It's time to ban TSM

General Discussion
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You are pointing your finger at something that is an attempt to combat the real problem, which is an incredibly old and ineffective AH system thats been barely changed in years. The only thing I can think of thats been changed in a very long time is adding a cost per unit sorting.

People wouldnt use an addon if the base UI wasnt garbage.
08/20/2018 04:22 AMPosted by Crepe
Realistically speaking, if there were an addon that was a major contributing factor impacting this many people? Blizzard would squash it.

They haven't done so yet.

So, I'm in the camp assuming that it's not a major contributing factor. They haven't spoken directly to what they feel is doing this other than that it's primarily impacting large population realms.


It's just as likely that they don't have the systems in place to differentiate between TSM flipping through pages, and a player flipping through pages. The AH hasn't received a whole lot of love since vanilla, I'd not be surprised at all if that were the case.
Personally, I just feel it is long past time for a massive overhaul to the AH ui in general. While a huge project, it is something that is drastically needed as the AH itself is extremely dated and clunky and causes need for these AH scanner mods just to effectively use it. I shouldn't need a mod to sift through the first 50 pages of a mat to find the cheapest because of single stacks but at this point anyone who doesn't use a mod is throwing away gold or wasting countless hours.
if only people would stop listing mass quantities of stacks of 1 crafting materials like a bunch of neanderthals
08/20/2018 04:36 AMPosted by Mikoshi
It's just as likely that they don't have the systems in place to differentiate between TSM flipping through pages, and a player flipping through pages. The AH hasn't received a whole lot of love since vanilla, I'd not be surprised at all if that were the case.
Blizzard can protect any function from being utilized by addons. There are plenty of things you can do as a player that your addons simply cannot, and have to be executed with manual button presses or commands. An addon attempting to perform the same action would be denied.

They can break TSM any time they want.

On topic, TSM is not the cause, but it is a factor. The Auction House is an ancient system that was not designed for the amount of traffic its receiving in modern times.

Consider the following:
- Server capacity is higher than ever before. More concurrent players can access the server at the same time than at any point in WoW's history. Sharding alleviates the stress on server performance, but all of those players are still using the same Auction House.

- There are more unique items in the game than ever before. People have lots of random things they are posting on top of stacks upon stacks of new items since this is a brand new expansion. The Auction House is dealing with more stock than ever before.

- Auction House query throttling is very short, something like one second or so. This means that anyone, a player or an addon, can ping the server for information 60 times a second. Each player. Sixty times a second. I may be off slightly, but the throttling is very short either way.

- Queries only provide limited quantities per search. If there are 300 stacks (of any amount) of Winter's Kiss on the Auction House, you would need to ping the server to return Winter's Kiss Page X, where the contents of page X are specific to your current filtering options. To browse each page exactly once, you would need to ping the server for Winter's Kiss 6 times. Unshown results are not cached, and if you turn pages and want to go back, each operation is another query. In TSM's case, it's going to scan every page, every time. A player probably isn't; but they are more likely to at least turn multiple pages to get through the many stacks of 1.

So what's the problem?
- More items than ever before.
- More players concurrently than ever before.
- Basic searches requiring multiple pings for a small amount of data.
- Almost no throttling on number of pings per person.
- No limit on number of auctions per player, or minimum stack size.

TSM is not the problem. TSM may be contributing to the problem due to the number of pings it makes compared to players without the mod, but that's just because it wants to fetch all of the data for a search before displaying it to the user, unlike the default UI which seems to think it's smart to only show portions of a search and run the search each time the user wants to change anything about it.
The AH just needs an update. Even if TSM was causing AH / vendor lag (which I had only experienced in the pre-patch and for me those problems vanished when BfA came out, by the way) that is still a symptom of a severely outdated auction house. Heck, update the interface to something semi-functional at least and I wouldn't really feel the need to use these addons in the first place. It SHOULD be easy to mass look-up prices. It SHOULD be easy to post everything you need to in a few clicks. ECT.

IMO the majority of people using things like TSM are only doing it for convenience, not as some get rich quick plan.
the ah started lagging way after tsm 4 was released and if tsm was lagging the ah id say it woulda began way before the latest update. I think you just want to make people unhappy because you are unhappy.
08/20/2018 05:03 AMPosted by Honkias
the ah started lagging way after tsm 4 was released and if tsm was lagging the ah id say it woulda began way before the latest update. I think you just want to make people unhappy because you are unhappy.
Most people just have no idea what they are talking about and are blaming TSM because it's an easy scapegoat.

And they aren't entirely wrong, there's no question that TSM is exacerbating the issue, but TSM isn't the problem.
Seems like every new expansion there is at least one poster mad at TSM. It's like a right of passage for a new expansion at this point. lolz
08/20/2018 05:05 AMPosted by Ezkanji
08/20/2018 05:03 AMPosted by Honkias
the ah started lagging way after tsm 4 was released and if tsm was lagging the ah id say it woulda began way before the latest update. I think you just want to make people unhappy because you are unhappy.
Most people just have no idea what they are talking about and are blaming TSM because it's an easy scapegoat.

And they aren't entirely wrong, there's no question that TSM is exacerbating the issue, but TSM isn't the problem.


So like a person who has cirrhosis and where alcohol consumption is "exacerbating the issue" but alcohol wasn't the original cause of the problem. Continue drinking?
TSM default post everything from bag is in stacks of 1. TSM isn't at fault, the users are.

They will have to nuke it if they want people to actually use the ah to buy stuff without waiting 2 minutes for one buyout.
08/20/2018 05:29 AMPosted by Notagin
So like a person who has cirrhosis and where alcohol consumption is "exacerbating the issue" but alcohol wasn't the original cause of the problem. Continue drinking?
You're comparing an addon doing what players can already do but more efficiently with a health problem all because of my choice of words?

You aren't comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing apples to trains.

A better analogy would be an understaffed restaurant getting several busses worth of hungry people at once. Except more in line with this specific issue, while they're busy fulfilling orders, they can only show a portion of the menu to each customer at a time and they have to exchange the menu each time a customer wants to look at the other options, including ones they have already seen. As you can imagine, there's a lot going on. It's hectic, it's slow, it's ineffective.

Their system is ineffective but getting slammed "exacerbates the issue". Guess the solution is to ban the busses?
08/20/2018 05:57 AMPosted by Ezkanji
08/20/2018 05:29 AMPosted by Notagin
So like a person who has cirrhosis and where alcohol consumption is "exacerbating the issue" but alcohol wasn't the original cause of the problem. Continue drinking?
You're comparing an addon doing what players can already do but more efficiently with a health problem all because of my choice of words?

You aren't comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing apples to trains.

A better analogy would be an understaffed restaurant getting several busses worth of hungry people at once. Except more in line with this specific issue, while they're busy fulfilling orders, they can only show a portion of the menu to each customer at a time and they have to exchange the menu each time a customer wants to look at the other options, including ones they have already seen. As you can imagine, there's a lot going on. It's hectic, it's slow, it's ineffective.

Their system is ineffective but getting slammed "exacerbates the issue". Guess the solution is to ban the busses?


Too easy. Okay, let's play. A restaurant that popular should be taking reservations.

So AH access by reservation only? lol
...

How long have AH add-ons been around? oops.


A while now, honestly. I remember using an AH addon back in Wrath, I forget what it's called though. Then in Mop I switched to Auctionator and then to TSM in WoD.

Honestly, there were probably ah addon of some kind in Vanilla but I didn't get playing the AH till Wrath.


They've been around for quite some time. Auctioneer released towards the end of Vanilla if I remember correctly. It was a revelation at the time. As for TSM, yeah I have issues with it too now. I've preferred TSM2 out of all the versions.
08/20/2018 06:05 AMPosted by Notagin
Too easy. Okay, let's play. A restaurant that popular should be taking reservations.

So AH access by reservation only? lol
Getting a sudden influx in people does not mean the place is popular. It means the opposite actually. They were clearly not prepared for the traffic so they are scrambling to make do with their poorly designed systems.

The Auction House is 13 years old and has likely not received anything but the bare minimum attention since the beginning of this game to make sure it works with connected realms.

Regardless, no. I told you what was wrong with the particular restaurant. They are understaffed and for some reason can only show portions of their menu to customers at a time and need to exchange menus each time someone asks to see other options. All of those tasks, as well as processing the food, takes time and resources and there are only so many people there to get the work done, and MANY more customers than they were prepared to handle.

In the Auction House's case, the staff is the bottleneck of processing power that the server is able to handle.

The customers are the influx of players which is substantially higher than previous years due to new server architecture allowing for sharding, which means more concurrent players on the same server at once. BfA didn't have queues for a reason, and it's not because the game is supposedly dying. The problem is, all of those shards still use the same Auction House.

And the limited menu is the poorly designed query system which is only showing portions of a search, without caching the undisplayed results, and having to redo the search every time someone changes their sort filter or changes pages on their search.
Bliz needs to optimize their databases. Queries all across the board are taking way too long. This isn't an issue with the addons but an issue on their end.
08/20/2018 06:16 AMPosted by Ezkanji
08/20/2018 06:05 AMPosted by Notagin
Too easy. Okay, let's play. A restaurant that popular should be taking reservations.

So AH access by reservation only? lol
Getting a sudden influx in people does not mean the place is popular. It means the opposite actually. They were clearly not prepared for the traffic so they are scrambling to make do with their poorly designed systems.

The Auction House is 13 years old and has likely not received anything but the bare minimum attention since the beginning of this game to make sure it works with connected realms.

Regardless, no. I told you what was wrong with the particular restaurant. They are understaffed and for some reason can only show portions of their menu to customers at a time and need to exchange menus each time someone asks to see other options. All of those tasks, as well as processing the food, takes time and resources and there are only so many people there to get the work done, and MANY more customers than they were prepared to handle.

In the Auction House's case, the staff is the bottleneck of processing power that the server is able to handle.

The customers are the influx of players which is substantially higher than previous years due to new server architecture allowing for sharding, which means more concurrent players on the same server at once. BfA didn't have queues for a reason, and it's not because the game is supposedly dying. The problem is, all of those shards still use the same Auction House.

And the limited menu is the poorly designed query system which is only showing portions of a search, without caching the undisplayed results, and having to redo the search every time someone changes their sort filter or changes pages on their search.


Too far a stretch.

Anyway, you admitted that you think TSM makes the problem worse. Only thing to be determined is by how much.
08/20/2018 06:22 AMPosted by Notagin
Too far a stretch.
Literally exactly what is happening.

08/20/2018 06:22 AMPosted by Notagin
Anyway, you admitted that you think TSM makes the problem worse. Only thing to be determined is by how much.
I doubt it's substantial. It's not doing anything server-side that a player can't already do except maybe save a few microseconds between pings.
Of course TSM is a factor but the root cause of the slowness is server side. They didn't plan for the influx of items/users/queries.

It's like a store getting bigger doors and saying their out of items because of it. Yes, it's relevant but only at making the real problem more visible.

They're probably scrambling trying to migrate their ah data to more optimized solution.
Nah they need to just add it in game requirements that you need addons to play WoW.

When people stop buying the game then they know it is a problem.

When addons came out it was all good and it was said they were used to "help the community"

Now i think they are just there as a crutch for people and a easy mode for the game. Over and over we see addons being broken because they are pushing these boundaries past certain limits.

It will be the last time i ever buy / pay a sub on a game that allows addons period however.

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