How to fix Classic PVP

Classic Discussion
09/01/2018 05:48 PMPosted by Curt
PvP is Blizz like to the t.
You just skip to the end basically.


Except "skipping to the end" isn't Blizz like even a little. The vast majority of people in pvp, especially bgs, did not have that gear because it required grinding rep through bg wins and token turn ins and/or weeks to months of incremental progress through rank to buy them while dealing with honor decay every week.

It would be like saying "Raiding is Blizz like to the t" after being given T1 or even 0.5 gear upon log in and then going to clear MC or BWL. The gearing itself was a HUGE part of Vanilla and the VAST MAJORITY did not have EITHER raiding or high level PvP gear.

As much as I hate the term for it's obvious disdain for PvP focused customers AND actual real marginalized people in the real world...there's a reason the phrase "Welfare Epics" existed. The concept of PvPers being able to get good gear without first grinding until their eyes bled was completely alien before that point.
As others have said here, the gear difference is part of what makes it rewarded to work for gear. No changes please.
10 second head start huh? It's obvious you never played Vanilla.

PvP being the way it is, is one of the few things that is bringing me back to Classic.
I think BFA or other games might be more your speed.
I do agree, however, they are going to have to do something about the classic honor grind instead of just leaving it as is. I knew people who literally lost jobs and girlfriends because they had to play 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week to advance.

It made the PvP community on your OWN faction toxic and angry. People demanding you tell them how much honor you've made that week and threatening you in whispers because you might pass them.

It became an ever increasing arms race every week to see who could get the most honor even WITH people agreeing to step down once they'd had "their turn" as HWL/GM.

2 weeks of 18+ hour days of PvP to get from 0% of Rank 11 to 65%. Week 3 they screwed up honor calculations so I didn't budge from 65%. Week 4 I was up to 96% of the way to Rank 12. Week 5, my real life friends started nagging me to go out bar hopping with them so I took Saturday and Sunday off, but HAD ground Monday-Friday 18 hour days. After honor calculations, I dropped all the way back down to 33%.

I lost 4 weeks of work because I decided to take a break from being a no-lifer for TWO DAYS.

It was an insane ugly brutally unhealthy system that CANNOT go live on Classic.
#nochange
09/01/2018 08:38 PMPosted by Hecatomb
I do agree, however, they are going to have to do something about the classic honor grind instead of just leaving it as is. I knew people who literally lost jobs and girlfriends because they had to play 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week to advance.

It made the PvP community on your OWN faction toxic and angry. People demanding you tell them how much honor you've made that week and threatening you in whispers because you might pass them.

It became an ever increasing arms race every week to see who could get the most honor even WITH people agreeing to step down once they'd had "their turn" as HWL/GM.

2 weeks of 18+ hour days of PvP to get from 0% of Rank 11 to 65%. Week 3 they screwed up honor calculations so I didn't budge from 65%. Week 4 I was up to 96% of the way to Rank 12. Week 5, my real life friends started nagging me to go out bar hopping with them so I took Saturday and Sunday off, but HAD ground Monday-Friday 18 hour days. After honor calculations, I dropped all the way back down to 33%.

I lost 4 weeks of work because I decided to take a break from being a no-lifer for TWO DAYS.

It was an insane ugly brutally unhealthy system that CANNOT go live on Classic.


The system works well. It's a system where you compete to get more points than other people, not some arbitrary target you try to hit, there is nothing wrong with that system. There are other MMO's that use basically the same system, ESO is one of them, except there you're competing against all factions for Emperor, not just your own. You just need to know your limitations, and realize not everyone can be #1.
If people have an addiction or some issue that causes them to think playing like that is healthy, that is on them, not Bliz.
09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
09/01/2018 08:38 PMPosted by Hecatomb
I do agree, however, they are going to have to do something about the classic honor grind instead of just leaving it as is. I knew people who literally lost jobs and girlfriends because they had to play 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week to advance.

It made the PvP community on your OWN faction toxic and angry. People demanding you tell them how much honor you've made that week and threatening you in whispers because you might pass them.

It became an ever increasing arms race every week to see who could get the most honor even WITH people agreeing to step down once they'd had "their turn" as HWL/GM.

2 weeks of 18+ hour days of PvP to get from 0% of Rank 11 to 65%. Week 3 they screwed up honor calculations so I didn't budge from 65%. Week 4 I was up to 96% of the way to Rank 12. Week 5, my real life friends started nagging me to go out bar hopping with them so I took Saturday and Sunday off, but HAD ground Monday-Friday 18 hour days. After honor calculations, I dropped all the way back down to 33%.

I lost 4 weeks of work because I decided to take a break from being a no-lifer for TWO DAYS.

It was an insane ugly brutally unhealthy system that CANNOT go live on Classic.


There is nothing wrong with that system, if people have an addiction or some issue that causes them to think playing like that is healthy, that is on them, not Bliz.


It isnt healthy but will sure as hell do it anyway.
This would be a fundamental change.

It's a no from me.
09/01/2018 08:51 PMPosted by Malgrinn
...

There is nothing wrong with that system, if people have an addiction or some issue that causes them to think playing like that is healthy, that is on them, not Bliz.


It isnt healthy but will sure as hell do it anyway.


Guess I could have used "okay" instead of healthy, but yeah. People are in control of their own lives. If I ate McDonalds every day and got up to 350 lbs, I'm not going to say "McDonalds, you need to change your fries, I gained 200 lbs from eating them already, you need to do something about it".
09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
09/01/2018 08:38 PMPosted by Hecatomb
I do agree, however, they are going to have to do something about the classic honor grind instead of just leaving it as is. I knew people who literally lost jobs and girlfriends because they had to play 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week to advance.

It made the PvP community on your OWN faction toxic and angry. People demanding you tell them how much honor you've made that week and threatening you in whispers because you might pass them.

It became an ever increasing arms race every week to see who could get the most honor even WITH people agreeing to step down once they'd had "their turn" as HWL/GM.

2 weeks of 18+ hour days of PvP to get from 0% of Rank 11 to 65%. Week 3 they screwed up honor calculations so I didn't budge from 65%. Week 4 I was up to 96% of the way to Rank 12. Week 5, my real life friends started nagging me to go out bar hopping with them so I took Saturday and Sunday off, but HAD ground Monday-Friday 18 hour days. After honor calculations, I dropped all the way back down to 33%.

I lost 4 weeks of work because I decided to take a break from being a no-lifer for TWO DAYS.

It was an insane ugly brutally unhealthy system that CANNOT go live on Classic.


The system works well. It's a system where you compete to get more points than other people, not some arbitrary target you try to hit, there is nothing wrong with that system. There are other MMO's that use basically the same system, ESO is one of them, except there you're competing against all factions for Emperor, not just your own. You just need to know your limitations, and realize not everyone can be #1.
If people have an addiction or some issue that causes them to think playing like that is healthy, that is on them, not Bliz.


I'm not saying it does or doesn't need to be changed, but rewarding that behavior absolutely is on Blizzard. You can't create a system that requires players to compete 18/7 or cheat outright and then blame the players.

Again, I'm willing to accept the old system under the "Vanilla, warts and all" principle but the people making this argument do have a point.
Oh HELL no.

Templates are the worst thing that have ever happened to WoW's pvp.
Classic PvP does not need to be fixed. If you want the "fixed" version retail WoW is your game.
09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
The system works well.


They why did they remove it without replacing it?

09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
It's a system where you compete to get more points than other people, not some arbitrary target you try to hit, there is nothing wrong with that system.


Wrong. It was a system where everyone who pvp'd contributed to a server's honor pool and if you wanted to rank up you HAD to have a certain percentage of the TOTAL honor pool or you went down in rank. So literally everyone on your server who was pvping regardless of their level or Rank impacted you and vice versa.

No matter how much you pvp'd there was no way of going from Rank 1 to Rank 14 without a SIGNIFICANT time investment of several weeks/months because you were gated by both level and weekly honor calculations.

Going from Rank 13 to Rank 14 was a minimum of 3 weeks of grinding.

In addition, honor decay meant that every week you HAD to pvp more than the previous week or you LOST rank. Hence my example of losing an entire month's worth of progress because I took two days off of PvPing even WITH 5 days of honor already banked.

You could not simply take a week off, lose rank, and then come back and grind back up without spending WEEKS first hitting arbitrary targets you claim didn't exist.

It was a system that encouraged win trading and account sharing and going AFK in graveyards to leech honor. It encouraged toxicity and hostility to members of your own faction because it made literally every pvper who is not part of your PvP group a rival to your own progress.

It didn't reward skill, it ONLY rewarded time invested.

Look up Longarms the Hunter from Earthen Ring. He was a retiree who was TERRIBLE at pvp (I personally killed him between 5-10k times) but he was the longest running Grand Marshall in World of Warcraft because he refused to stop playing 18-20 hours of PvP a day even after getting his title and gear.

Because there were only two GMs allowed at any time, this meant that anyone who wanted GM gear was REQUIRED to make sure they earned AS MUCH honor as him or they would not advance.

It was an arms race. And every week it escalated and got more vitriolic and toxic while actively encouraging and rewarding EXTREMELY unhealthy behavior and the only way of opting out was to do no PvP at all.

09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
There are other MMO's that use basically the same system, ESO is one of them, except there you're competing against all factions for Emperor, not just your own.


I have not played ESO, but looking it up I don't see weeks of progress required to get Emperor. Nor do I see any mention of the best PvP weapons and armor being locked behind rank. It simply says "Whoever has the most points" which was not even REMOTELY close to the Vanilla PvP system.
Vanilla had the smallest gear gaps and more room for counterplay when compared to any expansion. You have no idea what you're talking about, just like the rest of your kind.
09/01/2018 08:38 PMPosted by Hecatomb
I do agree, however, they are going to have to do something about the classic honor grind instead of just leaving it as is. I knew people who literally lost jobs and girlfriends because they had to play 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week to advance.

It made the PvP community on your OWN faction toxic and angry. People demanding you tell them how much honor you've made that week and threatening you in whispers because you might pass them.

It became an ever increasing arms race every week to see who could get the most honor even WITH people agreeing to step down once they'd had "their turn" as HWL/GM.

2 weeks of 18+ hour days of PvP to get from 0% of Rank 11 to 65%. Week 3 they screwed up honor calculations so I didn't budge from 65%. Week 4 I was up to 96% of the way to Rank 12. Week 5, my real life friends started nagging me to go out bar hopping with them so I took Saturday and Sunday off, but HAD ground Monday-Friday 18 hour days. After honor calculations, I dropped all the way back down to 33%.

I lost 4 weeks of work because I decided to take a break from being a no-lifer for TWO DAYS.

It was an insane ugly brutally unhealthy system that CANNOT go live on Classic.


Oh yeah that was just a bad idea. They scrapped it and never looked back.

I do wonder if they wanted to scrap it sooner and didn’t have time simply...
09/01/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Curt
It's a boring 98% gear, 2% skill.
-- but the nice thing is that anybody can do damage, which means as soon as you insta-gib someone, someone else will eventually return the favor.

-- way more balanced than many periods in WoW history.
the whole idea of the project is that people want to play classic again... why would they implement a change that effectively destroys that experience.

i've found that people who say things don't take skill/effort to achieve are typically not skilled enough to achieve said goal. it's always easier to make excuses than put forth effort.
09/01/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Hecatomb
09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
The system works well.


They why did they remove it without replacing it?

09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
It's a system where you compete to get more points than other people, not some arbitrary target you try to hit, there is nothing wrong with that system.


Wrong. It was a system where everyone who pvp'd contributed to a server's honor pool and if you wanted to rank up you HAD to have a certain percentage of the TOTAL honor pool or you went down in rank. So literally everyone on your server who was pvping regardless of their level or Rank impacted you and vice versa.

No matter how much you pvp'd there was no way of going from Rank 1 to Rank 14 without a SIGNIFICANT time investment of several weeks/months because you were gated by both level and weekly honor calculations.

Going from Rank 13 to Rank 14 was a minimum of 3 weeks of grinding.

In addition, honor decay meant that every week you HAD to pvp more than the previous week or you LOST rank. Hence my example of losing an entire month's worth of progress because I took two days off of PvPing even WITH 5 days of honor already banked.

You could not simply take a week off, lose rank, and then come back and grind back up without spending WEEKS first hitting arbitrary targets you claim didn't exist.

It was a system that encouraged win trading and account sharing and going AFK in graveyards to leech honor. It encouraged toxicity and hostility to members of your own faction because it made literally every pvper who is not part of your PvP group a rival to your own progress.

It didn't reward skill, it ONLY rewarded time invested.

Look up Longarms the Hunter from Earthen Ring. He was a retiree who was TERRIBLE at pvp (I personally killed him between 5-10k times) but he was the longest running Grand Marshall in World of Warcraft because he refused to stop playing 18-20 hours of PvP a day even after getting his title and gear.

Because there were only two GMs allowed at any time, this meant that anyone who wanted GM gear was REQUIRED to make sure they earned AS MUCH honor as him or they would not advance.

It was an arms race. And every week it escalated and got more vitriolic and toxic while actively encouraging and rewarding EXTREMELY unhealthy behavior and the only way of opting out was to do no PvP at all.

09/01/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Odnoc
There are other MMO's that use basically the same system, ESO is one of them, except there you're competing against all factions for Emperor, not just your own.


I have not played ESO, but looking it up I don't see weeks of progress required to get Emperor. Nor do I see any mention of the best PvP weapons and armor being locked behind rank. It simply says "Whoever has the most points" which was not even REMOTELY close to the Vanilla PvP system.


1. Ask Blizzard, not me, I am not going to speak for them.

2. Yes, it is a point based system, you contribute points to a pool, the more you pvp the more points you contribute. Get sick, skip a day, someone is going to beat you. Doesn't matter if the mechanics are exactly the same, it is a "You need to contribute more to rank up". The most points are earned in a campaign, not BG's, so think an AV that is going on for a month straight. Essentially in ESO, that is where you're grinding.

3. There are 7 day campaigns, 30 day campaigns, a leaderboard. Like WoW, the more you pvp, the more points you get. The one with the most points becomes emperor. While you're the emperor, you basically become the terminator. 100% gains to your special abilities, 75% increase in regen rates, so yeah, you become the best.
09/02/2018 11:09 AMPosted by Odnoc
<span class="truncated">...</span>

They why did they remove it without replacing it?

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Wrong. It was a system where everyone who pvp'd contributed to a server's honor pool and if you wanted to rank up you HAD to have a certain percentage of the TOTAL honor pool or you went down in rank. So literally everyone on your server who was pvping regardless of their level or Rank impacted you and vice versa.

No matter how much you pvp'd there was no way of going from Rank 1 to Rank 14 without a SIGNIFICANT time investment of several weeks/months because you were gated by both level and weekly honor calculations.

Going from Rank 13 to Rank 14 was a minimum of 3 weeks of grinding.

In addition, honor decay meant that every week you HAD to pvp more than the previous week or you LOST rank. Hence my example of losing an entire month's worth of progress because I took two days off of PvPing even WITH 5 days of honor already banked.

You could not simply take a week off, lose rank, and then come back and grind back up without spending WEEKS first hitting arbitrary targets you claim didn't exist.

It was a system that encouraged win trading and account sharing and going AFK in graveyards to leech honor. It encouraged toxicity and hostility to members of your own faction because it made literally every pvper who is not part of your PvP group a rival to your own progress.

It didn't reward skill, it ONLY rewarded time invested.

Look up Longarms the Hunter from Earthen Ring. He was a retiree who was TERRIBLE at pvp (I personally killed him between 5-10k times) but he was the longest running Grand Marshall in World of Warcraft because he refused to stop playing 18-20 hours of PvP a day even after getting his title and gear.

Because there were only two GMs allowed at any time, this meant that anyone who wanted GM gear was REQUIRED to make sure they earned AS MUCH honor as him or they would not advance.

It was an arms race. And every week it escalated and got more vitriolic and toxic while actively encouraging and rewarding EXTREMELY unhealthy behavior and the only way of opting out was to do no PvP at all.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

I have not played ESO, but looking it up I don't see weeks of progress required to get Emperor. Nor do I see any mention of the best PvP weapons and armor being locked behind rank. It simply says "Whoever has the most points" which was not even REMOTELY close to the Vanilla PvP system.


1. Ask Blizzard, not me, I am not going to speak for them.

2. Yes, it is a point based system, you contribute points to a pool, the more you pvp the more points you contribute. Get sick, skip a day, someone is going to beat you. Doesn't matter if the mechanics are exactly the same, it is a "You need to contribute more to rank up". The most points are earned in a campaign, not BG's, so think an AV that is going on for a month straight. Essentially in ESO, that is where you're grinding.

3. There are 7 day campaigns, 30 day campaigns, a leaderboard. Like WoW, the more you pvp, the more points you get. The one with the most points becomes emperor. While you're the emperor, you basically become the terminator. 100% gains to your special abilities, 75% increase in regen rates, so yeah, you become the best.


there is a video of them stating they wanted to make the game easier for all players(new and old), this is fine however thats not the wow i want which is one reason out of many of why i want Classic back.

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