Totems vs Blessings.

Classic Discussion
I don't recall doing much on shaman's until TBC, but I've always heard that Blessing were better largely because they could be applied to a whole raid, and BoK was just flat out amazing apparently.

I don't get the feeling that making totems apply to whole raid would be particularly balanced but maybe if it was only some totems?

I know they added masses casting/recall of totems way later in wraith I think(?).

Clearly it didn't prevent horde from doing well in raids in vanilla and so doesn't need to be altered. But I'm curious if there were ever any suggested changes done or considered (pre-TBC) to try and well 'balance' the effects before shamans and paladins became available to both factions and quashed the shaman v paladin issue entirely.
Blessings are why Alliance had a distinct advantage in both PvE and PvP.
Totem twisting (if the shaman knows how to manage it) can net better overall output VS the comparable blessings because blessings are limited to a single per paladin at any time.

Totems provide a blanket buff to the group for a time duration, this allows you overlap them in a situation giving you're DPS both lower threat and higher DPS net output. (this is limited to the 5 man group size)

The advantage that paladin have is that they're easier to play at the base level, and you can in theory get away with less of them, but that's assuming you're stacking another class; not a good situation unless its all you got.
09/18/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Araska
Blessings are why Alliance had a distinct advantage in both PvE and PvP.


Wasn't the first guild to clear Naxx Horde?
09/18/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Kickindabeef
I don't recall doing much on shaman's until TBC, but I've always heard that Blessing were better largely because they could be applied to a whole raid, and BoK was just flat out amazing apparently.

I don't get the feeling that making totems apply to whole raid would be particularly balanced but maybe if it was only some totems?

I know they added masses casting/recall of totems way later in wraith I think(?).

Clearly it didn't prevent horde from doing well in raids in vanilla and so doesn't need to be altered. But I'm curious if there were ever any suggested changes done or considered (pre-TBC) to try and well 'balance' the effects before shamans and paladins became available to both factions and quashed the shaman v paladin issue entirely.


Totems are better for PVP as are shammy's in big battle groups and recall i think was very late BC maybe the pre patch to woltk.

I would pref if they down ranked totems, or did make them raid wide, since blessings are infact raid wide, though that's just me. I mean shammy's can only have down one of each totem anyway, and there are quite a lot of totems.
Totem twisting (if the shaman knows how to manage it) can net better overall output VS the comparable blessings because blessings are limited to a single per paladin at any time.

Totems provide a blanket buff to the group for a time duration, this allows you overlap them in a situation giving you're DPS both lower threat and higher DPS output. (this is limited to the 5 man group size)

The advantage that paladin have is that they're easier to play at the base level, and you can in theory get away with less of them, but that's assuming you're stacking another class; not a good situation unless its all you got.


For the record, this is not true of all totems.

Totem twisting ONLY works with Windfury Totem, because Windfury Totem pulses a 10-second buff onto the target's weapon. All other totems pulse a buff that only applies while the totem is alive and in range. (There's like a two second tick check. It's theoretically possible to twist, say, Strength of Earth and Stoneskin, but it would require a tremendous amount of mana and consume every single GCD, it's not feasible.)

So what you can do is twist WF + something else. It's a not a generic 'buff two totems' ability.

Also, even with totem twisting, many of the buffs available aren't as good as blessings. They cost vastly more in-combat mana, because blessings can be pre-buffed and totems cannot. They only last a minute and they cannot be moved; if the fight requires moving (Ossirian the Unscarred was particularly annoying about this, I often only kept up WF on that fight), they need to be redropped constantly.

Also, the fact that they are not limited to group allows people to have blessings from more than one paladin at a time anyway, giving them multiple buffs without the need for totem twisting.

Listen, I love shaman and I'm not asking for buffs or anything, but let's not pretend that totems were as good as blessings in PVE or that Alliance did not have a clear and massive PVE advantage because of paladins. Paladins were a stronger PVE class than shamans, full stop.

09/18/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Menard
09/18/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Araska
Blessings are why Alliance had a distinct advantage in both PvE and PvP.


Wasn't the first guild to clear Naxx Horde?


Nihilum (Horde) was the first guild to kill Kel'thuzad, but that was an anomaly. (It might well have been related to them being EU, as most of the top
Alliance guilds were US.) They were not even in the top 10 for most of the Naxx bosses. World first is a small data set anyway that is never going to reflect the full faction.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Guild_progression_(original_Naxxramas)

Roughly 7 out of the first 10 kills of each boss are Alliance. There was a very clear progression advantage to Alliance overall in Vanilla and people who ignore it to focus on a single outlier are having trouble with statistics.
It's not going to be changed.

Making totems effect more than a single party would lead to group make up changes and so many other issues. No need to start sliding down a slippery slope.
Yeah but... Frost Shooock!
shamans destroy pallys 1v1, purge every ability they got.

horde killed the hardest boss in the game first. nuff said

shamans have chain heal best raid healer in game.

pallys ONCE they have crit are really good heals the best healer actually.

but would you rather grind to 60 with a pally or shaman... pallys are so damn boring. very slow to level and good luck trying to raid as ret or prot where you had a better chance to raid as enchance and far better to level.

also !@#$ gnomes. I'd rather play horde then see them every raid and I'd rather not go against undead in pvp or orcs with 25% stun resist vs pally and rogues (ud,orc are the most popular races for horde)
09/18/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Sickn
shamans destroy pallys 1v1, purge every ability they got.


LIES!!!
It was widely accepted at the time that alliance had a pve advantage and horde had a pvp advantage. There was relentless posts about the imbalance which is why paladins and shaman were given to the opposite faction, kicking off a long history of blizzard pandering to forum qq.
09/18/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Härländ
Totem twisting (if the shaman knows how to manage it) can net better overall output VS the comparable blessings because blessings are limited to a single per paladin at any time.

Totems provide a blanket buff to the group for a time duration, this allows you overlap them in a situation giving you're DPS both lower threat and higher DPS net output. (this is limited to the 5 man group size)

The advantage that paladin have is that they're easier to play at the base level, and you can in theory get away with less of them, but that's assuming you're stacking another class; not a good situation unless its all you got.
you also lose out on alot of the shaman's mana by totem twisting, which you'd only be able to keep up for so long
09/18/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Kickindabeef
I don't recall doing much on shaman's until TBC, but I've always heard that Blessing were better largely because they could be applied to a whole raid, and BoK was just flat out amazing apparently.

I don't get the feeling that making totems apply to whole raid would be particularly balanced but maybe if it was only some totems?

I know they added masses casting/recall of totems way later in wraith I think(?).

Clearly it didn't prevent horde from doing well in raids in vanilla and so doesn't need to be altered. But I'm curious if there were ever any suggested changes done or considered (pre-TBC) to try and well 'balance' the effects before shamans and paladins became available to both factions and quashed the shaman v paladin issue entirely.


Blessing of salvation was actually the go to
Well think of it this way: would you rather play a shaman or a paladin in a raid? BE HONEST! I don't think I met any paladin players who actually enjoyed constantly casting blessings on an entire raid. Sure the paladin class was stronger in PvE but at a price: extremely tedious gameplay. Comparatively speaking the shaman class had it a lot better when it came to gameplay even if it meant the class was weaker in performance.

Totems certainly had their drawbacks as they 1) could be killed 2) were immobile. Which meant they had to be recast quite a bit in PvP and in any PvE fight where players moved around too much.

Making totems raid wide would make horde way overpowered in battlegrounds. That's not the sort of change I would make if I was trying to balance the factions. If anything Blizzard should have nerfed the blessings like salvation and kings during the vanilla era. Maybe they could have reduced the mana cost for totems, but they ultimately took the lazy out and gave shamans to alliance and paladins to horde.
Blessings had to be recast on every group member but it stayed with them for 5 minutes or 30 minutes for the greater blessings that required regents.

Totem's only needed to be cast once and buffed the entire group within 30 yards, but they needed to be recast on every pull when you moved out of their range. They only needed 1 item to be equipped in the range slot that shaman's used instead of ranged weapons.
If totems were made raid wide the best way to balance them would be reduce their AoE or duration by 50%
Pshh I dont know about you, but a enhanced shaman with hand of ragnarok was HILARIOUS in pvp. Would quad 1 hit clothies and beat the crap out of plate wearers with windfury. Just needed a frost mage as a side kick to frost nova people from running away. 10/10 would love to see a shaman with hand of ragnarok again :P

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