Terrain Symmetry in BGs

Battlegrounds
The TLDR takeaway for people who find reading hard: It is beyond arrogant to assume you can balance two sides in an asymmetrical battleground.

I remember, back in vanilla, playing Alterac Valley (both factions; always been a double agent), thinking:

Why. In the holy hell. Is this battleground. Not. Symmetrical.

A bazillion years later, stars have died, dynasties have risen and fallen, and I still wonder the same thing.

Even in non-rated, even in a casual setting, the only real way to ensure a level playing field is to literally ensure there's a level playing field. Meaning that AV, Isle of Conquest, and all BGs (except for those that deliberately involve switching between attacker and defender teams) should have symmetrical terrain.

There is MORE than enough unique Alliance and Horde-themed structures to keep flavor (think the Warsong Gulch bases) while ensuring that both sides of the field are equal.

I remember the debacle behind the Horde starting point in AV. Even today, I see a lot of complaints about Horde always winning AV and Alliance always winning IoC. Valid complaints? Maybe, maybe not, but regardless, there's no good reason for either BG, for any BG that isn't like SotA, to not be symmetrical.

Fighting game devs with loads and loads of experience cannot create an asymmetrical game where different characters are perfectly balanced. However, a) those games feature MANY selectable characters, not just two, allowing for a meta-balance to emerge, and 2) those games let people play mirror matches regardless.

It is extremely arrogant for Blizzard to think they can create an asymmetrical battleground where both sides are on equal footing. Always has been, always will be. AV, IoC, and other BGs are not old content either: they scale to the level cap and have new wrinkles introduced every new expansion. Stop holding them back by not reworking them to be actual, figurative, and literal level playing fields.
WIT All u complain u shood jus quit game
This is why any halfway decent game has either symmetrical maps or has the teams switch sides for two halves.
09/12/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Rdord
This is why any halfway decent game has either symmetrical maps or has the teams switch sides for two halves.


Yup. Blizz devs feel themselves capable of tackling a task noone has done before, on account of it being impossible.

09/12/2018 09:55 AMPosted by Badjoe
WIT All u complain u shood jus quit game


No. But thank you for the bump.
I've always wondered why the bgs weren't more symmetrical including the terrain. But I guess we would complain about bgs being too bland if it were perfectly symmetrical. It's kept me playing this long. I guess they made the right choice.
09/12/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Rdord
This is why any halfway decent game has either symmetrical maps or has the teams switch sides for two halves.
Did Rdord just out himself as a Strand of the Ancient fan?
Battlegrounds should be asymmetric, just like the world. Artificially symmetric maps are unrealistic, boring, and excessively emphasize gear.

Here's an example. With correct strategy on both sides, Isle of Conquest, a basically symmetric map, devolves to a big initial slugfest in the middle that generally decides the game. With Horde getting a warfront gear advantage, this has recently made the battleground very difficult to win as Alliance.

However, we can still win Alterac Valley, because the terrain is asymmetric and complex, meaning that we can, with a good team, win by properly responding to the mindless Horde strategy.

Most of the battleground imbalances stem from issues other than the map, or in some cases, later features that Blizzard implemented without full understanding of how the map was balanced. Asymmetric maps themselves can be balanced.

Incidentally, Warsong Gulch is not symmetric. To make it symmetric, you'd have to make it east west instead of north south and display each side's map from their own perspective. Right now, Alliance have to constantly reverse the map mentally, which the Horde don't have to do,.
09/12/2018 10:48 AMPosted by Zarinfur
09/12/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Rdord
This is why any halfway decent game has either symmetrical maps or has the teams switch sides for two halves.
Did Rdord just out himself as a Strand of the Ancient fan?


Strand isn't symmetrical because of how the timers worked. They made the same mistake with Overwatch too.

Also, see TF2 for good ways to make maps symmetrical but thematically different for each side.
09/12/2018 11:09 AMPosted by Yarrow
Battlegrounds should be asymmetric, just like the world. Artificially symmetric maps are unrealistic, boring, and excessively emphasize gear.

Here's an example. With correct strategy on both sides, Isle of Conquest, a basically symmetric map, devolves to a big initial slugfest in the middle that generally decides the game. With Horde getting a warfront gear advantage, this has recently made the battleground very difficult to win as Alliance.

However, we can still win Alterac Valley, because the terrain is asymmetric and complex, meaning that we can, with a good team, win by properly responding to the mindless Horde strategy.

Most of the battleground imbalances stem from issues other than the map, or in some cases, later features that Blizzard implemented without full understanding of how the map was balanced. Asymmetric maps themselves can be balanced.

Incidentally, Warsong Gulch is not symmetric. To make it symmetric, you'd have to make it east west instead of north south and display each side's map from their own perspective. Right now, Alliance have to constantly reverse the map mentally, which the Horde don't have to do,.


So there's a lot that's completely and totally wrong here, but let's zero in on the big one: gear.

There should be no gear disparity in PvP. There should never have been. That's the other part of the even playing field equation that Blizzard constantly ignores.
Even WSG isn't properly symmetrical anymore. It's quite easy to double jump or in some cases single jump (or disengage jump, etc) over the fence at the top of the horde base, onto the top of the tunnel and down. The alliance side of the map has a much taller fence that can't be jumped over with nearly the same ease.
09/12/2018 12:58 PMPosted by Scabber
Even WSG isn't properly symmetrical anymore. It's quite easy to double jump or in some cases single jump (or disengage jump, etc) over the fence at the top of the horde base, onto the top of the tunnel and down. The alliance side of the map has a much taller fence that can't be jumped over with nearly the same ease.


Dagnabbit Blizz...
09/12/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Lemires
There should be no gear disparity in PvP. There should never have been. That's the other part of the even playing field equation that Blizzard constantly ignores.

Can't disagree with that. Blizz was on the right track with gear scaling, but then they nerfed it.
I prefer asymmetrical maps- especially AV. If played correctly (ie not with bots or people alt-tabbed) it requires a small amount of strategy depending on what side you are on. Warsong is a great map, but a really good AV is potentially the best map/time in the game.

09/12/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Lemires

There should be no gear disparity in PvP. There should never have been. That's the other part of the even playing field equation that Blizzard constantly ignores.


They have tried many different things. The last thing they tried (depending on who you talk to) almost killed pvp in the game. They aren't ignoring it, they jusy haven't found a fix yet- and appear to have given up.
09/13/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Scylvendi
Warsong is a great map, but a really good AV is potentially the best map/time in the game.

They have tried many different things. The last thing they tried (depending on who you talk to) almost killed pvp in the game. They aren't ignoring it, they jusy haven't found a fix yet- and appear to have given up.


Sup buddy! I agree with the first one. I wasn’t around for the second one. Was the no gear experiment that bad? I was always told it would be the panacea for all PvP ills.
Blizzard never did equalized gear, they did a half-baked version that made the problem worse.

FF14 has no disparity in PvP. World Cup Soccer doesn't either: Germany doesn't get to have an extra player on the field because they've won before.
09/13/2018 02:36 PMPosted by Lemires
Blizzard never did equalized gear, they did a half-baked version that made the problem worse.

FF14 has no disparity in PvP. World Cup Soccer doesn't either: Germany doesn't get to have an extra player on the field because they've won before.


Eh, don’t take my peculiar sense of humor too literally. I like playing with my virtual Barbie clothes as much as the next guy, but have zero issue with no gear pvp.

I don’t believe it would do anything to lessen complaints about pvp, because even if every class and spec were perfectly balanced no one would ever believe it.

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