Vectis is Punishing Small Groups, Ft.: Proof

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
Vectis is absolutely broken for small groups.

Let’s not pretend there isn’t a problem:

Look at some of the logs here (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/19#boss=2134&metric=speed&difficulty=3&search=size.10.11) for 10 and 11 man clears. It is /possible/ to do clears with this few people, but look at the healing numbers: Virtually every group had to push the 95th percentile for HPS. The best execution (measured as the lowest damage taken) with a 10/11 group required 97th percentile raid healing numbers. Compare to any of the 30 man groups (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/19#boss=2134&metric=execution&difficulty=3&search=size.30.30), most float around the 50th percentile for raid healing. Some of these groups went as low as the 9th percentile on good execution runs (higher DPS, shorter fight, less standing in crap, etc.).

So, 10 man groups require a much, MUCH higher performance from healers to kill Vectis. This isn’t obvious from the lack of 10/11 man kills (at the time of writing, there are less than 30, compared to 30 man group kills, of which there are over 600), because that might be sampling error, and there might just not /be/ that many 10/11 groups. There might be hundreds of 10 man groups using Vectis as a loot pinata and not posting logs, but I doubt it. Requiring your group to have some of the best raid healing in the entire game’s population is absolutely a problem.

Damage sources:

On 30 man groups, Omega Vector is dealing about 20-30% of total damage taken. On 10/11, it’s 30-40%. I have several hypotheses as to why:

Vector doesn’t scale applications: In a 10 man group, there are 3 vectors. This means 30% of your raid has the debuff at any one time. In a 30 man group, 10% of your raid as vector at a time. Since the duration is unaffected, this means lingering infection also spirals out of control.

As well, once omega vetor stacks, you cannot unstack it, and the super 3-stack HIV travels around your group, ripping everyone apart and giving them super AIDS if they somehow survive. In a 10 man group, including tanks, there are 9 targets for vector to jump to (you can’t jump it to yourself), so every time vector jumps, in a completely random scenario, there’s a (1/9)^2 = 1/81 chance that omega stacks. In a 30 man, there are 29 possible jumps, so that’s a (1/29)^2 = 1/841 chance it doubles up. In terms of pure probability, 10/11s are going to need some powerful antivirals.

Lingering infection stacks: Lingering infection (+6% nature damage taken) sits around 100-150 stacks (depends on fight length) for 10/11 groups, which take from 4.5 minutes to 7 minutes. 30 man groups had from 150-300 stacks. “But Rhino!” I hear you sputter, “The 30 man groups had more stacks! It’s balanced!” No. It is not. If a 10 man group ends the fight with 125 total stacks (so 12-13 each), they take 6% increased nature damage per stack, so that’s 75% more nature damage per person. A 30 man group, however, can end the fight with 7-8 stacks per person, a total of only 45% increased damage taken. This is not a small gap, and means you’re taking more damage overall, and each individual with vector currently on them is way more likely to die. This is exacerbated by raid size anyway: In a 2/2/6 group, losing one damage dealer takes out about 1/7th of your DPS. in a 30 man 2/6/22 group, it takes out about 1/23 of your DPS.

So nearer the end of the fight, 10/11s are taking more damage per stack of omega vector, and have a harder time managing omega vector anyway.

How 2 fix:

A lot of people are saying “Reduce omega vector applications!” which would work, but kind of throws the math off a bit. It creates a breakpoint where a 14 man (or whatever) group only deals with 2, and a 15 man deals with 3, making a huge difficulty jump by adding people. Of course, with how it is right now, there's still an ideal size: 30, so that’s kind of moot, but I have a better idea:

Reduce the nature damage increase from lingering infection. 10/11s get more stacks. Make the stacks less crippling if there are fewer people. Reducing the stacks to 4% increases brings 12 stacks to 48% damage, which is close (enough) to the actual damage increase on 30 man groups to even out a massive portion of the damage taken. This is also a better solution because you can just scale the percent increase by each person to an ideal “end of fight damage increase” of 50% or whatever, and not have breakpoints where you have one less jump to deal with.

Also, make the vectors jump at different times. Seriously. If they were offset by 2 seconds you could unstack the super HIV, instead of just having one (semi-)random person get shredded for the rest of the fight if you make a positioning mistake that stacks the debuff.

Closing comments:

Pls blizart I don’t want to pug 15 people into my guild runs, I hate randos, pls 2 help. Scale lingering infection damage per stack to raid size.
I posted about this with less detail than you earlier today. Agree on reducing the amount of Vectors for 10m. We were forced to pug 11 to kill him last night and it was NOT pleasant.
While I agree, it's almost unfair how easy it is for 25+ groups, some fights are easier with low numbers, some fights are easier with high numbers.

Once upon a time, bringing 15 fewer players awarded loot 13 levels lower. So a compromise was chosen by Blizzard.
Thank you for doing the work on the stats. This fight is way over tuned for small groups.
We oneshot it with 14 people, 8 of which were pugs. If your group has 10 or 11 I can see vector management being an issue but with 14 people none of our healers were even in the 60th percentile.

Designate three stack points, have each stack point get a separate vector at the outset, done.
Meanwhile MOTHER with 26 was annoying.
I dont think people are getting anything. Stop with the mother with 26 is annoying argument. Look at the logs. A lot of groups with a larger number have completed the raid. Got past Mother. A lot of smaller groups havent, why..... cause vectis is broken for smaller groups. Mother is easy as small and a little harder with larger number but DO ABLE.
My guild has this exact problem, our group consists of 13-14 peopel and we spent 3 hours tonight wiping on vectis before giving up to go recruit more.
Went at this as a 10-11 man group. It was super rough. By the end of the night we had the mechanics down but just couldn't keep up with the heals, even with three healers and the adds dying before the 2nd debuff.

We'll probably move on to other bosses and come back to this with more gear, or just fill the raid with PuGs to make it easier haha. Hoping this gets looked at!
09/06/2018 11:02 AMPosted by Esteemed
While I agree, it's almost unfair how easy it is for 25+ groups, some fights are easier with low numbers, some fights are easier with high numbers.

For instance, MOTHER is a cakewalk with a small raid size, while it is a coordination nightmare for 30 man raids.
09/06/2018 10:06 PMPosted by Swillton
09/06/2018 11:02 AMPosted by Esteemed
While I agree, it's almost unfair how easy it is for 25+ groups, some fights are easier with low numbers, some fights are easier with high numbers.

For instance, MOTHER is a cakewalk with a small raid size, while it is a coordination nightmare for 30 man raids.


How is putting people into groups and then saying "Group # cross over" a coordination nightmare?
We killed Vectis today with an 11 man group after about 1½ hours of wiping. It took some mythic-levels of banging your head against a brick wall before we killed it.

It is definitely unfavorable for smaller groups, but we did get a break on MOTHER instead. But this encounter definitely needs some better tuning.
09/06/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Nifl
We killed Vectis today with an 11 man group after about 1½ hours of wiping. It took some mythic-levels of banging your head against a brick wall before we killed it.

It is definitely unfavorable for smaller groups, but we did get a break on MOTHER instead. But this encounter definitely needs some better tuning.


I was the 11th man in said group and it was definitely frustrating. I really didn't think we were going to kill the boss the attempt we did, and we only just barely got it.

I was late tho so I can't compare to other fights. I didn't think a fight on normal would make a geared group struggle so much... I was the lowest geared by a lot in our group.
10~15 people 2 omega vectors
15+ 3 omega vectors
Boom, solved.
The damage is high for the omega vectors, but it is doable if people only have 1 vector on 3 different people in a group. The problem is when there are 2+ vectors on a single person. Group splitting is a good idea, but when you spread out and have to move around for the goo phase it is possible to cross the streams, so to speak, and get 2+ vectors on one person and never be able to split them off.

A possible solution without having to curtail the damage of the vector by large amounts for smaller groups is to just stagger the timers on the vector debuff itself. If there was a 1s or 2s gap between each of the vector duration initially it would be possible to get multiple vectors and then recover by redistributing them among the raid members.

The problem for small groups is sustained high damage hits. healers have to blast people with their expensive heals to keep them up, but you cant do that for long. They will OOM and wipe, or your DPS all dies and you wipe.

A staggered distribution of the debuff would still require the same attentiveness of healers and it would still require the raid to be mindful of surroundings to spread out the stacks for the soft enrage. However, it would allow smaller groups to recover from the inevitable stacking of the omega vector that the smaller groups are plagued with. This staggering wouldn't help or hurt the higher population raids any more than this encounter already helps their numbers.

The spell could even be modified in normal/heroic/mythic to have less of a gap. normal 2s heroic 1s mythic 0s. It's an execution fight and that would definitely make it more challenging with each level of difficulty.
Vectis is absolutely broken for small groups.

Let’s not pretend there isn’t a problem:

Closing comments:

Pls blizart I don’t want to pug 15 people into my guild runs, I hate randos, pls 2 help. Scale lingering infection damage per stack to raid size.


I'm glad I saw this post. I tried 10 man with my second guild (compared to 20+ with the other guild) and it seemed like a totally different fight. I didn't understand the damage difference, but it's definitely noticeable.
I thought you were talking about heroic, but its normal we're talking about? I agree, that needs to be fixed. Normal mode with small groups is the mainstay of casual guilds and pugs. It shouldn't be that hard.
Yet they wont fix it, or even comment on it because its blizzard. There's some normal fights that are stupid easy and some that are comparable to mythics. They have never been great at tuning for raids. They just wait until you out gear it.
I believe most fights damage is normally designed around 20 man aka mythic raid size and then things scale up or down from there. 20-22 feels very optimal in Uldir. Did a few with 30 including MOTHER and that was a pain. Went back and did MOTHER heroic with 21 and it was a ton easier with the change in mechanics.
If its punishing to smaller grps then make a large one and kick the rest when yer done... there ya go! Its obvious blizz dont care so by doing this youll bring a better light to the problem

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