List of specs in serious need of help

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Not sure why OP mentions Frost Mages as needing attention. Every raid or Mythic I do, they kill it on the dps meters and in arenas and pvp, they are amazing. I have a frost mage and do very well with him.


As I understand it their single target is somewhat low. They’re propped up in Uldir and M+ by their superb AoE. Balance is in a similar situation but to a greater degree.
09/10/2018 07:47 AMPosted by Sybille

Frost is one of the better performing specs right now. It just suffers from gaps in playstyle that become more and more noticeable the lower a player’s haste.


The problem with Frost is that Ion in all his great wisdom, tacked the class fantasy onto DK as slow moving, powerful and hard hitting. The problem is that they got the slow moving right, they didn't get the hard hitting part.

DKs should be the hardest hitting class in the game. They aren't and so because of their lack of mobility, they take a dive in DPS in mobile fights and get kited to death in pvp. They do good dps when they can stick to a target. They should do the #1 dps when on a target.

Also having low haste in this xpac killed my desire to play my frost DK. Too much down time.
09/10/2018 07:30 AMPosted by Brún
AoE is the big reason Feral is in such a dire position. I know Ion thinks single target should be our specialty but to be honest that just doesn’t work with PvE design in 2018. We need competent AoE in a raid with so many add fights.


What boggles my mind is how we can go from being fine at the end of Legion to what is is now. It's like every feral should be on suicide watch or something.
09/10/2018 08:02 AMPosted by Ulrok
The problem with Frost is that Ion in all his great wisdom, tacked the class fantasy onto DK as slow moving, powerful and hard hitting. The problem is that they got the slow moving right, they didn't get the hard hitting part.


Frost dk is in a good spot damage wise. Saying otherwise is just not being objective. They're 95.43% of the dps of the top dps spec which we already know is getting a flat 5% nerf and additional damage nerfs on top of that due to trait changes.
I do agree prot warriors really need some buffs to bring us up to par with some of the other tanks.
09/10/2018 08:10 AMPosted by Nyhlia
09/10/2018 08:02 AMPosted by Ulrok
The problem with Frost is that Ion in all his great wisdom, tacked the class fantasy onto DK as slow moving, powerful and hard hitting. The problem is that they got the slow moving right, they didn't get the hard hitting part.


Frost dk is in a good spot damage wise. Saying otherwise is just not being objective. They're 95.43% of the dps of the top dps spec which we already know is getting a flat 5% nerf and additional damage nerfs on top of that due to trait changes.


I'm not saying they aren't in a good spot dps wise. I am saying they should be at the top of that spot. The rest of the tool kit for frost doesn't enable it very well to be able to do that DPS on mobile fights. I can easily out DPS frost on my arms warrior and I have mobility.

In PvP frost has about disappeared. That wasn't the case the last two xpacs where you saw a lot of frost DKs.
That's because for the last 2 expacs frost has been crazy good in pvp.

I get that all frost brings is damage but the spec is so simple and easy I don't think it should be performing better than say a feral.
09/10/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Littlegreen
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19

Notice the top 4 specs are the ones receiving nerfs, and the bottom 5 are the ones receiving buffs.


5% to Demonology buff won't be anywhere near enough. The spec needs around 16% just to get it to mid level comparison to the rest. Even with an across-the-board buff like that, the mechanics of the spec will still make it hard to compete due to how Uldir is set up. Lets also not forget that the nerf to T20 Demo has made the 5% buff a net loss. So demo will be doing worse than it is now due to this.

Damage from Implosion needs to be increased quite a bit due to such a high cost to make it work.

It's time for affliction to take a back seat for a change. Let Demo take the limelight!
09/10/2018 08:17 AMPosted by Ulrok
I'm not saying they aren't in a good spot dps wise. I am saying they should be at the top of that spot. The rest of the tool kit for frost doesn't enable it very well to be able to do that DPS on mobile fights. I can easily out DPS frost on my arms warrior and I have mobility.


Wrong thread to qq about that. Besides, no one cares if you think your spec should be the #1 damage. Every biased tool says that.

09/10/2018 08:17 AMPosted by Ulrok
In PvP frost has about disappeared. That wasn't the case the last two xpacs where you saw a lot of frost DKs.


The thread isn't about PvP. In fact the OP explicitly stated and bolded in his initial post:

09/09/2018 07:01 PMPosted by Hutta
This is for raiding.
09/10/2018 08:20 AMPosted by Antarris
That's because for the last 2 expacs frost has been crazy good in pvp.

I get that all frost brings is damage but the spec is so simple and easy I don't think it should be performing better than say a feral.


All specs are simple now. Its World of mash your keyboard. I would argue that my mage is as simple as my frost DK. I get it that feral is in a bad place, not sure i would agree that feral should out perform frost in DPS though.
09/10/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Nyhlia
09/10/2018 08:17 AMPosted by Ulrok
I'm not saying they aren't in a good spot dps wise. I am saying they should be at the top of that spot. The rest of the tool kit for frost doesn't enable it very well to be able to do that DPS on mobile fights. I can easily out DPS frost on my arms warrior and I have mobility.


Wrong thread to qq about that. Besides, no one cares if you think your spec should be the #1 damage. Every biased tool says that.

09/10/2018 08:17 AMPosted by Ulrok
In PvP frost has about disappeared. That wasn't the case the last two xpacs where you saw a lot of frost DKs.


The thread isn't about PvP. In fact the OP explicitly stated and bolded in his initial post:

09/09/2018 07:01 PMPosted by Hutta
This is for raiding.


Ah, the internet, where reading comprehension and opinions hit the extreme....
Youve listed 3/4 of the specs in the game, thats not only unrealistic but also false.

I have played Frost mage, i dont see the problem. Ive also played Enhance Shaman, also dont see a problem. Just becasue something isnt topping meters doesnt make it bad.

The issue is outliers. What needs to be brought back to the pack and what needs to be elevated.

The by far worst under tuned spec ive seen is Ele Shaman, its too slow and hits like a wet noodle. MM hunter is broken, slow, boring as hades, and clunky and feels terrible, can can put up numbers.
I wonder if this list would be better suited if it was split into two different categories? Maybe one for classes that are in need to number tuning and another for classes in need of a hard re-work because the way they play is just garbo. I'm also sure there are sadly some that fit into both categories but I feel like a spec needing a re-work would have more agency then a number tuneup.
09/10/2018 08:30 AMPosted by Ulrok
Ah, the internet, where reading comprehension and opinions hit the extreme....


Yep. Might want to look at the thread title, read the OP over again, and go make your own thread where you can complain that even though frost is pulling 4.5% less dps than the very top spec that's getting nerfed more than that, that it needs massive buffs. I'm sure it'll be a hit!
09/10/2018 08:41 AMPosted by Nyhlia
09/10/2018 08:30 AMPosted by Ulrok
Ah, the internet, where reading comprehension and opinions hit the extreme....


Yep. Might want to look at the thread title, read the OP over again, and go make your own thread where you can complain that even though frost is pulling 4.5% less dps than the very top spec that's getting nerfed more than that, that it needs massive buffs. I'm sure it'll be a hit!


Or you could actually be productive in the discussion here and realize that we are all talking about specs needing some changes and that not one person has been complaining.

Also note that DPS in raiding goes beyond the big numbers that show up when you hit a boss. Its the entire tool set. So when talking about tweaking classes for raiding, it impacts the other areas of the game also.

But hey keep quoting your sims as cannon cause Blizzard really cares about those...
09/10/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Ulrok
Here are the specs that I believe are in critical need of help from my own experience

Fire Mage
Elemental Shaman
Resto Shaman
Prot Warrior
Demonology Locks
Shadow Priest

Not sure why OP mentions Frost Mages as needing attention. Every raid or Mythic I do, they kill it on the dps meters and in arenas and pvp, they are amazing. I have a frost mage and do very well with him.


DPS aka burst on frost mage is fine maybe even a bit to much, dps doesn't =/= damage throughput though. Outside of aoe heavy fights frost mage throughput is ok.

That said i only really have issues not out damaging classes who are seeing nerfs or likely will. BM hunter, rogue, arms and sometimes a good lock as examples. Not to bad and i suspect frost will move up a few notches as a result.
I definitely wouldn't put frost or even arcane in the same level of needing help as fire though o_o
09/10/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Zappigurl
I wonder if this list would be better suited if it was split into two different categories? Maybe one for classes that are in need to number tuning and another for classes in need of a hard re-work because the way they play is just garbo. I'm also sure there are sadly some that fit into both categories but I feel like a spec needing a re-work would have more agency then a number tuneup.


Yeah, this.
Some or under tuned, some are clunky, very few (looking at you ele Shaman) are both.
09/10/2018 06:51 AMPosted by Roxxùs
I dont forsee the 6% damage increase to help fire. It will likely stay at the bottom due to its poor requirement of high amounts of crit in order to use its abilities.


It's not the crit that's the problem for fire. Not being able to use Flame on and phoenix flames at the same time is what's hurting us.

Yeah, 45% crit is pretty low for a fire mage, but with azorite gear, and a proc trinket, and the weapon enchant, you can pretty much negate having such low crit.

Your crit will float up and down during fights based on what is proccing. The real problem is not having access to Phoenix flames when you take flame on. The way the spec was designed to play was you do your normal rotation, and only keeping one charge of Phoenix flame on CD at a time. Then when Combustion's off cooldown you pop it and use all 3 charges of phoenix flame and your Fire blasts. Then you sort of just go back to your normal rotation. With 3 charges of fireblast from flame on, and the reduced recharge rate, your fire blasts will repopulate pretty quick, while fishing for heating up procs.

The way it is now is just stupid, because if you take phoneix flames, you basically do quick little burst session, and then you completely run out of gas. 2 charges of fireblast recharging slowly will make you start wasting heating up procs. Phoneix flames should really only be used during burst and aoe, but now you have to try to use it in your normal rotation, and it just doesn't work...

And then if you take flame on, you are just doing your rotation nonstop. Then the lower crit values start to annoy you, because flame blast will fill up entirely, and you don't have phoenix flames to use for a quick pyro when your fireblast charges are almost full. And then during combustion, you're still hardcasting scorch, which just feels terrible, so you really do absolutely nothing different during combustion vs when you're doing your normal rotation. It all feels really really clunkly like this.

If they separated Flame on talent, and phoenix flame talent, it would increase and make our dps much more consistant. But we still wouldn't jump up the rankings. They just didn't look at how Fire Mage was designed to play when they took away Artifact Weapons. Someone who has never played the class probably "updated" the class for BFA, and not an ounce of attention was given after that. They probably figured they gave all the tools back to fire, and they could just buff damage as necessary with balance patches... But it's bull!@#$ like this.
I agree with the majority of specs on this list. It really is a shame that there are so many specs, and even entire classes, that are in shambles now. Blizzard has really missed the mark. Although tuning will help a lot of the specs perform, some are fundamentally broken and just play awful.

From the standpoint of a Shaman main, I think the entire class needs a rework. Blizzard has lost sight of where we need to go, and we are so far off the rails now that I don't know if we can come back. I've never considered re-rolling as much as I am now.

Of all three specs, Enhance is probably the most enjoyable, but the Whack-A-Mole/Slot machine playstyle only goes so far. Elemental is slow and unrewarding and I can't stand to play it anymore. My mainspec, Resto, is a shadow of what it was is Legion. It's not even the same spec anymore. It feels and performs awful. The stacked healing is now a joke. Any other AoE healing doesn't even come close to what other healers are capable of. If Blizzard doesn't fix Resto, I'll voluntarilly sit myself from Mythic progression. What a joke.
09/10/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Ulrok
Or you could actually be productive in the discussion here and realize that we are all talking about specs needing some changes and that not one person has been complaining.

Also note that DPS in raiding goes beyond the big numbers that show up when you hit a boss. Its the entire tool set. So when talking about tweaking classes for raiding, it impacts the other areas of the game also.

But hey keep quoting your sims as cannon cause Blizzard really cares about those...


I am being productive. You're trying to derail the discussion. Frost DK isn't 'seriously in need of help' in raiding. It's nowhere near that. It's solidly in the upper echelon by a large margin and after tomorrow is looking great. It's hilarious you think it even merits mentioning in a thread focused on specs that are legitimately doing poorly like fire, demo, shadow, and feral. It's 12 spots above (11.2% higher performance) than the best of those right now.

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