Do You Think That ILVL Will Become a Thing?

Classic Discussion
09/10/2018 08:52 AMPosted by Tuathaa
09/09/2018 06:34 PMPosted by Parthena
...

ilvl is only useful if all of the gear is itemized properly. In Vanilla, it's not.


It was never itemized correctly in Legion.
They changed the stats so they took a backseat to ilvl and took away the gear farming aspect.


This way in BFA as well.

The QQ over this in Modern WoW is amazing; people will find anything to cry about now days. Its because they're bad, that's why they cry.
From what I've seen of the BfA whining, the problem is mostly the gear pieces associated with the necklace (Heart of Azeroth). Players are suppose to be collecting Azerite to empower the necklace. Pretty much what they did with Artifact Power.

Instead of the necklace having the boosted ability stuff, that's on certain gear pieces that unlock abilities. Sounds good so far.

Except, here's the kicker - each new piece of gear doesn't come unlocked to the same point as the previous piece. So if you get a helm that's +15 iLvl, it's also minus whatever the boosted ability from the HoA was on the prior helm.

Worse, the new gear often comes with requirements for the necklace to be even higher BEFORE it will unlock. Can you imagine winning tier gear, but having to kill a raid boss five more times before the piece bonuses unlock, then having the next higher piece of tier gear from the next raid do the same thing?
09/10/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Härländ
people will find anything to cry about now days

Seriously, I don't play and won't play BfA, but even I can easily understand why players are upset. It's a dumb mechanic that makes a "Woohoo, upgrade!" into a "Ugh, eventually it might be an upgrade, but right now the older, lower iLvl piece is better".
09/10/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Eilethalua
Seriously, I don't play and won't play BfA, but even I can easily understand why players are upset. It's a dumb mechanic that makes a "Woohoo, upgrade!" into a "Ugh, eventually it might be an upgrade, but right now the older, lower iLvl piece is better".


What's actually wrong with that? Why does Item level budget need to make that component "superior" to the next item?

Its my opinion only that stats should always be the deciding factor, where as item level is kinda meaningless because its the stats for your character that you want because it gives you something to actually think about regarding your character build.

Where as when item level is the only deciding factor things are so dull, you just auto equip "higher level item" because on average its just better.. Not fun at all IMO, and the fact that you're looking for some really specific stats is kinda fun.
No one has made a gearscore addon on private servers.

You know why they haven't? It's because item level isn't king on Vanilla. There are a lot of different variables that affect how good an item is for a class that isn't just item level.

Edgemaster's handguards is a level 44 item, and it also happens to be pre-raid BiS for warriors. And Lionheart helm is BiS all the way up to Naxx.

Item level just wouldn't work in Vanilla, and it will never be a thing.
09/10/2018 09:37 AMPosted by Härländ
What's actually wrong with that? Why does Item level budget need to make that component "superior" to the next item?

It's a little different from that. What makes these pieces "superior" in BfA is grinding Azerite into a necklace to raise it's levels, and therefore unlock bonuses on the gear. New gear pieces look at the current level of the necklaces and require even more grinding to unlock the same bonuses that were previously unlocked.

Perhaps a better comparison would be that you have an amazing enchant on the previous item, and until you enchant the new item, the old item is demonstrably better. No big deal, except instead of being a flat mat cost for the enchant recipe, the game decides you will need as many mats as you already spent and have on hand plus some additional amount you'll have to collect, time-locked on the max you can collect daily.

===

I'm actually not saying much of anything about the iLvl as applied to vanilla, because I think that would be utterly ridiculous.

There's no locked specs that make it obvious this class needs this stat. There's no gear with all three main stats that switches to whatever is appropriate to the class/spec wearing it. (Nothing like Paladin plate that has +INT when they're Holy, +STR when they're Ret or Prot.)

There's all sorts of secondary and tertiary stats, with some that have caps to work toward, while others just increase. None of this "two of four" garbage, where no matter what your talent choices, the spec you chose pretty much defines which two are the best for you, and maxing those numbers is the priority.

And, best thing in vanilla, there were FUN bonuses. Sometimes the item with no stats but the armor or the damage was amazing in certain conditions because of a proc it had.
09/10/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Lyianora
No one has made a gearscore addon on private servers.

You know why they haven't? It's because item level isn't king on Vanilla. There are a lot of different variables that affect how good an item is for a class that isn't just item level.

Edgemaster's handguards is a level 44 item, and it also happens to be pre-raid BiS for warriors. And Lionheart helm is BiS all the way up to Naxx.

Item level just wouldn't work in Vanilla, and it will never be a thing.


I suppose one could create an addon that assigns a value to certain stats for different spec's, then tabulates their stat totals from gear in order to assign a point value score to. Hard to do given all of the stat cliffs, etc. in classic, but one could theoretically work around those, i.e. hit is worth a lot until you hit cap, then it's worthless.

I'm not sure such a thing would be created, as ultimately those point values would be rough, arbitrary estimates. I guess we will see. Classic is much less PUG friendly when it comes to high end raiding however, and thus I doubt we see it. High end classic raiding will most likely rely on personal relationships rather than a gear score to get spots.
09/09/2018 04:05 PMPosted by Hairylegs
If groups demand addons for gearscore/ilvl, I'll do the same as reserves and simply not run with them. When that gearscore add-on became popular in wrath, I would constantly criticize people for using them and said how stuff like that was going to lead to bad things in the future...


Yep it was disgusting.

I remember someone asking me for my gearscore or something when joining a zg group in classic.
Didn't know what it was so I posted my gear to him and he told me what mine was.

I suppose one could create an addon that assigns a value to certain stats for different spec's, then tabulates their stat totals from gear in order to assign a point value score to. Hard to do given all of the stat cliffs, etc. in classic, but one could theoretically work around those, i.e. hit is worth a lot until you hit cap, then it's worthless.

I'm not sure such a thing would be created, as ultimately those point values would be rough, arbitrary estimates. I guess we will see. Classic is much less PUG friendly when it comes to high end raiding however, and thus I doubt we see it. High end classic raiding will most likely rely on personal relationships rather than a gear score to get spots.


But we didn't have "specs" in vanilla. There were classes with talent trees and there were several variations of assigning points in your trees.

Once you got your 40 points the other points could be assigned anywhere.
A holy pally for example could be holy/prot or holy/ret.
09/09/2018 04:05 PMPosted by Hairylegs
If groups demand addons for gearscore/ilvl, I'll do the same as reserves and simply not run with them. When that gearscore add-on became popular in wrath, I would constantly criticize people for using them and said how stuff like that was going to lead to bad things in the future...


To be fair gearscore didn't lead us anywhere, it was just a symptom of what Blizzard had been doing.

They didn't like that in Vanilla often an item from a higher tier raid was worse for you than what you already had, and in TBC they started to put a bigger gap in item level between raids so that the stats would overpower anything from lower tiers(and had more gear specifically itemized for each of the hybrid specs).

It's only natural that once item level became the most important thing because of how big of a gap there was between tiers that we would start judging pugs by their item level as we knew nothing else about them. Gearscore was just an add-on designed to quickly assess the item level that had become so important, since it was still hidden away from us at the time.

That's why it likely wont be a thing in Classic. Item level isn't the most important thing on a piece of gear. The jump with each raid tier isn't big enough, and the itemization is all over the map still.
09/10/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Eilethalua
It's a little different from that. What makes these pieces "superior" in BfA is grinding Azerite into a necklace to raise it's levels, and therefore unlock bonuses on the gear. New gear pieces look at the current level of the necklaces and require even more grinding to unlock the same bonuses that were previously unlocked


Yeah, I was not gonna get off into the weed on the Azerite snafu; that's a whole new manufactured problem Blizzard's got their hands full on at the moment. I'd love to support em on that, but there is no way in hell a guy can honestly support that massive charly foxtrot.

I was trying to keep it in the lines of standard typical items; where you can still get some items that are stronger even though the item level is lower.
09/10/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Brockthorn
But we didn't have "specs" in vanilla. There were classes with talent trees and there were several variations of assigning points in your trees.

Once you got your 40 points the other points could be assigned anywhere.
A holy pally for example could be holy/prot or holy/ret.


Don't ya know Brock, these guys now days want to be TOLD what to do by a computer, they don't want to think for them selves any more.
iLevel don't mean much if you have to wear crafted nature resist in AQ and such. Resist gear was usually blue or green quality and certainly not raid drop quality.
I don't know if ilvl will be a thing or not but the reason people started using it will still be there. So even if ilvl isn't a thing don't expect not to be judged by people taking a cursory glance at your gear and don't be surprised if there's some addon that supports it.
09/10/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Lyianora
No one has made a gearscore addon on private servers.

You know why they haven't? It's because item level isn't king on Vanilla. There are a lot of different variables that affect how good an item is for a class that isn't just item level.

Edgemaster's handguards is a level 44 item, and it also happens to be pre-raid BiS for warriors. And Lionheart helm is BiS all the way up to Naxx.

Item level just wouldn't work in Vanilla, and it will never be a thing.


I'm sure if Classic becomes popular enough, there will be someone with the addon knowledge will make the effort to create such an addon. In fact, a similar addon already exist in retail that does something similar as what you described (Pawn). It would not be difficult for someone to take the mechanism in that addon and modify it to create a 'vanilla score or Vscore' that is based on attributes of str/agi/int/+hit/+crit/mp5 instead of ilevel.

It can even supported different scoring formulas for each class/specs and even different configuration for same class/spec like different scores for a gear for pvp priest or pve priest and even support different stats weights for holy/disc or disc/holy priest configuration. Even in resistance base fights, a template for 'resistance' can also be supported where more scores is given for that resistant stat.

As demonstrated by the growth of scoring systems in the past like gearscore and raider.io, once someone creates a scoring addon for Classic, it will grow in usage because people will always want to have an easy method to differentiate themselves from others and guid/raid recruiters will always welcome a tool to help in their task.
I don't know if ilvl will be a thing or not but the reason people started using it will still be there. So even if ilvl isn't a thing don't expect not to be judged by people taking a cursory glance at your gear and don't be surprised if there's some addon that supports it.


14+ years and there's no add-on that supports it on pservers.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum