Metzen on how NOT to act as a fan

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08/10/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Ythisens
08/10/2018 02:23 AMPosted by Lemires
From the latest wowhead interview:

For context this wasn't a Wowhead interview, this was an interview done by Scott Johnson from The Instance podcast, one of the longest running WoW podcasts (I think the oldest but I could be wrong).

Here's the link to the website where you guys can listen to it if you want:
https://www.frogpants.com/blog/2018/8/9/special-interview-chris-metzen-20

If you're a lover of anything that would be considered "geek culture" its a really good interview. It also paints a lot of humanization into someone like Chris Metzen who even I myself built up as a fan for so many years as this mythical endlessly creative being.

I'm really a fan of this style of podcast and really hopeful they do another one.


Another hour of Scott Johnson drooling on him, no thanks.
08/10/2018 02:25 AMPosted by Zaisun
I haven't found any bad writing yet. Other than Jaina and her ghost ship.


The fact that Tyrande ditches Teldrassil's Temple of Elune to save Malfurion during War of Thorns yet does the exact opposite in Legion over at Val'Sharah? Pretty "consistent" character writing. Also the Ghost ship was fine, just a bit of a deux ex machina is all.

Let's not forget Yrel's character development due to cut budget in WoD.
08/10/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Daugil
08/10/2018 11:57 AMPosted by Snowfox
...
I'm not really sure I agree with that.

Writing to me seems a VERY subjective thing.

I'd say good writing is subjective, bad writing, not necessarily.


This doesn't make sense.
08/10/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Feldoriel
08/10/2018 02:25 AMPosted by Zaisun
I haven't found any bad writing yet. Other than Jaina and her ghost ship.


The fact that Tyrande ditches Teldrassil's Temple of Elune to save Malfurion during War of Thorns yet does the exact opposite in Legion over at Val'Sharah? Pretty "consistent" character writing. Also the Ghost ship was fine, just a bit of a deux ex machina is all.

Let's not forget Yrel's character development due to cut budget in WoD.


AGAIN PUT YOUR SELF IN THE CHARACTER'S SHOE'S

Tyrande defended the temple in Legion because her people and Ysera needed her, Malfurian was one person. The battle was not lost.

in BFA pre patch Tyrande was alone, the battle was lost and over and the horde had the tree, malfurian was wounded and if she brought him back to the tree they would both die by Suarfangs own words.

both situations fit her character, but you got to put your self in the story with that characters thinking. NOT YOUR OWN WAY OF THINKING.
The Horde hated the burning cinematic because it seemed out of character, and made us all complicit and evil. Some were on board, but a lot of people justifiably wondered why we'd stand aside and do that. If even Nathanos is starting to 2nd guess you then you know it's kind of an issue.

A lot of us loved the Old Soldier cinematic because it basically said that we weren't all evil, and that there was some hope still left that there was good and honor in the Horde.

It's easy to see how someone can both hate the former and love the latter.

Using in game information it's easy to see why people are upset as it seems to come from nowhere. If you read the short stories it gets better to a degree and her on the spot choice to burn it has some context but it's still not great, which is a shame after the excellent political build up/mind games they play.

Hell it's a shame because the Night Elves put up some very impressive resistance (asranarr spelling) is a great little ambush that nearly works, Malf murders like everything like a boss, and it makes you care about some random NPC you never thought of before. Hell it makes Nathanos interesting when he interacts with Saurfang. It shows why the Alliance did what they did and they seem much more competent, and holy hell if that last scene in the temple was made into a cinematic in game the emotions it would bring to people who easily make it one of the greatest things they've ever produced.

I also believe it's implied that the reason our characters don't stop her is that we canonically aren't involved in this at all. We're never mentioned outside of Saurfang stating that we were super good at fighting the legion. So the reason you don't do anything is that canonically you were not there to be able to do something.
08/10/2018 02:23 AMPosted by Lemires
From the latest wowhead interview:

As the interview progresses, one can start to sense parallels to the most-extreme fan reactions to the Burning of Teldrassil, with the discussion explicitly moving towards WoW around the 30 minute mark. We're reminded that story arcs are started years in advance, and raking one employee over the coals, like Christie Golden, is unfair and unjust. Big decisions like Teldrassil are made way in advance by the game team, only later brought to members of the story team to dramatize the plot, not to actually create the plot.

Overall, Metzen doesn't shy away from stern language, expressing embarassment for the behavior of the nerd community. He's concerned with the community's mentality to throw stones online, and worries that some players cannot differentiate between being mad at an upsetting character within a work of fiction, and being mad at creators tasked to bring a story to life. He also pointed out the hypocrisy of people losing their minds over Teldrassil, completely writing the story off, and then a few days later gushing about how Saurfang's cinematic and story are absolutely perfect.


Given how many people all angry and shouting "bad writing" at Blizzard while attacking Christie Golden on twitter, Metzen's words ring true.

No, your idea of how the story "should" have played out is not valid.

Yes, you should consider that maybe, just maybe, you're being toxic and terrible.

And if you aren't a fan of something anymore, consider that perhaps it is not for you anymore.

@ me with nonsense and get ignored or mocked.


First: The storytelling had no continuity between game cinematic and books. People might have reacted differently if it did first off. After the quest in Darkshore ended Saurfang said nothing while the tree burned and during the cinematic. During Old Soldier we see his dialogue and it changed how people felt but initially it was terribad.

Second: If you are a creator learn to have thick skin not all humans are reasonable.
08/10/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Yasudra
A third example of bad writing (and this is every expansion) is that the Alliance story is boring. Because only the horde is the antagonist. The Alliance needs some internal strife in order to make it interesting.


Absolutely THIS.

Even the current prepatch, despite the atmosphere over the horde under Sylvanas, wherever your opinions lie, is a result of the story's favoritism (maybe not the favoritism of the devs) toward the horde.

If you look at it from a pure meta standpoint, the horde gets all the conflict, all the attention, and dictates the direction of the story just like a protagonist while the Alliance just feels like an opposing force. A mere obstacle for the horde to overcome or learn from. The Alliance is a plot device. When you think about the two factions, not as factions, but as two large characters, the horde plays out way more dynamically and has way more development while the Alliance just seems to remain static most of the time.

Yeah, there is some development under the Alliance, but those moments stand out way more than they do in the Horde because they are such rare events. For the most part, the Alliance just remains static.

It's not a coincidence that the fandom favors the Horde over the Alliance. As someone who has bled blue since 2005, I can honestly admit without a hint of doubt that the Horde is objectively more compelling.

Flesh out our leaders some more, give our leaders more badass moments ffs (that scene with Jaina's ship was MUAH! Give us more of that). Give us some more of that broken soldier trope you love throwing at the Horde so much. Anything. Give us something to work with.
08/10/2018 02:23 AMPosted by Lemires
From the latest wowhead interview:

...

Given how many people all angry and shouting "bad writing" at Blizzard while attacking Christie Golden on twitter, Metzen's words ring true.

No, your idea of how the story "should" have played out is not valid.

Yes, you should consider that maybe, just maybe, you're being toxic and terrible.

And if you aren't a fan of something anymore, consider that perhaps it is not for you anymore.

@ me with nonsense and get ignored or mocked.


First: The storytelling had no continuity between game cinematic and books. People might have reacted differently if it did first off. After the quest in Darkshore ended Saurfang said nothing while the tree burned and during the cinematic. During Old Soldier we see his dialogue and it changed how people felt but initially it was terribad.

Second: If you are a creator learn to have thick skin not all humans are reasonable.


What a pathetic excuse for acting like an !@#$%^-. Even here in the military where thick skin is almost a necessity, those guys that continuously throw rocks at everyone around them (figuratively speaking) always get put in their place. I'm not kidding.
08/10/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Feldoriel
08/10/2018 02:25 AMPosted by Zaisun
I haven't found any bad writing yet. Other than Jaina and her ghost ship.


The fact that Tyrande ditches Teldrassil's Temple of Elune to save Malfurion during War of Thorns yet does the exact opposite in Legion over at Val'Sharah? Pretty "consistent" character writing. Also the Ghost ship was fine, just a bit of a deux ex machina is all.

Let's not forget Yrel's character development due to cut budget in WoD.


The pre-patch writing was bad from the very first and never got better. That's what I'm mostly upset about in regards to the pre-patch.

All they had to do was tweak a few things and everything would have been kosher.

1) Have the war being justifiable from the Horde side by having Sylvanas announce that the Alliance is building Azerite war machines, with the center of that research and development being in Teldrassil, due to its closeness to Silithus. In truth, the Azerite is being tested to see if they can be used for defensive purposes, and the Alliance side shows this.

2) Have the Horde find Azerite war machines in Astranaar. In truth, the war machines are defensive in nature, but it corroborates and supports Sylvanas' earlier statements. On the Alliance side, part of their quests include delivering these defensive war machines to Astranaar to try and hold the Horde offensive off.

3) Sylvanas is legitimately intent upon capturing Teldrassil. A fleet of Blood Elf ships sailed in secret weeks earlier to cross the distance and is hiding nearby, waiting for the Horde armies to clear the way to the north of Darkshore. On the Alliance side, their first quests discover the Blood Elf fleet and the news rouses the Alliance to war, provoking the Night Elves to begin moving those prototype war machines into place in Astranaar.

4) She is legitimately intent on killing Malfurion and nearly does so before Elune steps in and spirits him away. Saurfang is not involved in any way.

5) The Blood Elf fleet arrives, the Night elf forces have been defeated and the first ships begin to ferry soldiers to Teldrassil when they explode at the World Tree's base and catch the tree on fire. Saurfang makes an effort to try and save civilians, but no Horde ships are close enough.

The mystery of how the fire started goes well into mid-expansion with the truth of it coming out after about a year of game time.

The Horde protests their innocence of the mass deaths due to the fire and justifiably defends themselves in this new war, while the Alliance is justifiably outraged and intent on destroying the Horde for this latest travesty.
08/10/2018 12:47 PMPosted by Yasudra
Can we assume then that if you started watching a TV series, that you will watch every episode even if you are bored by episode 10?


Yes there are series that start out Slow but eventually pick up the pace. There are also series that start out Bad but get Better. Usually because ratings sucked and they stopped to ask themselves "why aren't we getting enough people watching?"

But in general, if a book can't Grab you by Chapter 2 its not a good sign of the overall quality of the book. If a TV series can't Grab you within 3 episodes, its not a good sign.

There are exceptions of course. I'd know, I've watched a few series where I was warned "Suffer through the first 5-6 episodes, then hang on as its a roller coaster!"
08/10/2018 04:06 AMPosted by Crepe
08/10/2018 02:33 AMPosted by Garrondorf
I'm sorry, Metzen defended the slow-motion train wreck that was the latest star wars. His opinions are now invalid to me.

'Tis a shame. He was pretty top tier in my book up until this.


I saw this in the thread and I just wanted to add a few cents..

It's OK to disagree with people. To have different opinions. To debate those differences and find common ground or even just agree to disagree.

But this whole "everything they say from now on is invalid" over a single instance of disagreement? That's... inane. Childish. Ridiculous. Damaging to yourself. That kind of inflexibility is limiting and isn't something you should espouse or feel good about.

Disagree. That's awesome. Feel like you need to be convinced of things. That's even better. But the whole bunker mentality thing? Lose it. You'll be better for it.
Once someone loses credibility with you it's hard to take anything they say seriously.
Obviously people should not be sending death threats to writers, or attacking them personally in whatever ways, but people have the right to criticize a story they paid to see.

The execution of the whole thing came off as really lazy. Leading up to the cinematic, the story was leading up to capturing the tree. Sylvanas decides to burn it instead. Then after the cinematic, she gives her speech and talks about how things didn't go to plan, but will work out for the Horde better anyway. Like she wasn't the one who just gave the order to burn it. Then, all of the NPCs just sit there. You can't right click on them for some reaction dialog or anything. If they had put in <Saurfang stares at the burning tree in shock and disgust>, it would have been a more engaging story. As a player in-game it just happened, and now we are supposed to just fly away on our new 'roid bat and do some world quests?

It felt unfinished and unsatisfying. The Saurfang cinematic helped, but there was still this empty space that really took me out of the story, and it could have been filled pretty easily with a bit of dialog. Which leads me to believe that this is bad video game writing, not just a story I disagree with.
08/10/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Icebound
It felt unfinished and unsatisfying. The Saurfang cinematic helped, but there was still this empty space that really took me out of the story, and it could have been filled pretty easily with a bit of dialog. Which leads me to believe that this is bad video game writing, not just a story I disagree with.


Exactly.
08/10/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Orctang
08/10/2018 04:06 AMPosted by Crepe
...

I saw this in the thread and I just wanted to add a few cents..

It's OK to disagree with people. To have different opinions. To debate those differences and find common ground or even just agree to disagree.

But this whole "everything they say from now on is invalid" over a single instance of disagreement? That's... inane. Childish. Ridiculous. Damaging to yourself. That kind of inflexibility is limiting and isn't something you should espouse or feel good about.

Disagree. That's awesome. Feel like you need to be convinced of things. That's even better. But the whole bunker mentality thing? Lose it. You'll be better for it.
Once someone loses credibility with you it's hard to take anything they say seriously.


Same goes for once someone decides they are the arbritier of anything they didn't actually create.
08/10/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Balamoor
Same goes for once someone decides they are the arbritier of anything they didn't actually create.


So, critics and reviews are completely invalid?

Okay then.
cool.

Can we have some notable players to write something about
"how NOT to act as a game designer"

thanks.
Shill gonna shill
08/10/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Infernastorm
08/10/2018 01:12 PMPosted by Balamoor
Same goes for once someone decides they are the arbritier of anything they didn't actually create.


So, critics and reviews are completely invalid?

Okay then.


See inflammatory rhetoric is all you know.

That is what Chris was trying to get at.
I'm sorry for being toxic and terrible for not liking where the story is going. I can't help it i'm just a terrible person. I mean its true, blizzard has never done a disappointing plot twist while i've been playing any of their games for the past decade and more, so i have no idea what could have come over me. But hey its fine, its not like my opinions valid or anything, people have done stupid things with an opinion similar to my own after all.
I take issue with WOD for the simple fact you had all these legendary Orcs, and most had 0 impact on the story.

Hell we didn't even get to kill Garrosh....

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