M'uru and Blood Elves theology

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Im surprised that M'uru's sacrifice hasn't become a RP element to some blood elves.

From a lore perspective M'uru as a suffering messiah who gave its life to redeem blood elves is a profound concept.
I imagine part of that may have something to do some people's perception of the situation. Plenty of people, myself included, seemed to prefer when the Blood Elves were thought to be stealing from M'uru for their own gain. That the detail wasn't particularly focused on in game may also be a factor.

Most of all though I just don't think many are interpreting the situation in quite that way; of course I could be wrong.
Blood elves enslaved the light then got a slap on the wrists and now pretend they are oh so pious. There is no reverence there.
The Holy Light is still really a foreign religion to Blood Elves. Thalassian culture revered Belore as a principle of order - they knew the planets orbit the sun, the highborne were sophisticated astronomers. Their city was named Silvermoon because they know that the moons shine by reflected sunlight, and their culture was intended to reflect the celestial order of the heavens.

Order, reason, discipline. I think that a Belore-based religion would be non-theistic (the High Elves never revered the Sun as a deity), a philosophy of right governance and social obligation somewhat akin to Confucianism, which was entirely pragmatic.

The Blood Elves drew power from M'uru because they were dying without it, and because at that time they believed still in the leadership of House Sunstrider. Once Kael'thas openly sided with Kil'jaeden and the Legion, the Blood Elves moved to overthrow him, starting with the Scryers in Outland.

When we fought for the Sunwell Plateau, there was no expectation of the Sunwell being rekindled. We did it to stop Kil'jaeden. Liandrin's redemption was genuine.

Also, can we please remember that it was a Paladin of the Silver Hand who defiled the Sunwell to resurrect Kel'thuzad in the first place? Where were his order of goodness and light when the High Elves were being massacred? I'll wait.
09/08/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Yanasa
Blood elves enslaved the light then got a slap on the wrists and now pretend they are oh so pious. There is no reverence there.


A hundred times this, if Velen had a spine he wouldn't have restored the sunwell after all that was done to them.

09/10/2018 06:29 AMPosted by Tymberlea
When we fought for the Sunwell Plateau, there was no expectation of the Sunwell being rekindled. We did it to stop Kil'jaeden. Liandrin's redemption was genuine.

Also, can we please remember that it was a Paladin of the Silver Hand who defiled the Sunwell to resurrect Kel'thuzad in the first place? Where were his order of goodness and light when the High Elves were being massacred? I'll wait.


Arthas was a death knight when it happened, also the silver hand (and lordaeron as a whole) was decimated at that point- so there wasnt much they could have done.

Also, didn't king Anastarian pull out of the Alliance before W3 rolls around? Where were the High Elves when Lordaeron was being massacred? I'll wait.
A hundred times this, if Velen had a spine he wouldn't have restored the sunwell after all that was done to them.


Velen probably looked at the elves and decided that their actions were made in desperation and chose not to condemn them all to death when he could both save them and offer redemption.

The elves and the Draeni are rather similar in story, both had their home and way of lives shattered. Each had a leader to chart a path from it, if Velen had taken his people and gone to conquer each world they went to instead of being refugees, they could have wound up with the same scenario.

People do terrible things when pushed to survive, the test is if you can look at what you are doing and walk away from it, even if that means walking back into uncertainty. The Elves did this.
09/10/2018 12:19 PMPosted by Rayha
A hundred times this, if Velen had a spine he wouldn't have restored the sunwell after all that was done to them.


Velen probably looked at the elves and decided that their actions were made in desperation and chose not to condemn them all to death when he could both save them and offer redemption.

The elves and the Draeni are rather similar in story, both had their home and way of lives shattered. Each had a leader to chart a path from it, if Velen had taken his people and gone to conquer each world they went to instead of being refugees, they could have wound up with the same scenario.

People do terrible things when pushed to survive, the test is if you can look at what you are doing and walk away from it, even if that means walking back into uncertainty. The Elves did this.


>pulled out of the alliance, left Lordaeron to fend for itself, Lordaeron is massacred
>crash a ship, killing who knows how many draenei, kidnap naaru
>raid uther's tomb
>slave M'uru until it turns to the void
>only seek redemption after Kael'thas betrayed the elves and stole M'uru, so that was literally their only choice
>get handed forgiveness and power at the same time

One of those things was not like the others.

To be fair, Liadrin and the blood knights did seemed to return the good ol DnD paladin thing and helped out the AU draenei.

But honestly, no light-wielder should be following sylvanas after she plagued her own troops and turned them undead.

Listen, there is a good chance that the draenei islands get attacked by the horde this expac like the nelf lands did- if liadrin and her blood knights actually speak against killing the draenei to a man or save them from that (when its not convinient or pragmatic to do so) and return the favor Velen did to them, then I will make a post where I accept that the blood knight redemption was genuine- I can admit when im wrong
Well first off the elves and the alliance only ever had a tenuous partnership to begin with. Lorderon didn't fall because the elves were not there to stop it nor did Silvermoon fall because the the humans never came. Lorderon fell from within by surprise, and Silvermoon fell after from yet another surprise attack, but regardless of that leaving the alliance is hardly a black mark in and of its self.

My main point was that Velen could have seen an alternate fate for his people in the elves, or he could have seen there effort to step away from their evil leader.
Had Velen lead them to be conquerors instead of refugees they could have very easily gone down the same path.

And as to getting handed forgiveness you are very thoroughly underestimating the difficulty that is turning from a sure path to one of uncertainty.

The elves followed Kael because he was a beloved leader who cared for them, and when their whole population and way of life is shattered he offered them a path where there was none to begin with. When that path became dark it was the option to stay on it or turn away and go back to a place where everything was unsure.

Humans in RL resort to stealing and murder when they are starving why should elves be any different. Turning away from something that is safe, even when you know its wrong is a very difficult thing to do.

If anything its the humans that lack an appreciation for the light they are so freely given as they have never had to earn any of it.
Okay, first of all, im not "thoroughly underestimating the difficulty that is turning from a sure path to one of uncertainty." Nor it was much of an effort to step away from their evil leader.

The blood knights literally had no choice but come to A'dal, if they didn't then the legion would have crossed into the world and destroyed Quel'thalas. So, their redemption wasn't a matter of choice/willpower but rather of circumstance

And yes, humans irl also steal or kill when we are desperate, but the law punishes them if they are catched- not rewarded. Their sentences are lessened if they try to make amends tho, which I recognize the belves did.

Also, the humans in wow DO in fact appreciate the light. In Lordaeron's darkest hour they doubled down on their faith, created light's hope chapel and defended it against impossible odds time and again- and the light rewarded them with miracles.

Listen, the horde is now going down a path that values expedience and pragmatism over morals and honor- If liadrin sticks to her guns when its not convenient to do so I will admit that i was wrong and that the redemption was genuine.

If.
Also, I'd like to apologize to OP for derailing the thread.
The easy choice would have been to stay on their path and join the legion or become something dark but sperate, calling their choice to do the right thing "conveniant" takes nothing away from the fact that they still made the choice to do the right thing when they could have just as easily continued as they were without repercussions from the other races as they would be dead or enslaved.

They chose to abandon Kael around the terokkar forest stage of questing in BC, not as Kael is summoning Kil'jaeden at the end. That choice along with their efforts to stop Kael/Illidan/Kil'jaeden are what earn them their redemption.

There is no denying what they did was wrong, that's why it requires redemption. But to just hand wave it away when the choice was one that was not easy to make because you view it as "conveniant" is indeed undervaluing the gravity of what lead them to do those things in the first place.

If your home city was destroyed and 90% of your people were now dead, not just your friends and family but really anyone you may have conceivably talked to your whole life, your allies have abandoned you and on top of it all you find out you are fatally addicted to one of the worse drugs. What would you do to survive?
how far would you take it? And when it took you to a dark place would you be willing to go back to that point of unkown.

To the point of serving Sylvanis, you might have a point if the alliance didn't work along side deathknights that are known to do the same thing.

To the OP while not really represented in game i would be very surprised if there was not some day of memorial set aside for Mu'ru, but actual worship probably not. The only race that really reveres the Naru as more than just powerful beings of light are the Draenei. there are larger forces to be perceived as a deity than what amounts to powerful "light elementals"
Excepts DKs have been non existant from the Alliance ever since Cata and even then they dont have anything as powerful as the plague.

(If you're talking about the dk class campaign then thats on bolvar strong arming us into doing that under the threat of deploying the scourge, which we also atoned for later. And even then we tried diplomacy and restraint first in about half those quests- only killing everything later)

Also there is a huge difference between the Alliance having some darker members in it and the Horde being led by their own dark members. For real, Anduin's bones hurt whenever a bad deed is done while Sylvanas has her "kill hope" thing and it shows, the Alliance is on a lawful good overdrive and the horde is getting darker by the quest
The current war has nothing to do with whether or not the elves deserved their "redemption" I could go on and on about how the horde is justified in its reasons for waging it but that is a topic for the many other threads out there.

Your original remark was that the elves simply put up a case of oops my bad and got forgiven and that is simply not the case.

They did bad things in the name of survival and turned away from those things and worked to stop the people they had been following without expecting a reward. And in keeping with what Mu'ru would have wanted (even while enslaved and tormented, the naru felt only sadness for them, not anger) Velen chose to give them redemption for their earnest efforts to set things right.

And even now many years later the bloodknights still have the light answer their call when they ask for it. Since they have not become basically light wielding mages they clearly can't be doing things that wrong.
09/10/2018 06:29 AMPosted by Tymberlea

Also, can we please remember that it was a Paladin of the Silver Hand who defiled the Sunwell to resurrect Kel'thuzad in the first place? Where were his order of goodness and light when the High Elves were being massacred? I'll wait.


Except that he wasn't, and the Silver Hand weren't in existence at that time, having been disbanded by order of Arthas at Stratholme. By the time Arthas marched on Quel'thelas, he was a Death Knight serving the original Lich King.
09/11/2018 04:11 PMPosted by Drahliana
the Silver Hand weren't in existence at that time,
Yes they were. The Silver Hand fought against the Scourge in Lordaeron under the new leadership of Lord Commander Saidan Dathrohan and Highlord Alexandros Mograine, wielding the Ashbringer at the time, and fought them across the Plaguelands. The Silver Hand wouldn't be disbanded for the first time until well after the Third War.

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