Tank DH suck

Demon Hunter
I was swapped out on H Fetid for pali tank earlier. Was constantly getting taken down to 20% with thrash with spikes up. Could spike often enough so eventually just too stressful on healers and dead.

I remember VDH being a lot better tanks in Legion, what happened? I didn't really pay attention to changes/patch notes. Self healing doesn't feel as effective as it used to I think?
I think heroic fetid is a pretty extreme example of why DH isnt the best. Although I will likely just use my druid for that boss anyways.

There are ways to bunker down as DH which is nice but those builds and ways of doing it certainly lean to doing lower dps and being alot more 1button spam type of builds.

I actually look forward to next week (if not this week) when this character is geared enough for me to try the fetid fight. While the brewmaster in my guild will still take the big hits I think it is certainly possible to build for the primary target portion of the fight... maybe.

Granted I haven't understood what people are complaining about yet. I dinged 120 in the wee hours Sunday morning and did my first mythic as motherload at 305. My first plus was 335. Didnt seem to really have issues staying up (mainly druid heals in the mid 330s).
Fetid Devourer is absolutely the worst I feel for VDH's toolkit, especially if you're stuck as the off-tank. The cleave comes too fast to have demon spikes up for everything which makes it an absolute mess.
Isn't Vengeance one of the best Mythic tanks though? On my priest I never have an issue healing them. One of my favorite tanks to run with next to Blood DKs. I actually hate how Paladins play, some feel super squishy to heal.
09/11/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Narcd
Isn't Vengeance one of the best Mythic tanks though? On my priest I never have an issue healing them. One of my favorite tanks to run with next to Blood DKs. I actually hate how Paladins play, some feel super squishy to heal.


Vengence is better in dungeons than raids, for raiding we could use some small defensive buffs, but i dont think they have done tank balancing yet or maybe they think all tanks are in a good position.

As for Fetid, i dont know how many have played since that boss was nerfed by 33%
VDH deserved to have its Empowered Wards kept too.
WTF?
A fatter Blood got to keep their anti magic shell, like the most powerful magic mitigation ability, during the expansion in which Blizzard say they want tank with lesser self-reliance, and magic dmg being more scary.

Also, dumbest mastery ever.

09/11/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Narcd
Isn't Vengeance one of the best Mythic tanks though? On my priest I never have an issue healing them. One of my favorite tanks to run with next to Blood DKs. I actually hate how Paladins play, some feel super squishy to heal.


Dude, the thing that is clear, is that whatever advantage VDH has in Mythic+, is not even close to the weaknesses they have in being a viable tank for Raiding.
You get some sort of edge with your AoE silence sigil and fear sigil, your weaker and more awkward Gorefiend's Grasp, and you get infernal strike to kite. But you need slows and stuns to kite around high M+ keys.

In raids atm, people laugh at VDHs. Healers hate healing VDHs. It is all anecdotal ofc, but i never saw forum posts of healers complaining about other tanks this expansion, except for VDH.
How did I end up here? Took a wrong turn...

You, uhh... keep sacrificin' everything and all that!

Closes door behind her
09/09/2018 05:17 AMPosted by Khorlamahr
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Haha no. We get to enjoy another patch of being slapped around by bosses in Uldir.


I wish, my guild told me they would not be using a DH for a tank ever in this xpac so raiding is out for me.
I don't know why this has to be repeatedly mentioned, but with regards to which tanks are more powerful, and the balance between them, it does not matter until you reach mythic difficulty. If you are in a guild that is not even clearing Normal, and they're using class rankings for mythic difficulty raids, I would immediately gquit unless I had some real good friends in that guild.

Tanks, DPS, and Healers are mostly at a point where the differences in balance do not outweigh the difference in player ability until you reach very high levels of performance - I'm talking about guilds/groups that are competing for server/world first clears. If you are not a member of that very small community, the rankings do not matter at all. If someone else is massively out-performing you in normal or heroic encounters, it is because they either have better gear, or a better grasp of how to play their character.
We are not even close to the best tanks in a raiding environment, HOWEVER. We can absolutely get the job done. If you can't deal with H Fetid, that's on you.

A buff to wards (20% physical reduction/10% magic reduction would be fantastic) and/or lowering the recharge of DS to around 14-16 seconds would go a long way but we can get it done.

Learn to play a more defensive playstyle when needed. If you need to just smooth out damage, take FtD and Void Reaver.
09/11/2018 02:42 PMPosted by Uncleslam
We are not even close to the best tanks in a raiding environment, HOWEVER. We can absolutely get the job done. If you can't deal with H Fetid, that's on you.

A buff to wards (20% physical reduction/10% magic reduction would be fantastic) and/or lowering the recharge of DS to around 14-16 seconds would go a long way but we can get it done.

Learn to play a more defensive playstyle when needed. If you need to just smooth out damage, take FtD and Void Reaver.


It isnt remotely fun to shear spam and run felblade for turtle build.

This is legion all over again, ursoc, krosus , star augur, spellblade and others say hi, enjoy being benched.
09/11/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Vengeta
09/11/2018 02:42 PMPosted by Uncleslam
We are not even close to the best tanks in a raiding environment, HOWEVER. We can absolutely get the job done. If you can't deal with H Fetid, that's on you.

A buff to wards (20% physical reduction/10% magic reduction would be fantastic) and/or lowering the recharge of DS to around 14-16 seconds would go a long way but we can get it done.

Learn to play a more defensive playstyle when needed. If you need to just smooth out damage, take FtD and Void Reaver.


It isnt remotely fun to shear spam and run felblade for turtle build.

This is legion all over again, ursoc, krosus , star augur, spellblade and others say hi, enjoy being benched.


Felblade is garbage in any build. Pain is barely useful for us. Not that I enjoy(nor have I needed) the turtle build which consists of casting Shear OVER and OVER to auto-consume fragments for Feed the Demon.

Tank balance really is much better than it was throughout most of legion. If you know how to play your spec, you can tank all content just fine as Veng.
Imo, one of the main issues is that been only have 1 real CD, Metamorphosis, that only gives armor and health.

Firey Brand probably should be reworked now that it doesn't provide healing or damage increase.

Is any other tank massively dependant on Azerite traits? I couldn't imagine not having Infernal Armor.
I am reserving my full judgement for heroic uldir this weekend.

But I can say if I could make just 2 changes to the spec they would be...

1. Feed the demon baseline and demon spikes no longer reducing their CD based on haste.

And

2. Burning alive changed to something like this: When your immolation aura hits a target with fiery brand on it then fiery brand spreads to all other targets hit by immolation aura.

I know wishlists in the forums are usually a bad thing but from what I have seen of the spec so far I think these 2 changes would reward smart play and allow us to more easily deal with the situations that really really hurt us.
09/12/2018 05:41 AMPosted by Flamaßlanca
1. Feed the demon baseline and demon spikes no longer reducing their CD based on haste.


That would be categorically worse than what we have right now, since Feed the Demon currently lets Demon Spikes double-dip on haste scaling (more haste = more souls per minute). So you'd be replacing one form of haste scaling with another less reliable one and completely removing the ability to talent into the double-dipping.

What Vengeance needs is for Soul Cleave to not suck as hard, which would make Spirit Bomb less dominant of a replacement for it. In addition:

  • Lower the base CD of Demon Spikes and/or buff our passive damage reduction. One of the two is mandatory for DHs to compete.
  • Fracture baseline (same reasoning as Boulderfist being made baseline for Enh during Legion, there's no chance for a spammable generator to compete with a superior short-CD charge one with how many abilities we have available).
  • Replace Fracture with either Painbringer (X% DR for Y seconds when you consume a Soul Fragment, with a stack cap and each stack having independent uration) for additional smoothing, or some variation on Flaming Soul (Immolation Aura extends the duration or reduces the CD of Fiery Brand) to buff our mid-CD mitigation cooldown. Both of these would contrast strongly with the other two talents on that row, one of which buffs Meta and the other buffs Demon Spikes.
  • Bonus alternative option: remove Demon Spikes (along with a lower baseline CD, above) and put in *both*, so we have a Meta talent, a Fiery Brand talent, and a smoothing talent on that row.
  • A general buff to Metamorphosis (like a flat DR), which would indirectly buff Gluttony. This would also give us a valid mitigation CD against multi-target magic damage, something that's currently a glaring hole in our cooldown set.
  • [li]Add a Demonic-like effect to Fel Devastation, letting it grant you Meta for the duration of the breath plus 5-8 seconds afterwords, positioning it as both a burst healing and burst mitigation ability.


Do that, and we'd be in a good spot. You'd have the option of specing for some additional self-healing and an alternative bit-more-potent non-conal AoE consumer via Spirit Bomb, additional semi-random mitigation following a Soul Cleave via Gluttony, or additional on-demand burst healing and mitigation via Fel Devastation. Our 104 talent tier would also have valid options for specing, since none of them would have significant DPS advantages and all of them would improve our mitigation via differing means.

That all said, I do like your recommended change to Burning Alive:

09/12/2018 05:41 AMPosted by Flamaßlanca
2. Burning alive changed to something like this: When your immolation aura hits a target with fiery brand on it then fiery brand spreads to all other targets hit by immolation aura.


That would make the talent a lot stronger in AoE at least. Still has the issue of Burning Alive being basically useless outside of AoE situations, though.
09/08/2018 04:55 PMPosted by Joykiller
I don't have a problem tanking raids if you do then you're doing something wrong.

4 normal bosses, you've sure got the inside info no other vengeance dh tanks do.

I've done 4 normal bosses too, maybe I should tell people how to heal on monk when they do mythic!
im in the business that prot pally is, and always will be, the best tank.

people do better and more with BDK because reasons, but really pally has the most powerful and full kit.
09/12/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Worldwarczar
im in the business that prot pally is, and always will be, the best tank.

people do better and more with BDK because reasons, but really pally has the most powerful and full kit.

Kit means essentially nothing in raid, with a few minor exceptions. Bears were gods for most of last expansion with zero kit besides roar, and brewmasters are probably the best raid tank right now also with functionally zero kit.

You might be right for M+, although again only certain kit is relevant in certain circumstances.
09/09/2018 05:15 AMPosted by Maluroth
scrubs

I loved that show! Eeeeeeeeeeeagle!
28% armor class


What's your THAC0 ????
09/10/2018 10:49 PMPosted by Flamaßlanca
I think heroic fetid is a pretty extreme example of why DH isnt the best. Although I will likely just use my druid for that boss anyways.

There are ways to bunker down as DH which is nice but those builds and ways of doing it certainly lean to doing lower dps and being alot more 1button spam type of builds.

I actually look forward to next week (if not this week) when this character is geared enough for me to try the fetid fight. While the brewmaster in my guild will still take the big hits I think it is certainly possible to build for the primary target portion of the fight... maybe.

Granted I haven't understood what people are complaining about yet. I dinged 120 in the wee hours Sunday morning and did my first mythic as motherload at 305. My first plus was 335. Didnt seem to really have issues staying up (mainly druid heals in the mid 330s).


I was MTing H Fetid in a pug on Monday at ilvl 340. It was rough, but manageable. Each melee was about 70k without demon spikes up. The biggest issue then was there was no healer dedicated to tanks, besides some HoTs, and people were just taking too much dmg from other mechanics so healers were spread thin.

I debated Feed the Demon for more uptime on Demon Spikes, but Shear just feels really bad. It just doesn't generate enough Pain to Cleave as often as you need to. Which defeated the whole point of reducing DS CD based on souls absorbed.

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