Explain your reasoning.

Wyrmrest Accord
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09/10/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Sulthorne
So I'm curious, what exactly is the problem for you?


The Horde have gone genocidal again. Sylvanas always was the black sheep of the Horde's leadership, but her story beats have been about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. The woman who says "What are we if not slaves to this torment?" is now waging all out war on the living. And the Horde as a whole - Baine Bloodhoof and the Darkspear Trolls in particular - are seemingly fine with that.

Again.

How do you think it can be improved?


Baine could grow a pair and tell Sylvanas to stand down, or she'll stand alone. We got more hand wringing over Garrosh's Cataclysm style leadership than we do over Sylvanas'.

Which direction would you prefer the story go in?


I covered this in another thread, but the summary version would be totally reworking the War of Thorns to be something that happened due to the Alliance rather than the Horde. The Night Elves, bolstered by the Lightforged Draenei, push the Warsong completely out of Ashenvale and carry on to the Crossroads. Sylvanas strips Ogrimmar to the bone to push the Night Elves out of the Barrens, and gets informed that the Alliance is pushing into Stonetalon and besieging Horde interests there. Sylvanas has her Apothecaries and Sappers work around through Aszhara and blight the Night Elf supply lines, then pushes forward with the intent on relieving Stonetalon. But the Draenei swing in from Forest Song and basically trap her forces in Ashenvale, and reports have Sentinels back in the Barrens and pushing dangerously close to a stripped bare Orgrimmar in Aszhara. Sylvanas is forced to punch through Ashenvale, now not so much looking to relieve Stonetalon as distract the Alliance from the fact she left the Horde capital unguarded (The bulk of the Horde's forces are still scattered throughout the world from the war against the Legion and are still returning home). She decides on a suicide run to Teldrassil to buy Baine enough time to reinforce Ogrimmar from Mulgore. Sylvanas plans on launching the strongest explosives and firebombs she can at the tree - knowing that the Druids and Sentinel forces in Darnassus will quickly contain the fires but the threat will have to be dealt with, and that means turning away from Durotar. But just like the Horde, the Alliance military is scattered throughout the globe. The only reason the Night Elf offensive worked was thanks to the Lightforged teleportation technology...and the fact they'd stripped most of the guards and druids stationed on Teldrassil. Sylvanas watches in horror as her "diversionary" fires start to consume the World Tree, but horror turns to determination as she realizes there's no way this event can be de-escalated. The Alliance struck first, but that won't matter to Anduin or his council. The only option available is War.
09/10/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Sulthorne
what exactly is the problem for you?

The story is at odds with its own levity, it embodies an incredibly cynical mindset and is underlined by pessimism, and the writers transparently threw out consistency to make it happen.

Imagine you're a kid, hanging out with someone for their birthday, and the schedule is as follows:

7:00: Show up at their place.
7:30: Go play laser tag.
9:00: Get home and eat pizza.
9:30: Watch Schindler's List.
11:00: Eat cake and open presents!

Watching innocent people suffer and get murdered all the time isn't why I show up to Fantasyland. It's considerably harder to get me to enjoy something that's about that...and almost impossible to get me to enjoy something that isn't about that, but makes me see it anyway.

Warcraft isn't about genocide. It's not about slaughtering innocent people. Brennadam exists in the same zone as Kingdom Hearts references and well-hidden wlw couples and "The Lichen King." Stormsong Valley isn't about Brennadam; it's just sort of a skipping stone along the main plotline of corrupted Tidesages. The game forces you to come into the aftermath and see parents murdered in front of their children and women burning to death...and then forget about it to go help farmers with their quillboar problem. It's a huge, unthinkable tragedy, but it's given little attention beyond a framing device for XP. Katherine Proudmoore doesn't even mention it. She just say some generic "those savages would see us all dead" thing.

"But what about that questline where you burn that Horde town in retaliation?" I hear you typing. That does happen...but the writers still frame it so that you're in the wrong. This isn't a questline for justice, where you round up the people who did this and punish them. The game writes it as revenge, as the most basic "eye for an eye" thing ever. The story chapter is even called "Cycle of Hatred." Don't confuse what you're doing for justice or righting wrongs or anything like that. They punch you, so you punch back and call it settled, and screw you if you want anything else.

...which is the fundamental problem with Warcraft's story. It's based on cynicism. No one in the A-plot of WoW ever gets justice. The night elves are never going to get to rebuild Teldrassil, and they're never going to get to punish anyone who was involved. It'll either be revealed that Sylvanas was totally justified because something something Void Lord corruption and she'll be absolved of all guilt, or some other pressing threat is going to come down from on high and they'll continue the Warcraft 3 parallels by making us "set aside our differences to save Azeroth!" and then we'll just all forget that Teldrassil ever happened.

Almost every act that's even slightly merciful is punished. The human kingdoms imprisoned the orcs instead of killing them, so they've been fighting wars ever since. Jaina saved Thrall's Horde from destruction, so he put a war hawk on the throne who nuked her city. The night elves couldn't bear to execute the Highborne, so they exiled them across the sea instead, and they've been suffering for it since the Alliance found them. Screw you for trying to do good. In Warcraft, the safest stance is to be as brutal as possible. We see this with Sylvanas - she does totally evil stuff, openly talks about destroying hope, and basically hasn't had a visible setback since.

The obvious rebuttal is "well, obviously, it's only logical that the villains will get punished eventually. We're always the heroes there that get to save the day." But in a story where they give us a ship with a laser cannon, establish it as the home of a BfA allied race, and then don't let the Alliance use it because they don't want them to, WoW can't be said to be a story that operates on logic anymore. We're seeing the man behind the curtain here. The writers are going to do whatever the hell they want according to whatever whims they have, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

I don't have a solution to any of these problems, and I don't think the solution is to slam Horde players and try to make them feel bad in the narrative. Most of them didn't ask for any of this either, and I wouldn't want to take their enjoyment away, either.

I'm just sort of tired. Not everything's gotta be Game of Thrones, man.
09/10/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Sulthorne
So I'm curious, what exactly is the problem for you?


The Horde have gone genocidal again. Sylvanas always was the black sheep of the Horde's leadership, but her story beats have been about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. The woman who says "What are we if not slaves to this torment?" is now waging all out war on the living. And the Horde as a whole - Baine Bloodhoof and the Darkspear Trolls in particular - are seemingly fine with that.

Again.

How do you think it can be improved?


Baine could grow a pair and tell Sylvanas to stand down, or she'll stand alone. We got more hand wringing over Garrosh's Cataclysm style leadership than we do over Sylvanas'.

Which direction would you prefer the story go in?


I covered this in another thread, but the summary version would be totally reworking the War of Thorns to be something that happened due to the Alliance rather than the Horde. The Night Elves, bolstered by the Lightforged Draenei, push the Warsong completely out of Ashenvale and carry on to the Crossroads. Sylvanas strips Ogrimmar to the bone to push the Night Elves out of the Barrens, and gets informed that the Alliance is pushing into Stonetalon and besieging Horde interests there. Sylvanas has her Apothecaries and Sappers work around through Aszhara and blight the Night Elf supply lines, then pushes forward with the intent on relieving Stonetalon. But the Draenei swing in from Forest Song and basically trap her forces in Ashenvale, and reports have Sentinels back in the Barrens and pushing dangerously close to a stripped bare Orgrimmar in Aszhara. Sylvanas is forced to punch through Ashenvale, now not so much looking to relieve Stonetalon as distract the Alliance from the fact she left the Horde capital unguarded (The bulk of the Horde's forces are still scattered throughout the world from the war against the Legion and are still returning home). She decides on a suicide run to Teldrassil to buy Baine enough time to reinforce Ogrimmar from Mulgore. Sylvanas plans on launching the strongest explosives and firebombs she can at the tree - knowing that the Druids and Sentinel forces in Darnassus will quickly contain the fires but the threat will have to be dealt with, and that means turning away from Durotar. But just like the Horde, the Alliance military is scattered throughout the globe. The only reason the Night Elf offensive worked was thanks to the Lightforged teleportation technology...and the fact they'd stripped most of the guards and druids stationed on Teldrassil. Sylvanas watches in horror as her "diversionary" fires start to consume the World Tree, but horror turns to determination as she realizes there's no way this event can be de-escalated. The Alliance struck first, but that won't matter to Anduin or his council. The only option available is War.


First off: Thank you for doing what the purpose of this thread is meant for, you get a gold star and a cookie, you beautiful man!

Secondly, I actually really like your ideas of how it should've gone. The Alliance striking first would of been honestly way more interesting considering how much Anduin desires peace especially compared to Sylvanas', and even Greymane who started to slowly come around to the idea of peace with the Forsaken in Before The Storm. Seeming some internal conflict in the Alliance leadership for a change would also of been really interesting.

Edit: Those were some awful spelling/grammar errors on my part! D:
09/10/2018 02:05 PMPosted by Sulthorne
yes, yes I know what Sylvanas was doing but we didn't know that right away, which still makes the attack unprovoked.

Well, this kind of touches on one of my main problems with the Sylvanas story.

No, the characters didn't know exactly what Sylvanas was up to at the time, but "I'm pretty sure Sylvanas is doing something horrible and needs to be stopped" is pretty much always going to turn out to be right. The Broken Shore was a notable exception, and for me that ends up making Sylvanas' story on the Broken Shore one of the most interesting stories for her, but as a rule you can usually count on her doing something to the detriment of everybody else. And all the leaders know it.

So that's part of why I found the Burning of Teldrassil and its immediate aftermath profoundly unsatisfying. That, and the fact that, after several players saying to Blizzard "Wow, I'm really disappointed that it looks like Sylvanas is just going to burn the tree like a basic villain and start this war," and Blizzard's response was, "Just wait and see."

Well, we waited, we saw, it happened. It wasn't really anything surprising or nuanced, she burned it in a pique, and dragged the whole Horde into this conflict. And not only did we as players generally see it coming, it should have been obvious to the other faction leaders as well. As with Stormheim, they wouldn't necessarily know what she would do, but it was always a good bet it wouldn't be something they'd support, and yet in standing by and allowing her to lead them without apparently setting up a fail safe (a fairly obvious move only two years after violently deposing another warchief), tacit support is exactly what they gave her.

Every move that the Horde leaders have made between Vol'jin naming Sylvanas Warchief and now, so long as it wasn't taking an active role in safeguarding their people from another highly suspect warchief's worst impulses, lessens those characters.

And the little speech from A Good War was interesting and it could have merit, but you have to consider the source. If you have an upstanding person who's always trying to do the right thing, and they say, "No matter what we do, they're not going to give us a chance," then you know that it's coming from a place of good faith. But when it comes from someone who you could never count on doing the right thing in the first place, you take that with a grain of salt.
Because instead of developing Sylvanas and the Forsaken away from their roots as black sheep of the Horde into becoming a fully integrated part of the Horde, as entrusted as the Orcs and Tauren, they've continually decided to double down on the same storythread of them being these evil outsiders in the Horde that they haven't been able to let go of since Vanilla. It sucks.

So now I get to see my favorite faction, the Horde, on the road to cannibalizing itself again. And this time it's at the cost of my favorite part of the Horde, the Forsaken, and my overall favorite Horde leader since Vanilla, Sylvanas, becoming the scapegoats and probable victims of the Blizzard raid team, all while the most boring aspects of the Horde, embodied by the utter bore that is Saurfang, get propped up in super cool cinematics and all that.

All the while, Blizzard's story and even other players outside the game make me feel worse and worse about being a Forsaken fan, as well as fan of a more pragmatic, strong and interesting Horde over being a generic "muh hunur" Red Alliance faction. Not by targeting me personally or even actually targeting the Forsaken fans on purpose, but more by just how I see the aspects I really like and want to see stay are constantly hammered either by the villain bat or by other players railing on them as problems or whatever.

So yeah, that's my main gripe with the story tbh.
Another thing about the story that is getting me...

The Horde and Alliance have switched places. The Horde now has the established military power, the ancient histories, the powerful artifacts. Their own deal in BfA is bringing a lost daughter back to Zandalar and being welcomed as Heroes. They get to be the Champions.

The Alliance meanwhile are a whole bunch of refugee populations (And the Night Elves have gotten metaphorically kicked in the nether regions for the past four expansions now) living in a hostile world that would like nothing more than to see you dead. I expect the Draenei are having some serious flashbacks now that, with Teldrassil gone, theirs is a small enclave off the coast of a hostile continent.

And the Alliance questing experience in BfA is...we have to go to a nation with our hat in hand, begging for help. And we get thrown in prison for it.

I'm all for expectation subversion, but the script's been totally flipped at this point.
There was a thread on this 2 weeks ago, do you really want everyone to retype all of their answers to this question?

Personally, I don't have a huge problem with the story because I don't care about it much. I've always found Warcraft, from way back to its first RTS game, to be a fun mix of cliché and silliness. My expectations of it as a story never went higher than "a backdrop to a fun video game."

It faces the issue that it's an MMO, so proven narrative structures that are successful and feel "right" to readers of books and viewers of television & films are a bit tougher to apply.

But not impossible. It's just not a priority because: successful video game. I wouldn't bother going deeper into this part of the topic here or on any forum.

In Metzen's recent interview, he revealed that the story is driven by dev, and given to a writing team to make work. That process evolved out of a young company succeeding beyond their wildest dreams, and is likely not going to change too much now that we're this deep in. I'd bet it's not as streamlined and effective, storytelling wise, as it could be.

The writing is made to be accessible to the entire player base. This ranges underachieving teenagers to working professionals. That wide demographic alone makes it almost impossible for them to serve me as a reader with what I'd consider an amazing story.

My high standards? I don't know. Modern literature? I said this in another thread, but if I was in a bookstore and saw a hardcover called WARCRAFT with an Orc and Human facing off on it, it wouldn't interest me at all unless some writer I knew was absolutely incredible wrote it, which is hard to imagine.

But it isn't a book, or a story, it's a game. A game that I love. That doesn't mean I can't laugh at how forced or silly some of the story is.

e.g. of all the ways they could have handled Sylvanas' Warbringers short -- all the motivations they could have given her, all the ways the cinematic after the Battle for Lordaeron could have gone and they chose to do it Saturday morning cartoon style. That's fine by me, but it also affects where I place it on a list of "good stories" in my head.
The thing that frustrates me the most about this story is that they could still have kept the same story beats and had it make much more sense if they just switched Teldrassil and the Undercity.

The Alliance has plenty of reasons to attack the Forsaken first without making them one-dimensional villains. The Gilneans want Gilneas back and the Lordaeronians want Lordaeron back. It's common knowledge that Sylvanas went out of her way during the largest Legion invasion the world has ever seen to antagonize one of our most powerful allies against the Legion and the holder of one of the MacGuffins we need to stop them. Finally, people still (falsely) believe that the disaster at the Broken Shore was because Sylvanas betrayed Varian and left him and his soldiers to die.

Making the Alliance the aggressors would have brought them out of the virtuous victim paradigm they've been stuck in since Cataclysm and made Sylvanas' assertion that war was unavoidable not complete nonsense. All it would have taken is a few lines of dialogue being changed.
My major issue with the story is that it's like a bunch of one-dimensional stock characters playing out a cliche story in the most flat way possible.

It's "Good Versus Evil" where evil means village-razing, civilian-burning maniacs who want to rule the world, and good means Average Joe and Average Jane fight back because they're Team Good and Team Good has to fight Team Evil.

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with using stock/archetype characters. Standard "cliche" fantasy storylines aren't inherently bad, and writing doesn't have to be perfect or as long as everything makes sense. The problem is that all three of these factors are in play, and the result is Narm levels of drama (I AM MY SCARS) and characters acting in questionable and nonsensical ways (Sylvanas is unarmed, let's... lower our weapons and make witty quips at her!)

IMO, the faction war has grown old and stale. How many times have the factions been at war, only to put the war aside and join forces against a bigger threat? What does the faction war add, from a storyline perspective, other than a shoehorned reason for one group of people to hate another group of people? What does the faction war add from a gameplay perspective?

A common misconception is that killing off old characters and introducing new ones will automatically make a story "fresh" and "dynamic". This is not always the case, especially when new characters are only different in name from the old ones, or worse, have even less characterization and personality than the characters they replaced.

The Horde has gone through four warchiefs in the span of WoW. Other than Thrall, we've had two "ha ha I'm evil" characters and one character who did pretty much nothing other than die. We're playing out the same stories with the same characters, all that changes are the backdrop and the names.

And for the "but you can see their reasoning in the novels!" that's... not really a good excuse. Is the Warcraft story defined by the novels and comics (like Overwatch or Team Fortress 2, where gameplay is episodic with little to no impact on story and the setting is shown in out-of-game sources) or is it defined by ingame content, like Dragon Age or Elder Scrolls?

Imagine if Dragon Age: Inquisition had no information about the world's lore and just said "Read the novels if you want to learn about the setting", and ended with an advertisement for a novel that contains the game's real ending.

Summed up, I think WoW's storyline suffers from the fact that it's trying to be too many things at once while catering to too many audiences. There's huge amounts of story ingame, but also huge holes in the story that can only be filled in by reading a book. We've got quests that handle dark topics like child slavery and genocide, and quests about bathroom humor. Characters are one-dimensional and simple so that they can easily be identified and placed into roles, but they're also supposedly doing "morally gray" things that can't be judged by black-and-white ideas of good and evil... while the game's entire premise is a black-and-white, Horde vs Alliance world in which good and evil are clearly defined.
09/10/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Vashta
As a void elf, being a void elf on Alliance-side makes absolutely no sense and I'm still not keen on it (though I'm willing to roll with it).

That's about the one thing I think actually has been written far better than it had any right to be. It presents a fairly compelling case for Alliance void elves, banishment from Quel'thalas, and sees the void elves putting in quite a bit of effort to be accepted by others, even if those others already assure them they are. And, hey, they're actually present in the story, unlike Lightforged.

There's not really any victim complex going on, but there is a pragmatic understanding that they're innately unlikely to be trusted, and work to prove they are without acting like martyrs.

It's still a little bit silly as a concept in general, but at least it has been repeatedly established that elves (of all sorts) are extremely susceptible to being physically changed by exposure to magical energies. So it's not entirely absurd, either.

09/10/2018 02:20 PMPosted by Dakama
Not sure how the guy's questions are dishonest. Sure, people have made their viewpoints rather clear in other threads. He's using this one to ask them to specifically state them.

The dishonesty comes in when he says "but nobody ever says why", despite so many people saying why repeatedly. It can be taken one of several ways, but basically all of them are some form of bad.

Is it saying that you, if you already stated your opinions, are invalid as a person? Or is it saying that your explanation is so bad it doesn't count? Those, to me, are the two most obvious interpretations of saying such a thing.

09/10/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Jadoth
The Horde has gone through four warchiefs in the span of WoW.

The fun thing about this one is that the Alliance actually has gone through three leaders (a regent and two kings) in the same timespan, but everyone forgets about that because it was actually handled pretty darn well.

That's about the one thing I think actually has been written far better than it had any right to be. It presents a fairly compelling case for Alliance void elves, banishment from Quel'thalas, and sees the void elves putting in quite a bit of effort to be accepted by others, even if those others already assure them they are. And, hey, they're actually present in the story, unlike Lightforged.

There's not really any victim complex going on, but there is a pragmatic understanding that they're innately unlikely to be trusted, and work to prove they are without acting like martyrs.

It's still a little bit silly as a concept in general, but at least it has been repeatedly established that elves (of all sorts) are extremely susceptible to being physically changed by exposure to magical energies. So it's not entirely absurd, either.


It's hard for me to swallow, because the Forsaken are heavily Shadow-influenced and it's hard for me to buy that the faction as a whole would decide that booting the void elves is acceptable... but I also really, really like your interpretation and appreciate it.
09/10/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Vashta
It's hard for me to swallow, because the Forsaken are heavily Shadow-influenced and it's hard for me to buy that the faction as a whole would decide that booting the void elves is acceptable... but I also really, really like your interpretation and appreciate it.

That little tidbit was, unfortunately, hidden in the Nightborne recruitment scenario, rather than the void elf one. The Sunwell had a ... Severe reaction to Alleria's presence. This would have chronologically taken place shortly before the Alliance-side scenario recruiting the void elves.

So Lor'themar banned Alleria from ever returning, and the void elves are implied to have been included in this ban -- even the ones who hadn't been exiled for being a part of Umbric's group.
Horde being written as evil, again, is not fun. At all. Sylvanas being overtly a maniacal, genocide justifying monster instead of the scheming and plotting to keep herself alive while also having a tiny fraction of her cold dead heart reserved for her love for the Forsaken is bad and kinda character assassination.

The entirety of the undead being completely evil and willing to follow Sylvanas after she kills their own allies? Pretty dumb. Even Lillian Voss doesn't question it and she hated Sylvanas for what she did to her.

Baine and the Darkspear Trolls are somehow, hilariously awfully, unwilling to even so much as have an extended argument about what she's been doing, leaving both races to once again just be backseat victims for the Horde leader to slap around so Blizz can be all "see how evil she is??? they're so innocent and sad :(((( "

The Alliance is, as it generally always is when it fights the Horde, getting beat over the head with rocks by the Horde at every major story opportunity, and only then moving to stop them with varying degrees of success. There is no great triumph, only bittersweet failure or outright bitter loss. I'm hoping this changes when we assault Dazar'alor, but I'm expecting them to pull out a screeching old god or something before we can win.

I've gone over why the Mag'har scenario is some of the worst writing Blizz has ever done in WoW again and again and again. If you liked it, good on you, but it legitimately gave me a headache to run through.

This war could have been started without attempted genocide. Sylvanas could have been worried that Greymane was and still is Anduin's chief adviser and planned to attack and cut off Darnassus by ACTUALLY CAPTURING IT instead of burning it. Hell, she could have just went to capture Darkshore and then fortify it so they could fire at whatever Alliance ships decided to try and dock at Darnassus. Greymane came after her in Viking Giants Land, and despite him being totally justified in the end, she has every reason to be suspicious that he wouldn't just sit by and expect peace from him, but to specifically point that ANDUIN, the guy who got a giant magical cast iron bell dropped on him for the sake of trying to make peace, will not keep the peace, is pretty dumb.

I like the Kul Tiras and Zandalar main stories though. King Rastakhan being dumb is canon and it's pretty funny to see him in action.
1. BfA's story feels like the Horde's story, and the Alliance is just along for the ride.

The genocide of the night elves is an unthinkably tragic event that should reverberate throughout the world of Warcraft, and yet it feels as though it is little more than a footnote in yet another story wherein the Horde have to "find" themselves. Teldrassil burns, thousands of people die, and what do we get? A lovingly rendered cinematic about how bad Saurfang feels. But don't worry! Thanks to a baby-faced troll twink, he quickly reaffirms his loyalty to a sociopolitical entity that sets babies on fire.

"But what about the short story!" you cry, the butthurt welling up inside you. A short story that barely touches on the aftermath of Teldrassil, and isn't even wholly focused on the night elves, is cold comfort. If anything, it's a slap in the face. The text affirms that what just happened was a genocide, and then the night elves are immediately put on a shelf. No cinematic. No questline. Not even a poorly-drawn comic!

"But what about the siege of Lordaeron!" you scream, now quite red in the face. You mean the Pyrrhic victory that the Alliance only managed to barely pull off thanks to a series of deus ex machina? All Sylvanas needs to destroy a magical tree the size of a small nation is some catapults, but the full might of the Alliance army can't even take a single city. Woo. It doesn't help that Blizzard intentionally benched anything that might give the Alliance an edge, to make things more dramatic (for the Horde).

Where are the night elves in all this? Growing pumpkins in Stormwind, because the story isn't about them. It's about the Horde's personal struggle! Oh, the pathos.

This theme is continued in the Alliance war campaign, in which the Alliance gets to kill a couple of nobodies who don't matter, and in the ~grand finale~ take out a vampire who probably would have done more damage to the Horde if he'd been left alive. And if that wasn't enough, the Alliance is oh so graciously allowed to go out of their way to deal with the Horde's Old God problem.

The Alliance does finally get to do some #MorallyGray stuff, but absolutely none of it is directed at the Horde, so it all feels rather pointless.

The Horde is once again struggling with a personal, internal dilemma.

The Alliance is once again the Boring Good Guys cleaning up the Horde's messes.

And you best believe that if the Horde does end up deposing Sylvanas, they'll be crying for the Alliance's help. Which they'll get, because the Alliance is spineless.

2. Being the focus of the story is not a good thing, and the reversal of roles.

Mind you, it's not all sunshine and daisies for the Horde. The decision to make the Horde player complicit in genocide is a profoundly tacky one, and beating the Horde as a whole with the villain stick in a less nuanced repeat of the Garrosh storyline isn't what I'd consider a good time, though I'm sure the, uh, usual suspects are having tons of fun with it.

Horde players were sold a theme that is radically different than what we see playing out in BfA. Where the Horde was once a loose band of disenfranchised outcasts trying to survive in a world that hated and feared them, they are now a warmongering empire headed by a woman whose stated goal is to kill hope, while the Alliance are the scrappy underdogs who just want to be left alone.

The Horde wants to kill or subjugate everyone who isn't like them.

The Alliance just wants to survive, but Blizzard has deemed that they can't be anything other than lily-white, thus they will never strike a serious blow to their persecutors.

3. Holding patterns.

I've already touched on this in the paragraphs above, but I'm gonna spell it out for y'all anyway.

BfA is a familiar song and dance, even if it's been dressed up rather nicely. The Horde does something, in this case something profoundly monstrous, and the Alliance reacts to it in a way that won't disturb the status quo. The Horde gets to be aggressive and dynamic, the Alliance gets to be meek and passive. Think of how different things might be if the siege of Lordaeron came before the burning of Teldrassil. Yes, different does not always equal better, but boy this song and dance is getting stale.

And just how is Blizzard going to "resolve" this? How could it possibly make sense for the Alliance to forgive the Horde for everything they've done? How could anyone possibly expect the night elves to ever move on from what happened to Teldrassil? Or are the night elves such non-characters now that it doesn't matter?
One of the biggest, and most glaring issues I have with the story is what it's done and who it seems to be written for. No names, no pointing fingers, just a general statement.

It pits Alliance against Horde. Then, when Horde players started showing unease, it pits Horde players against other Horde players. The whole situation has been divisive, and I hold zero doubt it was anything but intentional.

I don't approve of it.


09/10/2018 02:20 PMPosted by Dakama
Not sure how the guy's questions are dishonest. Sure, people have made their viewpoints rather clear in other threads. He's using this one to ask them to specifically state them.

The dishonesty comes in when he says "but nobody ever says why", despite so many people saying why repeatedly. It can be taken one of several ways, but basically all of them are some form of bad.

Is it saying that you, if you already stated your opinions, are invalid as a person? Or is it saying that your explanation is so bad it doesn't count? Those, to me, are the two most obvious interpretations of saying such a thing.


Let me clear this up, because it's obviously being taken the wrong way: When I said that I never see anyone explain why, I mean that I - me, myself, only I - have not seen it. I don't come to the forums very often, and some people in this thread are showing why I choose to typically avoid this place.

I'm sure they've made their opinions clear -somewhere- on the forums, but I am unaware. I have only seen folks complaining, but again I do not come here often.
I'll just be happy if Jaina kills Rexxar and steals his stupid batman mask.
09/10/2018 04:11 PMPosted by Kureya
The whole situation has been divisive, and I hold zero doubt it was anything but intentional.

The last time Blizzard tried something like this, Morhaime had to apologize for giving a dude a platform to hurl homophobic slurs at Alliance players.

I'm still not sure why they're trying to repeat that.
09/10/2018 04:13 PMPosted by Sulthorne
I'm sure they've made their opinions clear -somewhere- on the forums, but I am unaware. I have only seen folks complaining, but again I do not come here often.

Here are two threads from the front page of the WrA forums to start on:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768637387

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20768796753

That covers most of the recent discussion.
Personally, I loved Drustvar. I thought the story there was totally cohesive and I really enjoyed navigating my way through it. Tiragarde Sound was good too, but a bit more disjointed... not a full cohesive story, and questing took me all over at different times unlike Drustvar.

But Stormsong Valley, aside from being gorgeous... I just was not into the story at all. It felt completely disconnected, random and assorted stories here and there, no cohesiveness.

Overall, I really have enjoyed the heck out of this expansion. I haven't really gotten to the Horde areas at all yet (soon, soon!) but I'm looking forward to it.

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