lor’themar fan girl. He’s still a delusional Sylvanas shill who enables genocide.


Were they? Cause the exile was conducted entirely by their own choice -again, Velves are no martyrs that got unfairly banishef from their homeland; they were members of society with military rank and knowledge that were given the choice to stop a dangerous behaviour or leave until further notice.

IF according to you they "lost" their citizenship and in consequence rhey can't be traitors, then pray tell how can they reclaim any right to the territory in the first place? Either they wash their hands on Quel'thalas and as Alliance cituzens become conqueters and usurpers OR they maintain their "in exile but still a citizen" status quo (which I suspect is what Lor'themar considered them) and become traitors by assiciation with a political group intetested in removing the current Belf government by force, period.

Hopefully you'll free yourself from your evident Alliance and Alleria fanwank and white knighting to understand what I'm saying...
As far as void elves go, in so much lore that they do have, they were trying to use the Void as another way to defend Quel'Thalas and Silvermoon itself.

The other Blood Elves didnt like this, given the connotations of the Void (which honestly is reasonable.) And were told to stop their research or be exiled.

And so they were exiled from Quel'Thalas. At the moment they were exiled, they are no longer considered citizens of Quel'Thalas, in any shape or form.

This means their homeland turned their back on them, it is a bit of a stretch to call the people who you turned your back on (regardless of the reason.) Traitors after the fact.
The Void Elves start delving into heavy Void magic.

Lor'themar tells them to cut that crap out -- that it's an extreme danger to Blood Elf society (later proven absolutely correct by Alleria summoning minions of the Void to attack the Sunwell by just being near it).

The Void Elves do not heed the warnings and continue their experiments in earnest.

Lor'themar banishes them for the safety of his city and his people.

It's pretty straight-forward. Let's not even pretend the Void Elves were at all in the right here.
08/09/2018 09:12 AMPosted by Salvamar
He sells roaches for fifty silver each in a sewer.
Didn't he die in Before the Storm?

Edit:
08/11/2018 11:04 AMPosted by Porschea
Lor'themar banishes them for the safety of his city and his people.

It's pretty straight-forward. Let's not even pretend the Void Elves were at all in the right here.
Is it? Because we still have warlocks and shadow priests, both of whom are considered a danger by the magics they study, and Void Elves wouldn't have become, well... Void Elves if they weren't forced to hide in Telogrus in their Exile.

The reasonable decision would have been, "Perhaps what you know can be of use- but not in Quel'thalas. The danger to the Sunwell is too great, take your teachings to the Undercity where they embrace void magic."
Alternatively,
"You guys have to stay in the Ghostlands. Nowhere north of that unless on special request."

They never claimed outright hostility or anti-establishment sentiment like the High Elves (who exiled themselves, AFAIK).

It's just a hamfisted way to get belf/helf Hot Topic knock-offs into the Alliance.
Except when you consider that High Elves are also considered exiles from Quel'Thalas. As far as I know, there are no battle scenes between High Elves and Blood Elves; there is an extremely fine line between being exiled (because there is always the possibility of return) and treason.

Once you start opening fire on your own people, it's treason.
I just find the whole situation around the Void Elves to amazingly and hilariously hypocritical on the part of the belf leadership.

"Lor'themar, we've complied the reports on potential seditious factors within Silvermoon."

"Let's hear it, then."

"Okay, there's the warlocks that worship and draw power from the Burning Legion, which, as you'll recall, set the Scourge on us."

"They're fine."

"Then there's the Death Knights, actual members of the Scourge."

"They're fine."

"There's a bunch of gibbering insane self-admitted Old God cultists that use the Void, talk about how their madness empowers them, and spend all their time talking to a knife."

"Fine."

"Then there are the disciples of Illypants who recently rejoined, and whom we really have no reason at all to trust."

"Why you harshin' on them, bro? Their ink is boss."

"Okay. And, lastly, there's a bunch of nerds studying the Void academically."

" *spits drink* WHAT? HOW DARE THEY? This will not stand! Exile, EXILE, EXILE!"
08/11/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Mylinea
As far as void elves go, in so much lore that they do have, they were trying to use the Void as another way to defend Quel'Thalas and Silvermoon itself.

The other Blood Elves didnt like this, given the connotations of the Void (which honestly is reasonable.) And were told to stop their research or be exiled.

And so they were exiled from Quel'Thalas. At the moment they were exiled, they are no longer considered citizens of Quel'Thalas, in any shape or form.

This means their homeland turned their back on them, it is a bit of a stretch to call the people who you turned your back on (regardless of the reason.) Traitors after the fact.


How can their homeland "turn its back on them" when they were the individuals actually putting it at risk? As Magisters -you know, active members of the military- it was THEIR RESPONSABILITY to guarantee the safety of the civilians and the overall population in Quel'thalas; they don't get a pass at acting like brats cause they believe they're on the right. It was THEIR RESPONSABILITY to provide experimental data that met the safety regulations imposed by the Grand Magister; but instead of doing this they rather rebelled to his orders cause "lul, close minded Boss doesn't know better".

No people, the ones that gave their back first in this scenario were Umbric et al, cause for them their "rad investigation">>>>>>>public safety of Quel'thalas, period.
We're only guilty if we lose.
Fine by me. We lok'tar or we ogar, together.
Given that Void Elves are a BS cop out anyway, why are we arguing about this?
08/11/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Ariël
08/11/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Mylinea
As far as void elves go, in so much lore that they do have, they were trying to use the Void as another way to defend Quel'Thalas and Silvermoon itself.

The other Blood Elves didnt like this, given the connotations of the Void (which honestly is reasonable.) And were told to stop their research or be exiled.

And so they were exiled from Quel'Thalas. At the moment they were exiled, they are no longer considered citizens of Quel'Thalas, in any shape or form.

This means their homeland turned their back on them, it is a bit of a stretch to call the people who you turned your back on (regardless of the reason.) Traitors after the fact.


How can their homeland "turn its back on them" when they were the individuals actually putting it at risk? As Magisters -you know, active members of the military- it was THEIR RESPONSABILITY to guarantee the safety of the civilians and the overall population in Quel'thalas; they don't get a pass at acting like brats cause they believe they're on the right. It was THEIR RESPONSABILITY to provide experimental data that met the safety regulations imposed by the Grand Magister; but instead of doing this they rather rebelled to his orders cause "lul, close minded Boss doesn't know better".

No people, the ones that gave their back first in this scenario were Umbric et al, cause for them their "rad investigation">>>>>>>public safety of Quel'thalas, period.


I suggest reading the post above yours..

Shadow Addled priests..
Scourge aligned deathknights
Fel harnessing warlocks..
All fine

People researching the void for possible benefits... oh noooes!
Those don't risk blowing up the Sunwell.
08/11/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Mylinea
08/11/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Ariël
...

How can their homeland "turn its back on them" when they were the individuals actually putting it at risk? As Magisters -you know, active members of the military- it was THEIR RESPONSABILITY to guarantee the safety of the civilians and the overall population in Quel'thalas; they don't get a pass at acting like brats cause they believe they're on the right. It was THEIR RESPONSABILITY to provide experimental data that met the safety regulations imposed by the Grand Magister; but instead of doing this they rather rebelled to his orders cause "lul, close minded Boss doesn't know better".

No people, the ones that gave their back first in this scenario were Umbric et al, cause for them their "rad investigation">>>>>>>public safety of Quel'thalas, period.


I suggest reading the post above yours..

Shadow Addled priests..
Scourge aligned deathknights
Fel harnessing warlocks..
All fine

People researching the void for possible benefits... oh noooes!


And I suggest you people don't mix up gameplay and lore.

Quote source for SPriest, Warlocks, Death Knights and Demon Hunter NPCs that have been endorsed lorewise by the Belf government as "citizens and/or military support with 0 issues involved".

Cause last time I saw the Belf NPC Death Knights were associated lorewise with either the Ebon Blade or the Horde UNDER THE FORSAKEN GOVERNMENT. Last time I saw Demon Hunters were EXTRICTLY asociated with the Illidari (yup, you don't see Kayn taking orders from Lor'themar). Last time I saw every priest NPC was aknowledged as a "healer" (both in-game and in side material like "Blood of the Highborne). And ofc, the warlocks only portray themselves as such WHEN IT'S NIGHTIME IN SILVERMOON.Heck, the most relevant Belf Warlock A.K.A. Shinfel is affiliated first and foremost with the Council of the Black Harvest, lul.

Soooo... nope. No DK/DH/Spriest/Lock "Belf hero" in the current canon lore that gets portrayed as an asset of Quel'thalas, period.

I swear, the lenghts people go to justify a victim complex.
08/09/2018 09:12 AMPosted by Salvamar
08/09/2018 09:00 AMPosted by Yagarr
...
Basically the equivalent of a loyal German civilian during WW2.
He sells roaches for fifty silver each in a sewer.


I laughed way too hard at this.
Didn't he die in Before the Storm?


He's still alive in-game after BfL IIRC.
08/11/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Kabbie
Once you start opening fire on your own people, it's treason.


I think this is the simplest way to distill the debate to its essence. The Void Elves are allied with a group that the government of Quel'thalas is currently at war with; therefore, they are traitors.

Note that they are considered traitors in the eyes of Silvermoon (or of Lor'themar at the very least). There's no rule that says the Void Elves have to consider themselves traitors for it to be true. In fact, I seriously doubt Void Elves consider themselves as traitors, but the government to which they used to belong does.
08/11/2018 03:17 PMPosted by Jellex
08/11/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Kabbie
Once you start opening fire on your own people, it's treason.


I think this is the simplest way to distill the debate to its essence. The Void Elves are allied with a group that the government of Quel'thalas is currently at war with; therefore, they are traitors.

Note that they are considered traitors in the eyes of Silvermoon (or of Lor'themar at the very least). There's no rule that says the Void Elves have to consider themselves traitors for it to be true. In fact, I seriously doubt Void Elves consider themselves as traitors, but the government to which they used to belong does.


Except they didn’t fire on THEIR OWN PEOPLE. Lor’themar made sure of that.

I like that they added the line because it supports how weak and delusional of a leader Lor’themar truly is.

I don’t think it cast him in a very good light accusing the people he left to rot to death outside of the sunwell’s influence and power.
08/11/2018 03:23 PMPosted by Gerttie
I don’t think it cast him in a very good light accusing the people he left to rot to death outside of the sunwell’s influence and power.


Who'd he leave to rot to death outside of the Sunwell's influence and power? And how would the one charge invalidate the other?

You could accuse me of being condescending, and you would either be wrong or right completely independent of how frivolous and annoying you are.

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