Jaina and Sylvanas, is there any difference?

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09/13/2018 01:27 PMPosted by Carmageddon
09/13/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Grandblade
Jaina COULD have committed genocide, but since there is a level-headed and compassionate person beneath all the trauma, she was able to be talked down from it.


Well, she was talked down from her THIRD attempt. The first two were just foiled by Thrall.

I'm not sure how much credit you get for attempting genocide and failing. Your point that she was kind of out of her mind at the time is a much better argument.


Alright fair. If we're going to compare it, Jaina did this a very short while after Theramore was nuked. Sylvanas committed her act on her own, without any kind of loss or sleight against her preceding it.

09/13/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Piouspelicañ
...

Just want to pop in and say that Jaina wanted to drown Orgrimmar out of revenge, and she was very clearly not "herself" at the time (extreme trauma from Theramore etc.), which is of course understandable.

However.

Sylvanas' burning of the tree was strategic and, well, at least a little bit calculated. She had a goal, and achieved it. Also, saying "could have commited genocide but didn't therefore shes better :)" is a terrible argument and you should feel very, very bad. Lastly, your comment about Jaina's neutrality in Dalaran made me blow air out of my nose very strongly. She literally sanctioned the slaughter of the native blood elf populace of Dalaran.

Think before you post. You are, however, correct in that they aren't really comparable.


It was a severe miscalculation. She burned the tree in the hopes of breaking the Alliance spirit. If anything it rallied the Alliance to fight harder and caused her to lose the Undercity. She is a fool.


If anything, she killed the Horde's hope. She was never going to be forgiven for her crimes, so she dragged the Horde down into the same pit with her.
09/13/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Piouspelicañ
Jaina made great strides to preserve neutrality in Dalaran!

Jaina COULD have committed genocide, but since there is a level-headed and compassionate person beneath all the trauma, she was able to be talked down from it. Sylvanas DID commit genocide, and will likely do it again if given the chance.

The two are near entirely unequivocal.


Just want to pop in and say that Jaina wanted to drown Orgrimmar out of revenge, and she was very clearly not "herself" at the time (extreme trauma from Theramore etc.), which is of course understandable.

However.

Sylvanas' burning of the tree was strategic and, well, at least a little bit calculated. She had a goal, and achieved it. Also, saying "could have commited genocide but didn't therefore shes better :)" is a terrible argument and you should feel very, very bad. Lastly, your comment about Jaina's neutrality in Dalaran made me blow air out of my nose very strongly. She literally sanctioned the slaughter of the native blood elf populace of Dalaran.

Think before you post. You are, however, correct in that they aren't really comparable.


Sylvanas' burning of the tree wasn't strategic at all. Her entire goal was to hold the city hostage and divide the alliance up between the Night Elves wish to reclaim Darnassus and the Alliance's bloodlust for Lordaeron/Gilneas. She literally said the worst case scenario was the Alliance uniting. Her burning down Teldrassil made it so that the Alliance uniting was the only option. Either it was entirely driven by emotion and Sylvanas' hatred of all things living, or she's an idiot.
09/13/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
09/13/2018 01:27 PMPosted by Carmageddon
...

Well, she was talked down from her THIRD attempt. The first two were just foiled by Thrall.

I'm not sure how much credit you get for attempting genocide and failing. Your point that she was kind of out of her mind at the time is a much better argument.
After unloading 2 clips of bullets at the kindergarten, since there is a level-headed and compassionate person beneath all the trauma, she was able to be talked down from firing a 3rd.


Are...are you equating Orgrimmar, the seat of orcish power and the focus of the Horde government and military, to a kindergarten?
09/13/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Alzrian
Are...are you equating Orgrimmar, the seat of orcish power and the focus of the Horde government and military, to a kindergarten?


Considering there is an orphanage, with children in it, as well as countless other civilians in the city...

Yes, it can be equated with a kindergarten. Or any other brand of civilian institution.
09/13/2018 01:27 PMPosted by Carmageddon
...

Well, she was talked down from her THIRD attempt. The first two were just foiled by Thrall.

I'm not sure how much credit you get for attempting genocide and failing. Your point that she was kind of out of her mind at the time is a much better argument.


Alright fair. If we're going to compare it, Jaina did this a very short while after Theramore was nuked. Sylvanas committed her act on her own, without any kind of loss or sleight against her preceding it.

...

It was a severe miscalculation. She burned the tree in the hopes of breaking the Alliance spirit. If anything it rallied the Alliance to fight harder and caused her to lose the Undercity. She is a fool.


If anything, she killed the Horde's hope. She was never going to be forgiven for her crimes, so she dragged the Horde down into the same pit with her.


Horde's hope? What? Hope for what?
...

Alright fair. If we're going to compare it, Jaina did this a very short while after Theramore was nuked. Sylvanas committed her act on her own, without any kind of loss or sleight against her preceding it.

...

If anything, she killed the Horde's hope. She was never going to be forgiven for her crimes, so she dragged the Horde down into the same pit with her.


Horde's hope? What? Hope for what?


An end to the war. Varian solidified that the Alliance would end them if they failed to uphold honor; they've done that. Rebellion won't make much of a difference, as the Alliance will likely not give them the benefit of the doubt again, even if the corruptive Warchief is dethroned. She's basically got the Horde hostage until the Alliance is finished, unless something can come along to shut the drums of war up.

Keep in mind, I take even my own writing with a hefty grain of salt, and you'd do well to do the same.
09/14/2018 12:21 AMPosted by Kheldan
09/13/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Alzrian
Are...are you equating Orgrimmar, the seat of orcish power and the focus of the Horde government and military, to a kindergarten?


Considering there is an orphanage, with children in it, as well as countless other civilians in the city...

Yes, it can be equated with a kindergarten. Or any other brand of civilian institution.


Lol so are people gonna talk about how Sylvanas made a smart strategic decision to murder a kindergarten now

The difference between Jaina and Sylvanas is this: Jaina even at her worst is understandable and can be sympathized with. Would nuking Orgrimmar be awful? Of course, but she was out of her mind with grief because of repeated, awful trauma that the horde, specifically, put her through. Jainas arc is interesting, as the young idealist who believed so much in peace with the horde that she stood against her father and ultimately got him killed, to what she is now. Where she is now is COMPLETELY understandable, though that doesn’t justify her trying to nuke capital cities.

Sylvanas is literally just a mustache twirling violent idiot who wants to kill Hope and who you have to be in deep, deep denial to try to say her actions aren’t counterproductive for her own side.
The greatest mistake Jaina ever made was choosing not to flood Orgrimmar.

The second greatest mistake was her willingness to stop at JUST Orgrimmar.
09/13/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Piouspelicañ
Jaina made great strides to preserve neutrality in Dalaran!

Jaina COULD have committed genocide, but since there is a level-headed and compassionate person beneath all the trauma, she was able to be talked down from it. Sylvanas DID commit genocide, and will likely do it again if given the chance.

The two are near entirely unequivocal.


Just want to pop in and say that Jaina wanted to drown Orgrimmar out of revenge, and she was very clearly not "herself" at the time (extreme trauma from Theramore etc.), which is of course understandable.

However.

Sylvanas' burning of the tree was strategic and, well, at least a little bit calculated. She had a goal, and achieved it. Also, saying "could have commited genocide but didn't therefore shes better :)" is a terrible argument and you should feel very, very bad. Lastly, your comment about Jaina's neutrality in Dalaran made me blow air out of my nose very strongly. She literally sanctioned the slaughter of the native blood elf populace of Dalaran.

Think before you post. You are, however, correct in that they aren't really comparable.


I just saw this. Allow me to retort.

Sylvanas's burning of the tree was strategic, yes - that does not mean the strategy was good or good intentioned. And yes, someone who doesn't commit genocide is better than someone who commits genocide, especially when they stop of their own volition. I feel very very good about this argument.

And Jaina sanctioned incarceration, this "slaughter" was reserved for people who fought back. I agree that the Purge itself was necessary, but the execution was handled horrifically. And the neutrality I'm referring to is the period of time between Theramore's bombing and the Purge, where Jaina succeeded the late Rhonin as head of the Kirin Tor. Anduin came to Jaina asking for the Kirin Tor's aid in the war, but Jaina refused, stating that Dalaran was one of the last places on Azeroth where Alliance and Horde worked together and she wanted to preserve that.

If you ask me to think before I post, perhaps you should read up before you post, sir.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Just want to pop in and say that Jaina wanted to drown Orgrimmar out of revenge, and she was very clearly not "herself" at the time (extreme trauma from Theramore etc.), which is of course understandable.

However.

Sylvanas' burning of the tree was strategic and, well, at least a little bit calculated. She had a goal, and achieved it. Also, saying "could have commited genocide but didn't therefore shes better :)" is a terrible argument and you should feel very, very bad. Lastly, your comment about Jaina's neutrality in Dalaran made me blow air out of my nose very strongly. She literally sanctioned the slaughter of the native blood elf populace of Dalaran.

Think before you post. You are, however, correct in that they aren't really comparable.


I just saw this. Allow me to retort.

Sylvanas's burning of the tree was strategic, yes - that does not mean the strategy was good or good intentioned. And yes, someone who doesn't commit genocide is better than someone who commits genocide, especially when they stop of their own volition. I feel very very good about this argument.

And Jaina sanctioned incarceration, this "slaughter" was reserved for people who fought back. I agree that the Purge itself was necessary, but the execution was handled horrifically. And the neutrality I'm referring to is the period of time between Theramore's bombing and the Purge, where Jaina succeeded the late Rhonin as head of the Kirin Tor. Anduin came to Jaina asking for the Kirin Tor's aid in the war, but Jaina refused, stating that Dalaran was one of the last places on Azeroth where Alliance and Horde worked together and she wanted to preserve that.

If you ask me to think before I post, perhaps you should read up before you post, sir.

To respond to that first part, a time in which she was about to commit mass genocide, using the focusing iris, she did NOT stop on her own volition. So your comment that someone who stops on their own will is completely invalid. There was no one to stop Sylvanas, that is the difference. Jaina stopped on the words of Thrall and Kalec. Check yourself before you tell who to read.
09/13/2018 01:25 PMPosted by Carmageddon
The main difference is that Jaina isn't undead, so she isn't basically a sociopath. She still has to sort through all that bothersome empathy...though that is certainly becoming less of a problem for her!


What if Jaina had the power that sylvanas has right now when she wanted to drown orgrimmar? the only difference between them that I can detect is that Jaina would feel regret and guilt after commiting mass murder and sylvanas wouldnt/doesnt mainly because she ded
09/14/2018 11:02 AMPosted by Zandarin
...

I just saw this. Allow me to retort.

Sylvanas's burning of the tree was strategic, yes - that does not mean the strategy was good or good intentioned. And yes, someone who doesn't commit genocide is better than someone who commits genocide, especially when they stop of their own volition. I feel very very good about this argument.

And Jaina sanctioned incarceration, this "slaughter" was reserved for people who fought back. I agree that the Purge itself was necessary, but the execution was handled horrifically. And the neutrality I'm referring to is the period of time between Theramore's bombing and the Purge, where Jaina succeeded the late Rhonin as head of the Kirin Tor. Anduin came to Jaina asking for the Kirin Tor's aid in the war, but Jaina refused, stating that Dalaran was one of the last places on Azeroth where Alliance and Horde worked together and she wanted to preserve that.

If you ask me to think before I post, perhaps you should read up before you post, sir.

To respond to that first part, a time in which she was about to commit mass genocide, using the focusing iris, she did NOT stop on her own volition. So your comment that someone who stops on their own will is completely invalid. There was no one to stop Sylvanas, that is the difference. Jaina stopped on the words of Thrall and Kalec. Check yourself before you tell who to read.


She stopped of her own volition when she got talked down. I can't attest for the other times she tried. On the flipside, you had Saurfang directly trying to belay her orders and yet she still went ahead. My comment is not completely invalid - the numbers show it. Sylvanas committed it, Jaina didn't.
I can count the number of people Jaina has turned into unliving abominations on one hand.

That hand is in a fist, going towards Sylvanas's face.
Jaina and Sylvanas, is there any difference?

Jaina doesn't mass murder, mass damn, and mass enslave her subordinates, does she?
One has a pulse the other doesn't

In all seriousness, i feel jaina was supposed to be the alliances sylvanas, but blizzard lacked the balls to go through with it. They had a valid start of darkness then just tried to ignore or justify it whenever possible.
09/13/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Piouspelicañ
Jaina's neutrality in Dalaran made me blow air out of my nose very strongly. She literally sanctioned the slaughter of the native blood elf populace of Dalaran.


No she didn't. Breathe in again, because you'll want to blow more air out of your nose. She issued an arrest warrant for all Blood Elves, so the Kirin Tor could get control of the situation and work out the truth. Some fought back, which ended badly for them.

In the game you had a few fight back or attempt to flee. What happens in real life when people do that, and is it tantamount to "sanction[ing] the slaughter?"

Too bad for those who attempted to fight back or flee. They fought the law, and the law won.
09/14/2018 03:25 PMPosted by Jandarus
She issued an arrest warrant for all Blood Elves, so the Kirin Tor could get control of the situation and work out the truth. Some fought back, which ended badly for them.


No she didn't. A warrant is a legal document issued by a government or police force executing the enforcement of a specific law after review by a magistrate or judge. You're trying to give Jaina's actions far more deliberation and weight than they actually had in order to recast these events as rational. What Jaina did was issue two contradictory commands within 10 seconds of eachother after killing 5 uninvolved Blood Elves.

Secondly, it is confirmed in Horde questing that the Sunreavers who don't resist are beaten, robbed and killed. Some of them killed via conjured shark. You're woefully ignorant of this situation and any 'nose blowing' at your words will be in exasperation that someone can still be this ignorant of the topic after it has been covered so many times on this forum.

09/14/2018 03:25 PMPosted by Jandarus
Too bad for those who attempted to fight back or flee. They fought the law, and the law won.


Debatable, given that the Sunreaver leadership escaped unharmed, Horde forces were able to infiltrate the city easily AFTER the lock down, and killed many many High Elves. If "the law" in this example is the semi-official "people's militia" irony intended, and the mercenaries hired from a foreign power that were enforcing Jaina's will. They got their nose bloodied pretty badly by these events. I'd call it a draw.

Where as, if "the law" is supposed to be the official law enforcement of the Kirin Tor. I don't believe The Sunreavers actually fought them at any point during the Purge of Dalaran.
This feels related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUfOIvlC6Eo
You were not prepared.

The enemy came into our world, their only desire to extinguish all life. They slaughtered our loved ones. They razed our homes, our cities, and our sacred places.

Illidan: You wish to know the difference between the demons and us? They will stop at nothing to destroy our world.

Kor'vas: And we will sacrifice everything to save it.


Except the Legion is Sylvanas' Horde and the Illidari is Jaina.
Kinda.
09/14/2018 12:21 AMPosted by Kheldan
09/13/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Alzrian
Are...are you equating Orgrimmar, the seat of orcish power and the focus of the Horde government and military, to a kindergarten?


Considering there is an orphanage, with children in it, as well as countless other civilians in the city...

Yes, it can be equated with a kindergarten. Or any other brand of civilian institution.


According to Eitrigg, all orcs are warriors. The Horde's supreme leader is the "Warchief", after all.

The equivalent to this is not "Jaina murders children"; it's Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Would it be a tragic loss of life? Yes, it probably would. On the other hand, it's easy to argue that crippling the Horde war machine would have prevented the despoiling of the Vale, the unleashing of Y'shaarj's heart, the entirety of WoD and probably all of Legion as well considering Gul'dan would never have made it over.

EDIT: To address the main issue, even Jaina's darker actions can be pointed to her being provoked over and over again. Meanwhile, Sylvanas provokes. We see this even in WC3, where Sylvanas proposes to help Garithos in exchange for revenge, then tells her pet dreadlord that she has no intention of keeping her end of the bargain the instant Garithos is out of earshot. We see it throughout WoW, where the Forsaken assault Hillsbrad and Southshore, and additionally test out their alchemical antics on humans (lobotomizing one, melting two others). We see it in Cata, where even Garrosh is revolted by Sylvanas's antics. We see it in Legion, where she bargains with a death goddess and tries to enslave Odyn's subordinates.

At worst, Jaina is a hypocrite. At worst, Sylvanas is an abomination.
Another difference too is that Sylvanas is still so far the same Sylvanas we've seen from the start of BFA

meanwhile what happened to the "Beware of me" Jania from her warbringers short? She rolled in guns hot at the Undercity than... turns into a guilt ridden wreck about a week later and gets taken captive by the Kul'tirans? That was a quick change from the I've had enough of the Horde, I've been blind to it all it's time to get my revenge to I've done everything wrong.

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