Why is the community so anti-new players or returning players?

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08/31/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Akston
I am not anti-new player or anti-returning player.

I am anti-"lets pretend we care about the new/returning player, when we just want things easier for ourselves". Which is what nearly every THINK OF THE NEW/RETURNING PLAYER argument boils down to.
Exactly this. It's an MMO. Grinds are a part of MMOs. Time gates are a part of MMOs. Highest rank reputation rewards are a part of MMOs.

If you are a returning player, you know this and you've had to do them before. Every single expansion. Even base game. If you are a new player, then either understand that rep and time gated rewards are part of MMOs or find an instant gratification game if you're going to whine about it.

You wanted that raid gear from AQ? You were gated behind rep from mobs. Once a week. And many guilds couldn't even clear it until they had said gear. Which means you weren't getting a lot of rep during that once a week, either. (You daily rep from AQ20 bosses stopped at Honored, and we started at HATED.) Similar to getting your epic ring from Kara, which was needed in many groups to succeed against Prince. And then we had Netherwing etc.

Exalted rewards aren't some new concept. Time gating isn't some new concept.

DO NOT COME HERE AND WHINE ABOUT REP GRINDS. START BEING CONSTRUCTIVE AND COME UP WITH MORE WAYS TO GET YOUR REP INSTEAD.

Rep grinds and time gating aren't going anywhere. Entitled, lazy people need to stop complaining and start asking for ways to get their rep in a better manner.

Otherwise, MMOs aren't for you.
08/31/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Tadkins
08/31/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Sweaters
Either they are completely ignoring all feedback from players now and months and months ago, or this is something they are deliberately doing. Neither is good.


So what answer will you guys take that isn't "oh okay sorry we'll remove all rep grinds :)"?


Either increase rep reward so its not 75 points.
Or
Give us an option to farm it while playing current content in BFA.
08/31/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Tadkins
08/31/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Sweaters
Either they are completely ignoring all feedback from players now and months and months ago, or this is something they are deliberately doing. Neither is good.


So what answer will you guys take that isn't "oh okay sorry we'll remove all rep grinds :)"?


I'd be happy with a non-timegated way to obtain the rep. Preferably one that involves relevant BFA content in some capacity.

At present, the allied race reps have the old xpac grind of a rare mount or appearance, but provide current gameplay advantages with stronger PVP racials for many classes.
08/31/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Akston
I am not anti-new player or anti-returning player.

I am anti-"lets pretend we care about the new/returning player, when we just want things easier for ourselves". Which is what nearly every THINK OF THE NEW/RETURNING PLAYER argument boils down to.


I'm a returning player. I want the allied races locked behind a wall because I want to feel special for climbing over the wall. I don't care if it's just a grind. It's something I had to do.
08/31/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Tadkins
08/31/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Sweaters
Either they are completely ignoring all feedback from players now and months and months ago, or this is something they are deliberately doing. Neither is good.


So what answer will you guys take that isn't "oh okay sorry we'll remove all rep grinds :)"?


The sad reality of it.

Don't forget they will then whine about the leveling until they get a free boost.

Then they'll complain about not having enough content until the dev team slaves away to cater to what they want in that regard.

Then the inevitable unsub thread because they won't have anything else to post about here.

It would be a vicious cycle, but it isn't fortunately.
08/31/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Rijiku
On the other side of the argument. For those who have and say do the rep. Are also acting entitled. It just a different prospective. Just saying.

Entitlement is believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. That is what the people who say do the rep are acting. They ones who already done it want special treatment. This treatment comes in form of making new players do what they had to in last expansion. Ignoring new expansion in the process. Thus, giving old players inherently advantage over returning players. It really a two way street guys. Just got to realize who more entitled I say.

the ones who did it and don't want other to get it a different way. or the ones who want it their own way. The problem is no one wins.


I don't really have an opinion on this topic either way as I'll get exhalted on all reps because I collect tabards. So, I'll get the allied baces anyways buuuuut saying everyone should have to grind the rep to unlock something is the opposite of feeling entitled. Asking for tasks to be removed that were required to get a reward because it isn't fair to [Y] that they should have to do things that [X] has already done "long ago" is, got to be honest, a smidge of entitlement.

Also, if the procedure is that players need to grind the rep to unlock the allied races and a player does that, they ARE ENTITLED to the reward because they completed the required tasks. They're aren't acting entitled, they are legitimately entitled to it. It's what the word actually means , the right to claim something. People often use the words 'entitlement' and 'entitled' as a smear to describe people they think are undeserving of something.. You can't do the required thing and have a "sense of entitlement". You are, LITERALLY, entitled to the allied races if you do the rep grind as set by Blizzard.
08/31/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Embee
08/31/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Amine
...

People are anti-spamming and there are far too many people making duplicate threads on the same issue.

Also, there are very few new players complaining about this, almost all of them are returning players who generally only play a few months of the expansion and this is just the reason they are using to quit this time around. If it wasn't this it would be some other reason they would quit. In fact if they didn't historically do this, they would have the rep from the last expansion and wouldn't be QQing about it.


Or some of us are returning (or didn't level their legion rep'd character) and don't want to farm ~300 old WQs or 10-12 time-gated weeks of boxes. It's not a good system.

I'll grind with the best of them... but not for 75 rep per quest instead of doing current BFA content on my main.

For me, this whole allied race issue is only an issue because they provide a gameplay advantage in PVP after the previous 'best races' were nerfed. It's not about unlocking something that's just visually more pleasing.


You should have done the content last expansion then when it was current then.

I suspect you will do the same thing around this time though - quit before you do the reps and then next expansion same issue.
08/31/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Embee
750 for Kirin Tor, 1500 for Argussian Reach. Those are the boxes available.

The quest chain gets you to almost Revered from nothing. Those of us who are returning or playing new characters have no followers to do the table missions. So, it's around 9.3 weeks if you make it to revered with just quests or 10+ if you don't.

You can supplement the boxes with the weekly invasion points for 1000 rep. To shorten the grind by a bit.

Supposedly you can farm a 1000 rep drop too... but I haven't gotten any after killing all rare WQ elites on the map. Haven't seen this drop yet.

Assuming you're very diligent about all this junk - you can get this done in maybe 4-5 weeks; I don't see how such a long time-gate can be justified for last xpacs content.
Welp if this is true FFFFFFF-!!
it happens in any game that's been out a while and is subject to nerfs/buffs.

the older players are (consciously or not) scared that if there's too many new players, devs could end up catering to them and their uninformed opinions.

something like that, i think.
08/31/2018 11:39 AMPosted by Hetaera
08/31/2018 11:37 AMPosted by Kiwî
New and returning players should have things they can strive to obtain.


Could you show me the equivalent of allied races or rep-gated story content in the past 14 years of wow?


Obtaining Allied Races is no different than running old raids to obtain rare mounts and transmog gear. They are all cosmetic rewards. Races are not content. They are a tool used to complete content.
08/31/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Kaiyeri

DO NOT COME HERE AND WHINE ABOUT REP GRINDS. START BEING CONSTRUCTIVE AND COME UP WITH MORE WAYS TO GET YOUR REP INSTEAD.

Rep grinds and time gating aren't going anywhere. Entitled, lazy people need to stop complaining and start asking for ways to get their rep in a better manner.

Otherwise, MMOs aren't for you.


Firstly, I'm not sure how they brainwashed you- but rep grinds have not been the centerpiece of anything but WoW- and it is recent.

Even in other games where rep grinds were part of epic quests- they typically weren't this long. Several weeks is archaic- I might have seen something that bad in EQ.

Secondly, there are plenty of other progression systems to choose from besides the fairly new and very unimaginative rep grind.

You could have quests, you could have tokens, you could have item turn ins (such as cloth, or whatever else)... you could have a tabard if you love rep.

At the very least- whatever they choose could be part of BFA- the expansion the feature was sold with!

Stop representing Blizzards unimaginative, boring, and lazy design as "standards" of all MMOS.

THEY AREN'T.

WoW is not the only MMO, it's not even the best MMO... so stop saying if you refuse to accept crap, that you must not like MMOs.
08/31/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Amine
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Or some of us are returning (or didn't level their legion rep'd character) and don't want to farm ~300 old WQs or 10-12 time-gated weeks of boxes. It's not a good system.

I'll grind with the best of them... but not for 75 rep per quest instead of doing current BFA content on my main.

For me, this whole allied race issue is only an issue because they provide a gameplay advantage in PVP after the previous 'best races' were nerfed. It's not about unlocking something that's just visually more pleasing.


You should have done the content last expansion then when it was current then.

I suspect you will do the same thing around this time though - quit before you do the reps and then next expansion same issue.


The Allied Races are not 'Legion races'. They are still relevant to BFA content. They provide current gameplay advantages and should be unlockable through a current rep grind.

I don't understand where all the hostility and arrogance comes from on this topic. I'm not asking for a free pass, I'm asking for a more sensible way to earn the races. Have you tried to find a group for a greater invasion point in the last week?

Honestly though, even if people were asking for the races to be unlocked without rep... I don't see how that affects you at all.
I don't follow how wanting blizzard to keep rep requirements for allied races means you hate new or returning players. There are numerous things locked behind reputation grinds in wow. These races aren't any different than the rest of them.
08/31/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Kaiyeri
08/31/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Akston
I am not anti-new player or anti-returning player.

I am anti-"lets pretend we care about the new/returning player, when we just want things easier for ourselves". Which is what nearly every THINK OF THE NEW/RETURNING PLAYER argument boils down to.
Exactly this. It's an MMO. Grinds are a part of MMOs. Time gates are a part of MMOs. Highest rank reputation rewards are a part of MMOs.

If you are a returning player, you know this and you've had to do them before. Every single expansion. Even base game. If you are a new player, then either understand that rep and time gated rewards are part of MMOs or find an instant gratification game if you're going to whine about it.

You wanted that raid gear from AQ? You were gated behind rep from mobs. Once a week. And many guilds couldn't even clear it until they had said gear. Which means you weren't getting a lot of rep during that once a week, either. (You daily rep from AQ20 bosses stopped at Honored, and we started at HATED.) Similar to getting your epic ring from Kara, which was needed in many groups to succeed against Prince. And then we had Netherwing etc.

Exalted rewards aren't some new concept. Time gating isn't some new concept.

DO NOT COME HERE AND WHINE ABOUT REP GRINDS. START BEING CONSTRUCTIVE AND COME UP WITH MORE WAYS TO GET YOUR REP INSTEAD.

Rep grinds and time gating aren't going anywhere. Entitled, lazy people need to stop complaining and start asking for ways to get their rep in a better manner.

Otherwise, MMOs aren't for you.
Good lord. Rep-grinds are completely fine on their own, as you said they are essentially a part of the genre and act to reward players who put in the effort.

The issue in this case is the reward, much less about the grind itself. In order for new players to unlock them, they need to create a temporary character that they potentially may have no interest in all in effort to finally play as the race they've bought the expansion for. During this process the player may quite literally do nothing but go through the unlock process because it can be discouraging to do anything on the character you don't plan on maining.
I'll use the Highmountains as an example.

Why isn't completing the story line in that zone enough? It makes sense lore-wise because you help them out and it's something that you will get done playing normally - as in leveling your character either while Legion was current or a fresh character during BfA. (However, this would leave out people starting from scratch using the 110 boost)

Wouldn't this make the most sense and be a happy medium?

Do something similar with Suramar, maybe not the whole zone to completion, but to a point where you are friendly both rep and story-wise with them. Same for the other OLD content races.

Mag'har and Dark Irons aren't as bad because you are at least grinding current content, but what would it hurt to not require anything? Blizzard still gets my sub because I am leveling a character basically from scratch or I'm spending/buying a boost.
08/31/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Tadkins
08/31/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Sweaters
Either they are completely ignoring all feedback from players now and months and months ago, or this is something they are deliberately doing. Neither is good.


So what answer will you guys take that isn't "oh okay sorry we'll remove all rep grinds :)"?
Simple. “We have removed the daily lock out of world quests in Argus. Players will now be allowed to complete unlimited world quests through out the zone for applicable factions.” Thats all I need boss. We don’t gotta change amount you get per turn in, lower the level from exalted to revered what have you. Just let players bang it out to exalted and get back to the content that currently relevant. Is that really that unreasonable?

*Edit* Of course this only applying to the “Legion Races”
08/31/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Abattøir
08/31/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Kailenna
...

I haven't really seen many people say they want the rep to stay. It seems like people either want it removed, or they don't care if its removed or not. I was annoyed at the people complaining about it during the prepatch because they had a bunch of time to get it done but I wouldn't mind if they removed it now that bfa is out.


I want it to stay.


I personally would be fine with revered, it’s the people whom want it completely removed that are imo being silly.
A solution Blizzard would love is to just stick allied races in the store for like $25 each. That seems to make sense with the current trend of their game design.
I'm brand new to this game. I started playing at the end of Legion (around May of this year). Sure, rep grinding can be tedious, but I don't see how it's not new-player friendly. As far as I know, there have always been things unlocked as you gain higher reputation - why would they change that for the new people?

And, in all honestly, I loved doing the old content! I love the story and the main quests give you a huge chunk towards unlocking the allied races anyway.

I guess I just don't see the fuss... but as I new player, I'm pretty happy!

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