Elemental in 8.1

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09/18/2018 06:25 PMPosted by Edo
What are those strengths that are supposed to be there but are absent?

For me, it would be tankiness + off-healing.

Get out of here. Shamans already have -tons- of utility, and having some situationally useful stuff like this would not help the spec actually feel better to play.

True hybrids are dead.
The hybrid tax is dead.

Having your suggestion as our strength to counter our lack of mobility would just be a return of the hybrid tax.
Wow can Aff warlock get some talent changes too and have them be some sort of competitive choices instead of wtf is shadows embrace doing in that tier or even existing and just remove nightfall,Wow can Aff warlock get some talent changes too and have them be some sort of competitive choices instead of wtf is shadows embrace doing in that tier or even existing and just remove nightfall
09/18/2018 06:25 PMPosted by Edo
Juts a reminder to everyone asking for more mobility: Ion specifically mentioned that the turret-like playstyle is by design, but that there should be offsetting strengths for the spec to be wanted.

What are those strengths that are supposed to be there but are absent?

For me, it would be tankiness + off-healing. Both Shaman DPS specs should bring a significant amount of off-healing that's highly desirable both in group content and solo play. Earth Shield needs to be closer to Roots of Shaladrassil in strength. Ancestral Guidance could be a passive. There could be a mechanic to spawn lesser earth elementals on damage proc that tank enemies for a short while.

Adding something like that, while keeping the limitations of the spec, would really help in carving a unique identity and a very noticeable layer of utility for a class that has a lot of invisible utility.


I don't mind the mobility we have now if we'll have our Lava Burst damage buffed. Hardcasting Lightning Bolts as our main source of sustained damage is bad idea as I said. If I get kicked on Nature's school I'm useless for 4-5 sec. All I can do is pop Astral Shift, cast 4 k damage Lava Burst or Ice Fury (if we will keep playing with it lol). If someone will be smart will keep kicking Ele on Nature's school only and then our sustain we be even worse.

Whenever Blizzard tries to shift Ele damage from Lava Burst our spec is barely viable:

1. WoD - it became really good with the last season of WoD (Lava Burst damage buff)
2. Legion - until 7.1 it was barely playable - then they made Stormkeeper changes and we were only viable due to Lightning Rod and very Gimmicky. In 7.2 they shifted damage towards Lava Burst and then Ele started to shine again.

As we can see whenever they try to make ele not based on Lava Burst it's just bad.

The most fun part of playing Ele in PvP is using it's utility correctly - using grounding on traps, polies and other crowd controls, temoring fears etc. How would I do this if my enemies will only wait to kick me on nature spell (that I have to cast) to polymorph/trap/fear my healer without being afraid of Tremor or Grounding.
09/18/2018 06:32 PMPosted by Vaenaru
09/18/2018 06:25 PMPosted by Edo
What are those strengths that are supposed to be there but are absent?

For me, it would be tankiness + off-healing.

Get out of here. Shamans already have -tons- of utility, and having some situationally useful stuff like this would not help the spec actually feel better to play.

True hybrids are dead.
The hybrid tax is dead.

Having your suggestion as our strength to counter our lack of mobility would just be a return of the hybrid tax.


According to comments made by Blues/Devs, it seems Ele still has to pay the hybrid tax.
This is the worst band aid...typing from thumbs so please pardon my brevity. So much no in here my head hurts. My favorite awful change is the new talent to increase MS cap and lower EQ ES cost. We spend so much time generating MS that it's stupid in any other situation other than PvP to want to cap it. Seriously, make that a PvP talent but give us something better. How about just buff MS generation so it doesn't take a year and a day to drop an EQ. You give us quaking, sanguine, bursting, and heavy movement fights yet EQ has a high cost and silly small area. Why don't we start my modify the current issues w ele first before adding in and removing all sorts of stuff. Flame shock CD feels awful. Echo is a mandatory choice as is primal ele. Fix the other slots in the tirer. Buff the damage output of current spells. The blackout combo is just awful too, especially since again, it takes a weekend to even cast ES.

Ugh..my faith in the shammy devs is fading fast, and it was already pretty low since they announced that sorry, we ran out of time before bfa launch, but yeah....still give us your money cause we don't care.

Trying to not be negative like so many of the toxic posts, but really...REALLY...do the devs for shaman actually play on any kind of semi competitive level?? I'll wait for the PTR but this really all sounds terrible! Why do we have to lose ES dmg for a LB buff? LB simply tickles your target. Yeah, it's a filler, but it's such garbage. Autoattacks hit harder...
3) Primal Elementalist: Currently, if you have Primal Elementalist taken, you cannot have multiple elementals out. If you try to summon a second elemental, fire elemental always wins. That is, if you have an Earth Ele out, it is dismissed and the Fire Ele is summoned. And if you have Fire Ele out and try to summon Earth Ele, the Earth Ele is not summoned, but the ability goes on cooldown. It'd be nice if Earth Ele was blocked from being casted while Fire Ele is out if you have this talent.

I'd like to add to that if this talent (Primal Elementalist) is selected, to have the following buff (the other elementals still receive the typical buff that this talent currently provides):
Available for Shaman Elemental spec only -

1) A permanent Earth Elemental (as a pet), OR

2) Cool Down for Earth Elemental to be down to 1 minutes (from the initial cast of the spell), and for Earth Elemental to last at least 2 minutes.
I'm just curious if anyone can explain to me. What's the point of increasing the maelstrom cap. You'd cast earthshock anyways once you get enough maelstrom and there's no scenario in which the cap increase would be helpful.
Days ago, Josh said they need to fix how the devs and the community comunicate with each other.

Then, we realize of how much the Shaman community has said which are the problems with the Elemental Shaman.

And again, the Devs ignore all of that and try to test some contrived things that adress nothing at all all the problems the community has said multiple times.

Good.
09/18/2018 05:40 PMPosted by Lore
Just as a quick update, here's the current version of the experimental new talents that will be hitting the PTR soon. Reminder that these are experimental, the PTR is for testing, we'll probably iterate on or completely replace these designs, etc.

Call the Thunder - Your maximum Maelstrom is increased by 30, and the Maelstrom cost of Earth Shock and Earthquake is reduced by 10.

Surge of Power - Earth Shock also enhances your next spell:
  • Flame Shock: The next cast does not incur a cooldown.
  • Lightning Bolt: Your next 3 casts will cause an additional Elemental Overload.
  • Lava Burst: Reduces the cooldown of your Fire (or Storm) Elemental by 6 sec.
  • Frost Shock: Roots the target in place for 6 sec.


Can you or anyone else explain why Blizzard seems to be so profoundly against removing the cd on Flame Shock altogether? It's probably the number 1 request by players (which I guess might actually be the reason in and of itself???) and it's obviously worked out fine in the past.

Does Blizzard think that Flame Shock without a cd would be somehow too overpowered? I suppose I just don't understand why it was changed in the first place.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17622423349?page=1 - I made this post on EU. This is pretty much what I think will help in both PvP and PvE. If you want enjoy reading.
09/18/2018 05:40 PMPosted by Lore
Just as a quick update, here's the current version of the experimental new talents that will be hitting the PTR soon. Reminder that these are experimental, the PTR is for testing, we'll probably iterate on or completely replace these designs, etc.

Call the Thunder - Your maximum Maelstrom is increased by 30, and the Maelstrom cost of Earth Shock and Earthquake is reduced by 10.

Surge of Power - Earth Shock also enhances your next spell:
  • Flame Shock: The next cast does not incur a cooldown.
  • Lightning Bolt: Your next 3 casts will cause an additional Elemental Overload.
  • Lava Burst: Reduces the cooldown of your Fire (or Storm) Elemental by 6 sec.
  • Frost Shock: Roots the target in place for 6 sec.


Hehehehe
HAHAHAHA
Oh no no no no HAHAHAHAHA oh god.
Are you real on this? Please tell me you're not and this is just a very elaborate cruel ruse please please HAHAHA.
Can't wait to see how Demo/Destro stays destroyed and how Balance and Shadow goes the same fate.
09/18/2018 05:40 PMPosted by Lore
Just as a quick update, here's the current version of the experimental new talents that will be hitting the PTR soon. Reminder that these are experimental, the PTR is for testing, we'll probably iterate on or completely replace these designs, etc.

Call the Thunder - Your maximum Maelstrom is increased by 30, and the Maelstrom cost of Earth Shock and Earthquake is reduced by 10.

Surge of Power - Earth Shock also enhances your next spell:
  • Flame Shock: The next cast does not incur a cooldown.
  • Lightning Bolt: Your next 3 casts will cause an additional Elemental Overload.
  • Lava Burst: Reduces the cooldown of your Fire (or Storm) Elemental by 6 sec.
  • Frost Shock: Roots the target in place for 6 sec.


Nope.

Elemental will be garbage as long as Flame Shock has a cooldown. If you're serious about wanting to improve it, you'll remove the Flame Shock CD and revert Earth Shock to Legion mechanics.

The core mechanics are the problem. Details aren't. Everything that you've posted is mere details.

You just don't want to listen.
All warlock specs are barely playable in PvP. They have broken damage and 0 survivability. Before they are even able to ramp up their damage they die. Few examples of rank 1 warlocks dying in silly way:

https://clips.twitch.tv/CoweringHandsomeMushroomTebowing

https://clips.twitch.tv/MuddyStylishWormPermaSmug
09/18/2018 06:52 PMPosted by Fixxit
I'm just curious if anyone can explain to me. What's the point of increasing the maelstrom cap. You'd cast earthshock anyways once you get enough maelstrom and there's no scenario in which the cap increase would be helpful.

PVP and AOE (stormkeeper often makes the maelstrom go over the cap)
Doesn't make sense to take out dmg from ES to put into LB, our dmg is already low as is, no reason to shift dmg when we need more.
Thanks Nimox and Lore for the update. I'll also keep an eye on the PTR to see if any kind of numbers have been tweaked, but weren't worth mentioning (e.g. Icefury). I will preface this by saying that I am a little disappointed that there were so few changes, after having to wait for a patch to see them. But, maybe that was just me over-hyping myself.

Shifting damage from ES to Lightning Bolt does fit well with the "low mobility" theme we've been presented as having, and will smooth our damage through a fight. It'll reduce the feeling of "feast or famine" we have with Earth Shock at the moment, however it will hurt our target swapping (which relies heavily on pooled Earth Shocks at the moment). Similarly, it will hurt us any time we would be generating with CL but dumping ES into a priority target. Until we see numbers, I can't be sure how big/small this change will be.

The Lava Burst change is a welcome one, but I do wonder why we couldn't have just gone to Lava Burst not relying on Flame Shock, and always critting - as I suggested in the OP. The change you're making will allow us to open with Lava Burst on new targets, be it a precast or a new spawn. But, it does still force us to use the GCD on a flame shock, even on targets that may only last for 5 seconds, which feels bad.

I really like the talent changes. The EB change is great and the Stormkeeper change will help it on single target, where it was lacking.

I like the idea of the Master of the Elements change, but it does present a bit of oversight: We don't use Lava Burst on AoE, meaning the talent will still not be competitive for area damage. This was actually one of the big points I was trying to make in my original post: I would really like to see Lava Burst pushed into the AoE rotation. It would both make the spec feel more complete (Lava Burst is a thematic ability), and help with how slow the current AoE rotation feels to play.

As far as the new talents, I like Call the Thunder a lot as a talent, but I do wonder why it ended up in the lvl 60 row instead of the lvl 30 row (alongside TM and AfS - two other "maelstrom" talents). Swapping CtT to 30 and MotE to 60 would make a lot of sense here. Surge of Power is interesting, and I look forward to seeing how the design progresses throughout the PTR. I do think the Flame Shock bonus is pretty lacking - I know "Flame Shock cooldown" is a big ticket item, but locking that kind of thing behind an Earth Shock cast doesn't really help the situation. I'd much rather if it was simpler like "the next Flame Shock also affects a nearby target" or "the next Flame Shock lasts longer and does more damage".

As far as things I do think are definitely missing from this build, that I hope can be brought in before the patch goes live it is the following:
1) Echo going baseline. It's something pretty much everyone seems to agree on, so I'm not sure of the hesitation. Having a quality of life talent compete with other interesting talents is just a lame situation to be in.
2) Introducing LvB into the AoE rotation. My original post's suggestion is not the only way to do this, but I do think any way of doing this would be a tremendous boon to ele's enjoyability. Our AoE rotation is so boring at the moment, and introducing an ability that already has so many interactions built around it would really help with gameplay.

I know it's still early, so I look forward to seeing how everything pans out on the PTR, and to any more changes we may see in the future. Again, thanks for the communication.
I think moving damage from ES to LB is a mistake. This will cause us to handle movement even worse than we already do. Also... fillers aren't the fun part of any spec. If you want us to use more lightning just switch the rolls of LB and LvB. Other than that though the QoL changes seem nice.

Really hoping to see more of an actual rework for elemental in 8.1 though. The currently listed changes really don't touch the areas that make elemental feel so bad to play right now. I would really like to see:

-Remove the cd on flame shock

-Echo of the elements base line

-Some core mechanic to replace elemental focus and give our spells some actual interaction with each other

-Some big improvements to survivability/utility. We need a strength to offset low mobility! Also, almost all of our current utility is reactive rather than proactive (outside of cap totem). I would love to see something that is actually fun to use with some potential to cheese mechanics on an individual level (examples of spells that do this are blink, shadow step, immunities, etc...)

-Also, the currently proposed talents to be removed are a good start, but it feels like more should be considered. Like: Earthen Fury (just use that animation for ES!), Unlimited Power, Spirit Wolf, and Earth Shield. They are either non-interactive passives or aren't useful (looking at you spirit wolf -.-).

Really hoping we can keep some open communication with the devs going so that we can make elemental as fun to play in Bfa as it was in Legion!
The damage from Earth Shock needs to be offloaded to Lava Burst instead of Lighting bolt.

I'm pretty sure players would want to see Lava Burst getting that damage buff instead of Lighting Bolt. Its what we asked for all of Alpha, Beta, and for the last month. Lava Burst hits like a wet noodle. I would say Shaman love casting Lava Burst while Lighting Bolt is kind of meh. Chain Lighting we like a lot, but we love Lava Burst. Of all spells to pick to buff Lighting Bolt is the worst choice because its the one we like the least, it's the filler. It's not the button we want to push, that would be Lava Burst, it's the spell we love. It's also the spell that can also insta cast with proc. Lava Burst is the spell we want to see hit hard.

The reason players are upset about the Earth Shock change is because it is the only spell that does real damage and makes the difference in PvP. It's also instant cast. Lighting Bolt has a long cast time and is easy to get locked out of. Players would not be so upset about Earth Shock damage being reduced if it wasn't the corner stone of their PvP game. That's why Lava Burst should be where that damage should go. With Lava Surge Lava Burst becomes insta cast and Lava Burst is what should do the damage. If we are going to play hit and run I want to do it with Lava Burst.

We all know Earth Shock is a real problem. A lot of our damage is locked behind a maelstrom gated spell that takes a lot of time to build. RNG is a real problem with ES, if your RNG lucky you can ES someone to death in PvP and they will never have a chance. I don't like how ES is effecting the Ele PvP meta. You can go watch some Ele shaman killing a lot of people in 1 v 1 fights, but the entire time its a hit and run game that takes a LONG time (long time in a PvP environment). What are your chances you are going to have that time to kite and whittle your opponent down in Arenas or a RBG?

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