Elemental in 8.1

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I really do find it comical that the vast majority of suggestions have been the exact same suggestions we gave them an alpha and beta.

1. Flame Shock - 6 second CD needs to be reverted or the spell needs to be removed completely and LvB given 100% crit.

2. Lava burst - damage needs to be buffed, it hits like a wet noodle. Off load Earth Shock damage and move it to Lava Burst.

3. Maelstrom generation - this was mentioned a lot in Alpha and Beta, but that was because our damage was locked behind it. If the ES change is done properly this might not be an issue anymore.

4. Fire Elemental - we are far too reliant on this cool down. People may say earthshock is our hardest hitting spell but it doesn't hold a candle to the Fire Elemental. In Alpha and beta we said FE's damage should be lowered and given to Lava Burst.

Now here we are 9 months later and the community is still saying the same thing, but this time it's just not Alpha and beta players it's the entire community.

These four things though was probably the most talked about fixes for shaman in Alpha and Beta.
Can Blizzard just !@#$can whoever is in charge of shaman design please? These changes just scream that they don't get what's wrong with Elemental and that the players and devs are on completely different pages.
Blizz is having another Tseric moment. We clearly define what we would like and they give us the complete opposite because they know better.
True Facts.

1) you aren't invited to groups because of your echo chamber !@#$%ing. When all anyone hears on forums or anywhere is "Our class is complete ^-*! and not viable" .. guess what happens when you apply for a group. I have a friend who is maining ele this expansion and hes the top or near the top every raid pull on similarly geared players.

2) Presently Shamans DPS specs arent preforming that badly.. its just required QoL and talent variety which they are clearly trying to address. Survivability.... try being a warlock right now...

3) Stop asking for flame shock off CD.. they won't do it.. they already said they don't want them being a multidot class. Also they did take the flame shock lava burst interaction on alpha.. people said the spec felt completely disjointed.

4) THEY AREN'T TRYING TO MAKE YOUR SPEC GOD TIER. I mean you expect this @#$% from coming to class forums anyways.. but what im seeing is "oh great now we can't 1 shot people instantly with EarthShock... that all we had" while that might be true thats not healthy.. its just a seriously broken aspect to spec that has issues. "give us lightning bolt on the move so were mobile, give us more aoe, increase our numbers, give us more defensives in PVP.

Like if you were hoping they would make you a mobile, aoe beast, with great single target, with amazing survivability, and awesome burst damage with multidots... well guess what.. its not going to happen. In fact.. last expansion when you were gods of AOE M+ and did have a niche.. everyone ^-*!@ed and moaned about how niche you were..
09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
True Facts.

1) you aren't invited to groups because of your echo chamber !@#$%ing. When all anyone hears on forums or anywhere is "Our class is complete ^-*! and not viable" .. guess what happens when you apply for a group. I have a friend who is maining ele this expansion and hes the top or near the top every raid pull on similarly geared players.

2) Presently Shamans DPS specs arent preforming that badly.. its just required QoL and talent variety which they are clearly trying to address. Survivability.... try being a warlock right now...

3) Stop asking for flame shock off CD.. they won't do it.. they already said they don't want them being a multidot class. Also they did take the flame shock lava burst interaction on alpha.. people said the spec felt completely disjointed.

4) THEY AREN'T TRYING TO MAKE YOUR SPEC GOD TIER. I mean you expect this @#$% from coming to class forums anyways.. but what im seeing is "oh great now we can't 1 shot people instantly with EarthShock... that all we had" while that might be true thats not healthy.. its just a seriously broken aspect to spec that has issues. "give us lightning bolt on the move so were mobile, give us more aoe, increase our numbers, give us more defensives in PVP.

Like if you were hoping they would make you a mobile, aoe beast, with great single target, with amazing survivability, and awesome burst damage with multidots... well guess what.. its not going to happen. In fact.. last expansion when you were gods of AOE M+ and did have a niche.. everyone ^-*!@ed and moaned about how niche you were..


By random goblin warrior. Classic type of post "I don't play shaman myself but I know someone who does".

If your Elemental friend is top or near top in raid tell the rest of your dps'es that they need to make some research about their rotations, stat priorities and bis azerite traits. Ele can only top damage on 5 man bosses because these fights are short and his cooldown stacking is so strong that before it will stabilize the fight is already over.

1. I never asked for no cd on Flame Shock - I think it's fine.

2. I said that Earth Shock 70-90k crits are broken and they shouldn't happen.

3. I accept our mobility and I say we don't need Lightning Bolts casted while moving.

All we need is damage shift from Earth Shock to Lava Burst and maybe a little bit to Lightning Bolt. We need better sustain damage. Ele was always known for Lava Burst when it was viable. Why are they desperately trying to shift from Lava Burst to Lightning Bolt when it doesn't work and actually never worked. Whenever they tried it Ele was gimmicky and barely viable in any content or bracket. The main problem is that hardcasting Lightning Bolts as the main source of sustain damage makes us more vulnerable to damage and being interrupted on nature school what's our biggest issue. Shaman when he is interrupted can't use any spell besides Astral Shift, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, Icefury or Frost shock. It means than every RMX or Jungle will abuse kicking shaman. They will poly/trap healer when he cannot ground/kick it because he is kicked. Biggest Elemental strength will be denied this way.
I'm curious to know if the dev team is considering this to be a full rework? Is this really all they've had plan for the spec? This is not a rework, this is a minor balance change that shifts priorities and makes no mechanical difference. In the end it's just moving parts and making it appear that they're really doing something. #lazy
09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
I have a friend who is maining ele this expansion and hes the top or near the top every raid pull on similarly geared players.

So, why isn't your friend posting here? Means other people in the group are just performing poorly.

09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
Presently Shamans DPS specs arent preforming that badly.. its just required QoL and talent variety which they are clearly trying to address. Survivability.... try being a warlock right now...

Required QoL and talent variety that could have been done during alpha/beta with the countless pages of feedback that were given. Stop throwing the topic aside for a different class that was utterly broken in terms of survivability for the first 6 months of Legion.

09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
its just a seriously broken aspect to spec that has issues.

Because that's all the spec has in terms of pvp. Lava Burst hits like a wet noodle and Lightning Bolt has never been worth casting in a pvp situation. Icefury isn't worth taking due to the maelstrom generation of Stormkeeper being significantly better. Earthen Rage should have been removed as a dead talent, Echo should be baseline since nothing else is taken in that tier.

09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
last expansion when you were gods of AOE M+ and did have a niche.. everyone ^-*!@ed and moaned about how niche you were..


Broadly, we've tried to define areas in which specializations should excel (single-target, cleave, AoE, spread, clumped, burst, sustained, etc.), and areas where they should lag behind.

Word for word what Ion said from his AMA. We HAD a niche, but with the damage being dumped into Fire Elemental (which no one wanted) it turns the spec into a glorified 2.5 minute aoe slot machine and lackluster light show everywhere else.
09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
True Facts.

1) you aren't invited to groups because of your echo chamber !@#$%ing. When all anyone hears on forums or anywhere is "Our class is complete ^-*! and not viable" .. guess what happens when you apply for a group. I have a friend who is maining ele this expansion and hes the top or near the top every raid pull on similarly geared players.

2) Presently Shamans DPS specs arent preforming that badly.. its just required QoL and talent variety which they are clearly trying to address. Survivability.... try being a warlock right now...

3) Stop asking for flame shock off CD.. they won't do it.. they already said they don't want them being a multidot class. Also they did take the flame shock lava burst interaction on alpha.. people said the spec felt completely disjointed.

4) THEY AREN'T TRYING TO MAKE YOUR SPEC GOD TIER. I mean you expect this @#$% from coming to class forums anyways.. but what im seeing is "oh great now we can't 1 shot people instantly with EarthShock... that all we had" while that might be true thats not healthy.. its just a seriously broken aspect to spec that has issues. "give us lightning bolt on the move so were mobile, give us more aoe, increase our numbers, give us more defensives in PVP.

Like if you were hoping they would make you a mobile, aoe beast, with great single target, with amazing survivability, and awesome burst damage with multidots... well guess what.. its not going to happen. In fact.. last expansion when you were gods of AOE M+ and did have a niche.. everyone ^-*!@ed and moaned about how niche you were..


I love how constructive your feedback is. Maybe you should provide it to your own class and bugger off.
Thanks for finally acknowledging Elemental needs work and sharing with us what you are thinking. I mean that sincerely - it's been frustrating to have zero dev interaction from beta through a new raid tier, but changes coming should mean at least some relief from this community.

As far as the changes, please seriously consider making both Echo of the Elements baseline, as well as removing the flame shock cooldown (or having lava burst not require flame shock to auto crit again).

Echo is an old talent that should have been baked in to the spec a long time ago, especially when looking at similar QoL changes that have been made to other classes. The way it stands now (or even with your proposed buffs to elemental blast), it's hard to look at other talents on the row considering the effect this has on gameplay.

Flame shock cooldown reduction was removed in legion and specifically cited by the devs as being an antiquated mechanic and was removed for a quality of life improvement, as the damage it does is negligible. Nothing has changed with this, yet we got the cooldown back after just one expansion where we weren't anywhere near overpowered. The cooldown makes the spec feel slow and weak, as flame shock seems to always be down when swapping to a priority add in a raid, or just moving on to the next mob out in the world.

Gust of wind would be nice too.
09/19/2018 08:32 AMPosted by Brodan
09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
True Facts.

1) you aren't invited to groups because of your echo chamber !@#$%ing. When all anyone hears on forums or anywhere is "Our class is complete ^-*! and not viable" .. guess what happens when you apply for a group. I have a friend who is maining ele this expansion and hes the top or near the top every raid pull on similarly geared players.

2) Presently Shamans DPS specs arent preforming that badly.. its just required QoL and talent variety which they are clearly trying to address. Survivability.... try being a warlock right now...

3) Stop asking for flame shock off CD.. they won't do it.. they already said they don't want them being a multidot class. Also they did take the flame shock lava burst interaction on alpha.. people said the spec felt completely disjointed.

4) THEY AREN'T TRYING TO MAKE YOUR SPEC GOD TIER. I mean you expect this @#$% from coming to class forums anyways.. but what im seeing is "oh great now we can't 1 shot people instantly with EarthShock... that all we had" while that might be true thats not healthy.. its just a seriously broken aspect to spec that has issues. "give us lightning bolt on the move so were mobile, give us more aoe, increase our numbers, give us more defensives in PVP.

Like if you were hoping they would make you a mobile, aoe beast, with great single target, with amazing survivability, and awesome burst damage with multidots... well guess what.. its not going to happen. In fact.. last expansion when you were gods of AOE M+ and did have a niche.. everyone ^-*!@ed and moaned about how niche you were..


By random goblin warrior. Classic type of post "I don't play shaman myself but I know someone who does".

If your Elemental friend is top or near top in raid tell the rest of your dps'es that they need to make some research about their rotations, stat priorities and bis azerite traits. Ele can only top damage on 5 man bosses because these fights are short and his cooldown stacking is so strong that before it will stabilize the fight is already over.

1. I never asked for no cd on Flame Shock - I think it's fine.

2. I said that Earth Shock 70-90k crits are broken and they shouldn't happen.

3. I accept our mobility and I say we don't need Lightning Bolts casted while moving.

All we need is damage shift from Earth Shock to Lava Burst and maybe a little bit to Lightning Bolt. We need better sustain damage. Ele was always known for Lava Burst when it was viable. Why are they desperately trying to shift from Lava Burst to Lightning Bolt when it doesn't work and actually never worked. Whenever they tried it Ele was gimmicky and barely viable in any content or bracket. The main problem is that hardcasting Lightning Bolts as the main source of sustain damage makes us more vulnerable to damage and being interrupted on nature school what's our biggest issue. Shaman when he is interrupted can't use any spell besides Astral Shift, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, Icefury or Frost shock. It means than every RMX or Jungle will abuse kicking shaman. They will poly/trap healer when he cannot ground/kick it because he is kicked. Biggest Elemental strength will be denied this way.


If you want damage shifted to Lavaburst you will literally never be viable. The problem with tuning around lavaburst is you can have 40 procs in an encounter, and you can have 10 procs in an encounter. Then people will (justifiably) complain its completely an RNG spec thats rolling the dice.
1. Lavaburst and Flameshock untied.
2. EQ changed into a targetable ablitlity.
3. Echo of the Elements baseline.
4. Remove Primal Elementalist for a more engaging talent.
5. Move Earthshock damage to Lavaburst instead of Lightning Bolt.
What if Flame Shock had three charges that worked like Destruction Warlock's conflagrate?

Do you think that would work good enough?
09/19/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Gidgets
09/19/2018 08:32 AMPosted by Brodan
...

By random goblin warrior. Classic type of post "I don't play shaman myself but I know someone who does".

If your Elemental friend is top or near top in raid tell the rest of your dps'es that they need to make some research about their rotations, stat priorities and bis azerite traits. Ele can only top damage on 5 man bosses because these fights are short and his cooldown stacking is so strong that before it will stabilize the fight is already over.

1. I never asked for no cd on Flame Shock - I think it's fine.

2. I said that Earth Shock 70-90k crits are broken and they shouldn't happen.

3. I accept our mobility and I say we don't need Lightning Bolts casted while moving.

All we need is damage shift from Earth Shock to Lava Burst and maybe a little bit to Lightning Bolt. We need better sustain damage. Ele was always known for Lava Burst when it was viable. Why are they desperately trying to shift from Lava Burst to Lightning Bolt when it doesn't work and actually never worked. Whenever they tried it Ele was gimmicky and barely viable in any content or bracket. The main problem is that hardcasting Lightning Bolts as the main source of sustain damage makes us more vulnerable to damage and being interrupted on nature school what's our biggest issue. Shaman when he is interrupted can't use any spell besides Astral Shift, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, Icefury or Frost shock. It means than every RMX or Jungle will abuse kicking shaman. They will poly/trap healer when he cannot ground/kick it because he is kicked. Biggest Elemental strength will be denied this way.


If you want damage shifted to Lavaburst you will literally never be viable. The problem with tuning around lavaburst is you can have 40 procs in an encounter, and you can have 10 procs in an encounter. Then people will (justifiably) complain its completely an RNG spec thats rolling the dice.


Strange because that's how Arms Warriors work. Their damage is shifted to Mortal Strike they get procs that reset the Mortal Strike and they are good. You can't believe the developers are so stupid that they can't figure this out. Especially since we can give examples of other classes that work that way and they're just fine.
All they really need to do is change Lava Burst from chance to proc on DOT tick to proc per minute.
09/19/2018 09:12 AMPosted by Goraxe
09/19/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Gidgets
...

If you want damage shifted to Lavaburst you will literally never be viable. The problem with tuning around lavaburst is you can have 40 procs in an encounter, and you can have 10 procs in an encounter. Then people will (justifiably) complain its completely an RNG spec thats rolling the dice.


Strange because that's how Arms Warriors work. Their damage is shifted to Mortal Strike they get procs that reset the Mortal Strike and they are good. You can't believe the developers are so stupid that they can't figure this out. Especially since we can give examples of other classes that work that way and they're just fine.


Arms doesn't have MS resets anymore. We do have overpower resets, however.
09/19/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Goraxe
What if Flame Shock had three charges that worked like Destruction Warlock's conflagrate?

Do you think that would work good enough?


The idea is to keep us from being a multidot spec, which is totally understandable. The problem is that with the current iteration, our ability to target swap is TERRIBLE. By removing the requirement for FlameShock to be on a target for the LvB crit, allows us to toss those out freely. And there is still plenty of incentive to maintain FlameShock because of the raw damage along with the proc chance for Lava Surge. Unfortunately they removed this in beta and claimed "ele needs a rework" and here we are. A very minor mechanical tuning, a few new talents, and they think this is a rework. It's lazy is what it is.
Maybe I am looking at this wrong, and someone can enlighten me. But when people say these changes address none of our issues, I get confused.

These are my issues in m+ and raiding:

Flame Shock Spreading/Target swapping (I see these as linked)
2/3 Target DPS. Either Cleave or spread out mobs
Movement
ST damage being sink or swim, based on ES
Lack of interaction in our spells, giving a low skill cap to our rotation

Those are the things I worry the most about right now. They have, more or less, flat out said they do not want elemental to be a movement spec. While I don't like that, I will atleast acknowledge they said that and so I did not expect anything in that area.

In 2/3 Target Cleave, I typically follow my normal ST rotation (with maybe replacing LB with CL), but add in EQs. With LvB buffing EQ, doesn't this make our 2/3 Target Cleave situation better than what it was before?

While we all want the CD of FS to go away, this at least gives us 2 different options for dealing with it:
1) We can switch targets without losing dps in a window (that being FS being 2 seconds or less on CD)
2) We can use ES to assist in spreading FS (situations where we have multiple targets not stacked)
Is this ideal? No. Is the situation better than what it was before?

With a greater emphasis on LB, our damage will be smoother over all. Yes, its a filler spell. Filler spells can still be useful. I hated the feeling that I was doing complete garbage DPS just waiting for the MS for an ES.

The new talents definitely give interaction between our spells. Which is something we specifically ask for.

That being said, I can't see this as anything but a positive step going forward, and I am waiting for numbers tuning/seeing it in play before I make my next decision.

But if I am missing something, please let me know.
Can we take a vote on the Earthen Rage talent so we can just scrap it? I mean the animation is cool and all, but if you have to move a talent around for the 5th time to try and make a class take it......it probably means the talent shouldn't be there anymore....
09/19/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Gidgets
1) you aren't invited to groups because of your echo chamber !@#$%ing. When all anyone hears on forums or anywhere is "Our class is complete ^-*! and not viable" .. guess what happens when you apply for a group.


I always make sure to write "Our class is complete ^-*! and not viable" everytime in the description box when signing up for a group. For some reason it doesn't work though.

I have a friend who is maining ele this expansion and hes the top or near the top every raid pull on similarly geared players.


Congratulations, you're all trash players minus the ele.

Truthfully I was getting invites before the AMA, doing "okay" damage, somewhat close to top in pugs (but pugs are pugs), but now no one wants me, as its now not just Shamans perception we're bad.
Arms doesn't have MS resets anymore. We do have overpower resets, however.


Okay, I'm pretty sure it worked that way for all of Legion, which is the point that it's been done before.

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