Destro needs (another) 10% dmg buff

Warlock
Destruction needs a few fixes and it would be just fine:

1) Fire and Brimstone should be a toggle baseline like it was previously (WoD being probably my favourite incarnation).

2) Immolate should be instant cast - this would at least give us something beside incinerate to cast on the move for mobility. It's not much but being able to refresh our dot does allow us to plan our movement a little better and make us more useful in mythic+.

3) Chaos bolt's damage needs to be increased at baseline - the damage of Chaos bolt during infernal needs to be nerfed. This will allow us to be significantly more useful outside of our burst window.

4) Revert the Havoc damage changes if change #1 isn't implemented.
I don’t see destro as that bad, I think it just needs a buff or make cb stronger baseline. Relying on a 30 sec window is just horrific in a lot of sustained fights.
09/23/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Humanìty
Affliction should be lower than destro on stand still phases.


tbh aff should be lower than destro AND demo on any but 3 target situations.... since aff is only class to be able to DoT.

09/23/2018 07:55 PMPosted by Schirmy
Which is an incredibly niche situation, and even then, I'd still play Affy because the results are better and more favorable for movement.


this.

destro is sh*t becasue of cleave niche mentality.

HOW often is a fight primarily 2 target cleave focused?

a class should not hav a niche that is rarely ever used....maybe as a talent that u can pick for said niuche fights, but overall its a horrible way to build a spec around :/
It also needs Rain of Fire to not cost 3 Soul Shards.
I'm sure 9.0 will be a good time for Destro. :)
I think they need to make the damage not COMPLETELY revolve around infernal and 30% crit cooldown rotations.

ATM destruction has a 30 second burst window which is really good and then 3 minutes of.... well not too much going on.
As a destro main, here's the problem I see with it, and others have hit on many of these points already:

1) Incinerate is literally just trash as a filler. As it stands now, it's heavily dependent upon your haste or crit. I'm 363 sitting at 20% crit and 12% haste (yay RNG...), and it feels painful to be wasting time using incinerate as I have nothing else to do.

2) Backdraft makes things feel fun, but I've learned that I tried to explicitly not use it on incinerates if at all possible. The cast time of chaos bolt is far too long to not use a backdraft charge. Therefor I often find myself in raid situations building up to 4 shards and THEN using a conflag charge to get two charges of backdraft and blow my shards.

3) Using the infernal is a lot of fun, especially when paired with DSI. Unfortunately, the two feel awkward together. With my gear, talents, food, flask, rune, and potion, I can usually peak ST around 26k DPS, even more so if I time my usage of DSI towards the end of the infernal's lifetime. This configuration is by far the strongest ST case I've found, however DSI's 2 minute CD and Infernal's 3 minute cooldown make things feel funky. I don't want to use DSI unless I'm going to use my infernal. There are situations in raids where I will not immediately use my infernal when on CD (Zekvoz is a good example of this, I use it in the beginning, and save my cooldown for our lust at the beginning of phase 3, which is often around 4.5 minutes) and in those cases I know I can plan to use my DSI immediately on CD, but on fights like Fetid, there is no way I'm going to blow DSI without my infernal because we lust at the beginning of the fight and the fight often lasts around 4 minutes so I'm going to finish out the fight close after my infernal dies.

4) The issue of useless talents still exist in their full glory. Why did Blizzard even give us Soul Fire as a tier 1 talent when you Flashover as a contender? Flashover is significantly more powerful than Soul Fire, and not to mention is more fun. I haven't even taken Soul fire since it was given to use, but looking at how it plays gives me no motivation to try it out. If it were an instant cast with a lower cooldown, I might be interested in it. Not to mention that Soulfire generates a measly 4 soul shard fragments. Eradication is kind of in the same situation. Ever since the major nerf of Havoc, it makes no sense to ever take Eradication unless there was a council fight. The only fight in Uldir I can think of where I could even make decent use of eradication is Zekvoz, Zul, and Mythraxx Phase 2. But because of the overnerf of Havoc, Eradication serves little benefit in conjunction with Havoc. Just take Flashover, it's a more consistent play style, and it works in conjunction with Havoc. Hell, if you're good and lucky you can get three chaos bolts, a conflag, and a couple incinerates out in the havoc window. 2 chaos bolts at 100% and 60% is more than one chaos bolt at 110% and 66% (I calculated this by assuming a three chaos bolt situation with flashover versus a two chaos bolt situation with eradication).

5) Rain of Fire is just garbage. It's accompanying talent Inferno is garbage, 20% chance to generate a soul shard fragment (which the tooltip is ambiguous, is that when you cast it or when it deals damage to an individual target). Why does destro need to be continually screwed when it comes to AOE damage? Just take cataclysm, and use the influx of soul shards from your immolates to havoc+flashover chaos bolts onto two targets. If there are enough enemies, then use rain of fire, otherwise it largely goes completely unused being overshadowed by Cataclysm (which I'm honestly glad cataclysm is useful now, and it's a great ST alternative to F&B and Inferno).

6) Drain Life. Why do we even have this anymore? It is so completely underpowered that it's useless unless you're desperate to stay alive. The ONLY time I have found it mildly useful is on mythic Mother during the transitioning of phases. I can't deal damage to the adds fast enough in contrast to my melee raidmates, so I sit there and drain life to try and give my healers a break. Unless I have cataclysm or conflagrate available, I'm unable to damage those mobs, so I may as well ease up my burden on the heals. I'd prefer to see drain life turned into a secondary survival ability where I can maybe use it once a minute to restore a fairly significant amount of health

7) Tier two of our talents. Let's see, you can take an ability that increases your haste by 15% for 8 seconds, or have a minor DPS increase by consuming your immolates faster (oh, btw, this screws your shard generation), or you can take LolShadowBurn. I'm pretty sure someone the only reason Shadowburn still exists is for PVP, which begs the question of why it isn't a PVP talent. The haste effect is no a brainer for any PVE situation.

I don't want to sit here and tell Blizzard how to do their job, but the flip-flopping I've seen with every warlock spec since WOD seems to me that they have no clue what they want to do with us. Last expansion at the beginning it was a matter of what kind of fight you were doing dictated your spec, but that didn't work out nicely because of the artifact weapons, so they changed their philosophy mid-expansion and just made affliction the best for all situations. Then this expansion rolls around, they rework and nerf demo into the ground, make affliction boring as !@#$ but powerful, and make some changes to destro that leave you sitting there scratching your head wondering if it was rushed on a Friday afternoon before a holiday. At least they cleaned up the talent tiers and made them make a bit more sense, which also made specs feel less targetted to certain fight situations, but at the same time I don't understand why it is that they can't seem to come up with a talent philosophy where the damage is roughly the same but caters to a play style preference. I'd love to roll CDF instead of DSI if they played out the same in the sims, CDF gives me something more to do during downtime than spam incinerate, it feels fun, and it even does a little AOE. But as far as ST situations go, CDF is overshadowed by DSI and gets ultimately ignored. And don't get me started on Soul Conduit which is as big of a snooze-fest as the old style talents where you got a flat 1% increase to crit.

/rant.
09/24/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Likkystikky
It also needs Rain of Fire to not cost 3 Soul Shards.

it used to be a generator of soul shards, but apparently they couldn't balance it so that it wasn't a gain to use in single target scenarios, even though it seems like a perfectly easy numbers fix, so they nerfed its damage and removed its shard gen in WoD, effectively rendering it completely useless. I see what they tried to do with it in legion, but it just doesn't feel right spending three entire shards on such a brief, not very significant spell. So, I agree.

09/24/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Schirmy
I'm sure 9.0 will be a good time for Destro. :)

I thought the same about 7.0 for aff :) but for real, it's nice to remain optimistic. obviously the developers dont want players to dislike playing their classes. they just don't do a good job of making them fun. eventually while throwing things at the wall, something should stick.

09/24/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Korzag
1) Incinerate is literally just trash as a filler. As it stands now, it's heavily dependent upon your haste or crit. I'm 363 sitting at 20% crit and 12% haste (yay RNG...), and it feels painful to be wasting time using incinerate as I have nothing else to do.


I'd also like to point out that incinerate has looked like hot garbage visually since Legion

and that I agree with the rest of your post
I would like to see a few changes to Destro:

CB damage up.

Immolate crits always give an extra shard to emphasis crit even more.

Grimoire of Supremacy changed to "every shard you spend while Infernal is on CD reduces the cd by 1 (maybe 2) seconds".

Flashover redesigned, and 2 backdrafts baseline.

Eradication increased to 10% for 10 secs.

Soul Fire giving 1 whole SS, its a cast with a long CD, it should give MORE than a instant cast with a shorter cd (conflag).

Reverse entropy redesigned (flat stat increases are boring)

Internal combustion slightly buffed (great concept for a talent because it actually changes the way you play)

Shadow Burn give double shards on crit with a haste scaling CD (basically another conflag to throw in during Havoc)

Inferno baseline with Rain of fire, and redesigned to have RoF put a DoT on enemies for flavor/extra damage.

Fire and Brimestone increased to 60% damage to match Havoc.

Grimoire of sacrifice removed and a completely destruction themed talent to take its place.

Soul Conduit removed and a completely destruction themed talent to take its place.
Found this post using the search function.

Morden, Korzag, and Serenitiest all have some wonderful suggestions.

I just came here to suggest making Soul Fire hit harder than a Conflagrate, and make the other two talents on the first tier as strong as Flashover.
We would be good if they just shuffled over gosup damage or took shard regeneration completely out of it can just gave us that shard regeneration naturally.
Destro is great design wise (basically the same with minor changes since wrath) and Chaos bolt feels huge again. Get some gear, do some raids, get a better perspective of it.

Destro in M+ feels awesome.
Destro in raids feels awesome on most fights. Only fight I wouldn't recommend it on is g'hunn for obvious reasons.
10/14/2018 06:13 AMPosted by Reckoner
You guys complain way too much. Destro is great design wise (basically the same with minor changes since wrath) and Chaos bolt feels huge again. Get some gear, do some raids, get a better perspective of it.

I'm gonna disagree that design-wise it's fine. Our burst dps with infernal comes from the shard gen, and to a lesser extent GoSup, and it feels to me like a band-aid to hide poor shard gen relative to the cost of chaos bolt.

it shouldn't deal more damage, it should cost fewer shards. That's probably one of the only changes to the spec that I'd make though. it's just a big enough issue for me to care about.
10/14/2018 06:26 AMPosted by Haunker
You guys complain way too much. Destro is great design wise (basically the same with minor changes since wrath) and Chaos bolt feels huge again. Get some gear, do some raids, get a better perspective of it.

I'm gonna disagree that design-wise it's fine. Our burst dps with infernal comes from the shard gen, and to a lesser extent GoSup, and it feels to me like a band-aid to hide poor shard gen relative to the cost of chaos bolt.

it shouldn't deal more damage, it should cost fewer shards. That's probably one of the only changes to the spec that I'd make though. it's just a big enough issue for me to care about.


But we literally spent 4 expansions asking for a more rare, harder hitting chaos bolt. we have been calling it wet noodle for 8+ years now. How is this a bad thing? Obviously, they had to either make shard generation super fluid so we can spam lesser-versions of it, or make shard generation slower outside of burst so we can still cast hard-hitting bolts. This is what we were ALL complaining about for years.
10/14/2018 06:43 AMPosted by Reckoner
But we literally spent 4 expansions asking for a more rare, harder hitting chaos bolt. we have been calling it wet noodle for 8+ years now.

I'm sorry but did you play during MoP and WoD?

that's literally not true in any way whatsoever lmao. Chaos bolt hit like a truck and we could cast more than two at a time.

And now we can only cast two, and it barely does more damage than conflagrate.

I'm still genuinely wondering who you think was complaining about chaos bolt not doing enough damage during those expansions, though. Because there wasn't anyone doing it, lmao. If anything, chaos bolt was dealing too MUCH damage those expansions.
My issue with Destruction is how bland it is to play outside of a 3 minute DPS cooldown. It feels like it takes forever to build up shards for Chaos Bolts.
10/14/2018 06:13 AMPosted by Reckoner
Destro is great design wise (basically the same with minor changes since wrath) and Chaos bolt feels huge again. Get some gear, do some raids, get a better perspective of it.


"Get some gear, do some raids, get a better perspective of it"

This is not a valid argument to back up your opinion. Instead of insulting everyone like you're the only warlock on earth that has raided, explain why you think it is great design wise. If you provided why you think its great design you may give other players fresh perspective.

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ON TOPIC:

For me personally, I do not like that for my CB to feel like its hitting like it should only after I have to blown all my cooldowns. Even then it still takes spending several soul shards before it hits like a freight train. The fact that this is a meme in my guild that is pretty bad. I have always thought a happy medium for CB would be having it cost 1-3(or 5) soul shards and have the damage scale accordingly, it would give some choice on when exactly to fire them off. Alternatively, they could have CB(Still 2 shards) do more damaged based on how many shards you have. Once you hit 5 shards you start talking damage if you don't spend them, so that there is a risk/reward from holding onto to them or spamming them.

RoF is too expensive for what it provides, a drop to 2 or possibly 1 (probably 2) shards per cast would be fine.

Drain Life - needs to be re-tuned, the healing is not worth the cast.

A slight tweak to Burning Rush (4% to 3%) could be good for the class overall. I also think that it should replace Demonic Circle, and Demonic Circle should be baseline.

Dark Pact - should be based on max health not current health so its actually worth it when you need it.

Dark Fury - effect should be baseline and something added to replace it. Possibly something to tweak Eye of Kilrogg, maybe use the design of Leoric's Wraith Walk combined with the WD Healing Journey Rune. This would also make the eye useful again.

Things like Internal Combustion are cool and could speed up the play style if it gave the potential shards it would have yield if you just allowed it to tick.
What about putting the infernal on a 1 or 1.5 min CD, then lowering damage, length, and removing the bits it gives?

That would help with PvP survivability as well and give it a trade off of offensive vs defensive.
10/14/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Jetlili
What about putting the infernal on a 1 or 1.5 min CD, then lowering damage, length, and removing the bits it gives?

That would help with PvP survivability as well and give it a trade off of offensive vs defensive.

That wouldn't do much good for the gameplay flow, destro's burst window is really reliant on the ember bits that infernal gives. Even if it did more damage overall on a 1 or 1.5 min cd, it would feel significantly worse playwise without ember generation buffed elsewhere.
10/14/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Haunker
That wouldn't do much good for the gameplay flow, destro's burst window is really reliant on the ember bits that infernal gives. Even if it did more damage overall on a 1 or 1.5 min cd, it would feel significantly worse playwise without ember generation buffed elsewhere.


There are ways that blizzrd can fix this though. a few even

remove shard requirement from the RoF and put it on an 6-8 second CD. Let it generate embers and lower dmg to compensate, like it used to be for like 1 patch. I loved it in the ST rotation, but you can fix that with dmg knobs. You change also change it to be only useful for when infernal is up or when 3 or more targets are hit, etc.

make immo an instant cast and lower dmg

change infernal to what I said before, but leave the ember bits generation and up/down the bonus % to compensate.

change that RoF ember generating talent to something useful OR if RoF doesnt generate bits, up the talent to significantly increase generation during infernal.


meh. i give up. I play demo this patch (totally a bad decision) but I would switch back in a heartbeat if they made it more engaging, fun, or maybe a little more durable in PvP.

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