Here's what happens when you cater to "raiders"

General Discussion
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09/07/2018 07:20 PMPosted by Näglfär
And why would all of the content be accessible for the people who don't fully embrace the WORLD in WORLD of warcraft?

Again, you're trying to tell me how the game should cater more to people like you, but you don't even play the game as it was intended.

It's not a single player RPG, the end game has and will always be group content in games like this, even pseudo-MMOs like Destiny and The division operate this way, because it's a MULTIPLAYER experience.

If you want to cut that half out for whatever reason, no problem, that's up to you. But that doesn't mean you're entitled to anything the rest of us get.

You want something? Earn it. Or lament your personal neuroses.
Gee - I think you are mixing up what I said with assumptions or something. I don't want the half of the world that is group dungeons, raids or PvP. I'm all for players that like those things, but I'm not one of them. And both player types help pay the dev bills.

I've played this "not a single player RPG" pretty much solo continuously since BC. I don't have everything and I don't get to end game in each expansion until an expansion or two later. But I was always able to accomplish general things like flying and max level professions (not max level recipes, just level) in current until Legion.

Edit - Sorry. I can see some confusion when I said... "Where the mats and pets and gear you get in raids are no longer attractive to those who don't venture into the netherworlds because everyone already has them. "

Currently players like me buy those special things from AH which gives raiders, etc. more gold. If you only have raiders then everyone already has those things. I can see where it seemed I wanted everything.
I don't believe an MMO community gets stronger or the game gets better when we attack each others' play-styles.
WoW launched at a time when dial up was still a thing and people were more tolerant of bugs and server outages. Social media was also effectively MySpace and you used AoL or Yahoo Instant Messenger to talk to friends instantly rather than just text on the phone. Any game in the last 10-15 years that launches with bugs is often quickly thrown into the failure pile. Games like Assassin's Creed Unity and Mass Effect Andromeda could have possibly had done better despite the bugs at release if released 10-20 years prior, but social media and mob mentality nearly killed the Assassin's Creed franchise and shelved for the long term the Mass Effect one. If WoW launched now with the bugs it had at launch, it'd be F2P inside of a year and likely shut down or be on life support within 5 years of that.

It's a shame to see a game go, but that's the fate of all online games eventually. It'll be a bad day when services like Steam and Origin disappear if all of their games aren't allowed to be played offline and without the launcher.

WoW launched at a good time and had a far more tolerant player base at the time. And unfortunately any game that follows either has to be perfect at launch (impossible) or suffer. It's rather sad today so many are so intolerant of bugs, lag, etc. I remember the days where we bought a game and if there was a bug we had to write the developers to get a floppy disk with a patched file or game. In the meantime, we had to either deal with the bug or forget the game for a few weeks. That's even if they patched it at all.
09/06/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Saelara
09/06/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Yahargul
But I thought Wildstar was fun!


It was certainly fun. Unfortunately Wildstar had the same issue that other MMOs did which is that most people are too invested into WoW to make a switch.

At this point, assuming someone is a Wrath / Cata baby, they have played this game for 8 years. That's a long time and people are less likely to want to leave something they have invested a significant amount of time in.

Also Wildstar had a bunch of bugs that the devs didn't fix quickly enough which made some people meh towards them.

There are a lot of MMOs on the market that do some things better than Blizzard. Rift, Wildstar, FF Online, Black Dessert, etc. But getting people to leave WoW / or return to an MMO that isn't WoW is another thing entirely. The game has to be pristine for that to happen.

This is a sad truth. Ff14 is a objectively better designed game with better graphics and I really enjoyed it. However on WoW i have a 110 of every class and a few mil gold. I couldn't get my friends to change over either due to these reasons.
09/06/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Dmo
Keep it up blizzard. Keep catering to the top end and see what happens. Keep spending all our money on content for one singular subset of players.


Wut? This game is actively punishing you for putting in effort this xpac.
The reason wildstar failed was because the whole design was geared heavily towards high-end raiders and hardcore players.

As an example the first boss in the very first dungeon had mechanics that would have been considered tricky for a heroic raid in wow.

The game was designed for hardcore players but no matter the game and no matter how dedicated the hardcore crowd is , the majority of the player base will always be more casual. Wildstar was not casual-friendly so it failed to hold an audience.

You can complain that "filthy casuals" shouldnt be playing your game all you want, but the simple truth is those casuals are the ones that keep the games alive with their sheer numbers.
Some small minded thinking from the OP and 166+ upvotes, only a portion of WoW actually is designed for hardcore raiders.
09/07/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Brazzurjin
Some small minded thinking from the OP and 166+ upvotes, only a portion of WoW actually is designed for hardcore raiders.

K then, to back up that claim specify which parts of the game are causal friendly and which parts cater to hard core raiders.
09/06/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Dmo
https://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/news.cfm/read/49708/ismb/1/wildstar-carbine-studios-shutting-down-wildstar-to-close.html

Make your game full of raids and gates that only a handful of people will try or beat and then cling to that design philosophy like a fat kid having his cake taken away.

This is what happens when former blizzard raid designers decide to make an mmo for their ex-everquest buddies.

It fails. Becomes a laughing stock. Fails again. Rebrand as f2p. And then fails to the point of closing down.

Keep it up blizzard. Keep catering to the top end and see what happens. Keep spending all our money on content for one singular subset of players.


I've played since launch. It has never been more friendly to casual players.
The difference is, in this game anyone can be a raider.
What wildstar did wrong was the approach to its "top."

WoW still offers you dozens of catch ups and gear falling out the sky.

Even if it were true that they only cater to serious players (which it obviously is not) please remember the only thing holding you back from being one of the people being catered to is your own interests.

I hope more and more people will take the step to being more serious about the game now that progression difficulties are under way in BFA.
Trust me, you'll never have more fun in a video game than your first big success after many failures along side a group of your close friends.

Its what we were born to do, albeit likely not in a video game!
09/07/2018 09:33 PMPosted by Zën
K then, to back up that claim specify which parts of the game are causal friendly and which parts cater to hard core raiders.

The only thing catering to hardcore raiders is Mythic. The rest is for casual players - you don't even really need a raid team to do heroic early in the patch. M+ doesn't require a team. There's nothing really there that requires huge dedication anymore.
09/06/2018 04:57 PMPosted by Emeraldas
It was horrible. If you guys like it so much why you ain't playing it? The game barely had 1000 players online.


Try 300 lol
09/06/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Ughash
Everquest is still alive you know


I still log in my old EQ character, she is level 60. It was a difficult game, virtually no casual content, nothing could be achieved alone.

I did love it, yet Warcraft is my Game.
09/07/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Eccentricah
09/06/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Dmo
https://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/news.cfm/read/49708/ismb/1/wildstar-carbine-studios-shutting-down-wildstar-to-close.html

Make your game full of raids and gates that only a handful of people will try or beat and then cling to that design philosophy like a fat kid having his cake taken away.

This is what happens when former blizzard raid designers decide to make an mmo for their ex-everquest buddies.

It fails. Becomes a laughing stock. Fails again. Rebrand as f2p. And then fails to the point of closing down.

Keep it up blizzard. Keep catering to the top end and see what happens. Keep spending all our money on content for one singular subset of players.


Or, you could read the comments on that post: Cash Shop, NCSoft, bad server management, cartoony, lack of a hook, bad combat design, etc etc etc.

There is so much to do in WoW that anyone who complains about boredom is frankly unbelievable. Literally having nothing to do and wanting to do nothing are two entirely separate and distinct things. WoW is so casual friendly it's almost ludicrous.

There is absolutely nothing in WoW that is beyond the abilities of anyone, unless of course they refuse to improve their gameplay or spend their time.

The problem is professional victimhood and refusal to accept personal responsibility.


Most of what there is at the wow buffet is frankly poop. I don't enjoy world quests but they are the only way to get rep. There are people who don't enjoy dungeons but they are the only way to get the story. Pets are even rep locked now. I miss when this game seemed to be designed by gamers for gamers from vanilla til mop when the entire point of the game wasn't to get you to punch a daily clock. Devs actually cared about the world and wanted you to enjoy it however you wanted. The attempted removal of flight the removal of the alt friendly part of the rep system from mop the removal of dungeon tabards. The massive pruning of abilities. The only thing fun left in the game is raids and dungeons and even those have huge chore tasks associated with them that drag out the time you have to play every day. The Azerite system sucks at least with the artifact system you were getting something every level.
MMOs need people to play their game. Not laugh at how their game became a meme with that utterly massive picture showing the absurd attunement process.

But before any of that I got into the stress test beta and did not enjoy it. It taught me that I actually like auto attacking, the game felt too button mashy for me. Maybe it got better at later levels but they couldn't keep me interested for more than a couple hours or so.
BFA is far more casual friendly than legion was.
09/07/2018 09:04 PMPosted by Carona
The reason wildstar failed was because the whole design was geared heavily towards high-end raiders and hardcore players.

As an example the first boss in the very first dungeon had mechanics that would have been considered tricky for a heroic raid in wow.

The game was designed for hardcore players but no matter the game and no matter how dedicated the hardcore crowd is , the majority of the player base will always be more casual. Wildstar was not casual-friendly so it failed to hold an audience.

You can complain that "filthy casuals" shouldnt be playing your game all you want, but the simple truth is those casuals are the ones that keep the games alive with their sheer numbers.


I avidly played WildStar, then came back after a break when it free to play (hey I like free stuff) I didnt find any of its content any harder then what we have in WoW, and there was plenty to do other then hardcore HM and Raids.

Being hardcore was definitely not the core reason to cause WildStar to fail. There was a lot of mismanagement going on behind the scenes, delayed and missed development deadlines, cut content, etc.

Just another case of over promise under deliver.
09/07/2018 06:35 PMPosted by Zën
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Huh? They added a bunch of crap, boring content for more casual players to do that gives out free gear for little effort. What more do you want exactly?

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?????

Azerite is unfriendly to raiders, not to causals. You don't have to care what traits your azerite pieces have.

You go ahead and tell yourself that. Won't make it anymore true though.
both of those claims are false.


You...

You seriously think Azerite is something that's designed for raiders? Seriously? Blizzard removed tier sets, something that WAS designed for raiders in favor of making Azerite.

No, Azerite was not designed for raiders. Not at all. It's horrible for raiders, especially considering it caused the removal of tier sets.
...
You go ahead and tell yourself that. Won't make it anymore true though.
both of those claims are false.


You...

You seriously think Azerite is something that's designed for raiders? Seriously? Blizzard removed tier sets, something that WAS designed for raiders in favor of making Azerite.

No, Azerite was not designed for raiders. Not at all. It's horrible for raiders, especially considering it caused the removal of tier sets.


Honestly? I don't think azerite was designed for anyone. More casual players see a huge grind and decide to say screw it. More serious players see a huge grind that they must do to unlock traits and many, not all, sigh and get to it because they see a reward at the end of the tunnel. However, I don't think a whole lot of either side are having fun with it.

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