Unhooking Renewing Mist from Vivify ?

Monk
As some of you may know the current form of Vivify heals it's main/selected target and can then heal any targets that have Renewing Misting on them for a slightly smaller heal. This is very reminiscent of the Uplift spell from a long time ago.

Just like Uplift though this current form of Vivify has the same "hoop to be jumped through" or issue of requiring Renewing Mist to be active on as many people as possible to be effective as the fewer Renewing Mists that are active the less effective and mana efficient of a spell it becomes.

My question or rather proposal i suppose is why not go back to the previous version of Vivify that we had before where it would simply be a cleave heal healing the selected/main target and only two additional targets for a smaller about without the requirement of Renewing Mist.

While i could understand the argument that with the current version you could possible heal more than two targets, perhaps even four depending on talents and how you time the spell, but by the same token if you miss/forget/or simply in a position that you need the heal from vivify but don't have the HOT's out then you lose out on the healing but still pay the same mana cost.

Reverting to an older version of Vivify i think would take this heal from it's current place which has a degree of a skill curve (which has a low end and a high end for effective healing varying on the number of Renewing mists you have out) and simplify it to a middle ground thus taking the skill curve out but still being a balanced heal spell.
I don't understand the post. Why do you want to remove the skill curve?

I love the current iteration of vivify. I wish the spread was a bit higher (more average rms out) and the healing a bit lower per target, but it's fine the way it is too.
Not gonna happen.

Is this just looking for opinions? Then no, I don't agree. I like being able to hit more than 3.
The only reason why I'd prefer Legion's vivify, is because I know it's going to 'cleave' into 2 other targets whose health is the lowest of the lot.

Would be nice if ReM was a little more active hopping about in the same manner.
09/19/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Kineological
I don't understand the post. Why do you want to remove the skill curve?

I love the current iteration of vivify. I wish the spread was a bit higher (more average rms out) and the healing a bit lower per target, but it's fine the way it is too.


is there a skill curve or is it just use ReM on cooldown and hope to god it's on the right people when !@#$ hits the fan?
09/19/2018 06:37 PMPosted by Oriana
09/19/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Kineological
I don't understand the post. Why do you want to remove the skill curve?

I love the current iteration of vivify. I wish the spread was a bit higher (more average rms out) and the healing a bit lower per target, but it's fine the way it is too.


is there a skill curve or is it just use ReM on cooldown and hope to god it's on the right people when !@#$ hits the fan?

Or hold the charge to line up with incoming damage sources and make sure its on the right target(s), or hold the charge to use it on a post-essence font target for mastery heal.

I didn't say the skill cap was high, but making it passively cleave to hurt targets certainly lowers it.
I preferred vivify in Legion

I also miss having Effuse/Sheilun, our healing kit feels dry.
09/19/2018 06:52 PMPosted by Kineological
09/19/2018 06:37 PMPosted by Oriana
...

is there a skill curve or is it just use ReM on cooldown and hope to god it's on the right people when !@#$ hits the fan?

Or hold the charge to line up with incoming damage sources and make sure its on the right target(s), or hold the charge to use it on a post-essence font target for mastery heal.

I didn't say the skill cap was high, but making it passively cleave to hurt targets certainly lowers it.


Well if you hold it like that you're only getting 3 people and to get all 5 you really want to be casting it sooner.
Part of my thinking was by unhooking the two spells from each other you could decide how you want to use the spells independently. Maybe you would want to hold on to charges up Renewing Mist for when damage comes out or as someone else suggested to take advantage of essence font with the double mastery proc.

Maybe another person is they type to just use Renewing Mist on Cd because it is useful on it's own to just set it and forget it kind of a heal as it floats around.

Same thing for vivify. Maybe you want a basic cleave/aoe ( ok not exactly an aoe but kinda a half of one) for when need a little healing but don't want to use essence font just yet. Or maybe essence font is on Cd and you need to use something else in the mean time because you are in a 10-15 sec damage phase.

I was even told by one person they liked the idea of forgoing soothing mist for vivify casts because they knew the mastery would proc on the main target each cast as compared to 1 proc every 8 ticks or so on soothing mist.

Just reiterating i suppose the idea was that unhooking them would make the spells a little easier to use and open up more play-styles for people as opposed to keeping them hooked together
With the current way Vivify works, I feel the constant pressure to be keeping a 100% uptime on ReM. On affixes like Bursting, the clunkiness of MW healing is extremely prominent. Having to ensure that you have 2 ReM up all the time before the pull is not the problem. The problem comes when those HoTs fall off during back-to-back pulls in Bursting. I find myself having to do the following with 7-8 stacks of bursting

Target1: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)

Everything is all and good if there are no other sources of damage coming from other places. However that isn't always the case (of course people are supposed to use cooldowns for huge pulls during bursting, assume they are on CD for the purpose of this post). During a fight, even with proactive placements of ReM, the terror you feel when you look at the mob health dropping dangerously low too fast, and you look at your bars and realise EYYY 2 charges of ReM. Then you need close to 3s (GCDs) to setup your AoE healing, and another 6s (GCDs) to complete the rotation mentioned above (please note that the rotation isn't even the full rotation, one would definitely need more Viv or even a EF inside). During that time, if a Bursting dot at 6 stacks ticks for 2s and goes to 7 stacks, it can be deadly very fast. The room for error and reaction is very short and prioritization of your targets is extremely important.

Ultimately, I feel that the current system feels a little slow in reaction and a little punishing. Perhaps taking SooM or ReM off the GCD would make it so much better. Or even make ReM have a larger instant heal (100% crit on the Gust heal?) or some other instant heals. One might argue that perhaps as we get more haste in the future, MW healing might feel better, but the azerite system removes 3 major sources of secondary stats. Hopefully we hear some news about this soon!
09/19/2018 11:09 PMPosted by Qadir
With the current way Vivify works, I feel the constant pressure to be keeping a 100% uptime on ReM. On affixes like Bursting, the clunkiness of MW healing is extremely prominent. Having to ensure that you have 2 ReM up all the time before the pull is not the problem. The problem comes when those HoTs fall off during back-to-back pulls in Bursting. I find myself having to do the following with 7-8 stacks of bursting

Target1: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)

Everything is all and good if there are no other sources of damage coming from other places. However that isn't always the case (of course people are supposed to use cooldowns for huge pulls during bursting, assume they are on CD for the purpose of this post). During a fight, even with proactive placements of ReM, the terror you feel when you look at the mob health dropping dangerously low too fast, and you look at your bars and realise EYYY 2 charges of ReM. Then you need close to 3s (GCDs) to setup your AoE healing, and another 6s (GCDs) to complete the rotation mentioned above (please note that the rotation isn't even the full rotation, one would definitely need more Viv or even a EF inside). During that time, if a Bursting dot at 6 stacks ticks for 2s and goes to 7 stacks, it can be deadly very fast. The room for error and reaction is very short and prioritization of your targets is extremely important.

Ultimately, I feel that the current system feels a little slow in reaction and a little punishing. Perhaps taking SooM or ReM off the GCD would make it so much better. Or even make ReM have a larger instant heal (100% crit on the Gust heal?) or some other instant heals. One might argue that perhaps as we get more haste in the future, MW healing might feel better, but the azerite system removes 3 major sources of secondary stats. Hopefully we hear some news about this soon!


Well articulated and I agree.

I think reducing the SooM GCD From 1.0 to .5 would cut down on the clunkiness (and PVPers who are used to AMA from Legion would be happy too).
09/19/2018 11:09 PMPosted by Qadir
During that time, if a Bursting dot at 6 stacks ticks for 2s and goes to 7 stacks, it can be deadly very fast.

Thing is, if this is happening often your dps are bad and need to stagger kills to 3-4 stacks. Bursting is as much a dps affix as a healer affix, they need to also pop a cooldown if stacks get high or use a potion, anything.

Now you are also going about healing situations like this in the wrong way. You need to check these links out:
https://www.peakofserenity.com/bfa/mistweaver/guide/ https://www.peakofserenity.com/2018/06/13/soothing_mist/

Dont soothing mist into vivify, (esp not if you intend to spam it) that is why you are getting a ton of gcd's. (read the links)

The few times my pugs last week ramped up 7-8+ stacks of bolstering I most likely saw it coming via health of mobs all going down together and size of pack. Under 5 stacks:
I was unloading usually fully charged upwelling-Essence fonts and it would cover it. ( still managing ren mists, so if things kept getting out of control Id be able to go into vivify spam )

Quickly going over 5 stacks I would:
-Pop Dampen Harm out of habit for me, or Fortified Tea if that was on cd
-Maybe cocoon someone squishy ( my mage friend or the tank if he had adds ) but deff use chi-ji before.
-Still maintaining renmist as bolster ramps up
-Essence Font quickly(for mastery effect)
-Spam the hell out of vivify on the lowest target(s) while still managing ren mists and trying not to OOM ( the affix doesnt last long anyways ) and I had tons of potions. One vivify+2x mastery was a huge chunk of their health ( over half )
-IF I still fell behind or it ramped up that fast or lasted longer I used revival which heals a good 1/4 to 2/5 of everyone's health instantly and dispelled any bad ( lots in bfa )

(-Maybe SooMisted->EnvMist the tank if they needed it quickly and go back to what I was doing.)

It was more than enough as long as I was drinking mana between packs and the tank knew with Bursting it took 3 more sec to drop combat.

You are also healing with an agi staff, and dps trinkets so..... I dunno man, everything combined you are just setting yourself up to have a very hard time. Your stats are also all over the place for m+ healing.
I do see some issues to why it wouldn't be optimal. For instance, we can't replace ReM whenever we want, so we may not have it on the RIGHT people for the next vivify. However, it is a higher risk, higher reward scenario from legion.
The only time it feels like a nerf to me is when I'm Fistweaving. It's super annoying to devote GCDs to Renewing Mist when we have low haste and 0 instants.

Losing our instant Enveloping Mist with TFT really hurts when we're GCD capped dpsing. It feels really bad to stand still in melee range, use Soothing Mist and then use Enveloping Mist 1s later as our "emergency heal".

We're more proactive than we are in Legion, and it just doesn't feel good when we're supposed to be a melee range healer.
09/19/2018 11:45 PMPosted by Hadhit
09/19/2018 11:09 PMPosted by Qadir
During that time, if a Bursting dot at 6 stacks ticks for 2s and goes to 7 stacks, it can be deadly very fast.

Thing is, if this is happening often your dps are bad and need to stagger kills to 3-4 stacks. Bursting is as much a dps affix as a healer affix, they need to also pop a cooldown if stacks get high or use a potion, anything.

Now you are also going about healing situations like this in the wrong way. You need to check these links out:
https://www.peakofserenity.com/bfa/mistweaver/guide/ https://www.peakofserenity.com/2018/06/13/soothing_mist/

Dont soothing mist into vivify, (esp not if you intend to spam it) that is why you are getting a ton of gcd's. (read the links)

The few times my pugs last week ramped up 7-8+ stacks of bolstering I most likely saw it coming via health of mobs all going down together and size of pack. Under 5 stacks:
I was unloading usually fully charged upwelling-Essence fonts and it would cover it. ( still managing ren mists, so if things kept getting out of control Id be able to go into vivify spam )

Quickly going over 5 stacks I would:
-Pop Dampen Harm out of habit for me, or Fortified Tea if that was on cd
-Maybe cocoon someone squishy ( my mage friend or the tank if he had adds ) but deff use chi-ji before.
-Still maintaining renmist as bolster ramps up
-Essence Font quickly(for mastery effect)
-Spam the hell out of vivify on the lowest target(s) while still managing ren mists and trying not to OOM ( the affix doesnt last long anyways ) and I had tons of potions. One vivify+2x mastery was a huge chunk of their health ( over half )
-IF I still fell behind or it ramped up that fast or lasted longer I used revival which heals a good 1/4 to 2/5 of everyone's health instantly and dispelled any bad ( lots in bfa )

(-Maybe SooMisted->EnvMist the tank if they needed it quickly and go back to what I was doing.)

It was more than enough as long as I was drinking mana between packs and the tank knew with Bursting it took 3 more sec to drop combat.

You are also healing with an agi staff, and dps trinkets so..... I dunno man, everything combined you are just setting yourself up to have a very hard time. Your stats are also all over the place for m+ healing.


Duddddddddeeeeeeee, why would you think I'll heal with an agility staff and dps trinkets. (I did do that when BFA first came out hahaha for lack of a better option of a weapon)

Well I honestly think any kind of healer can handle 5-6 stacks of bursting (assuming it is not staggered kills). I believe that limiting the stacks to 3-4 really limits the potential of your group. In legion, I would advise the group to pull as they normally do, especially with arcway worm/spider pull. Kill everything and pop defensives. At most let everyone else die and keep yourself alive to mass rez. I did check out the guides, and honestly I didn't glean much new info from those guides other than the SooM behind the scenes mechanics. I play this game pretty much by reading the tooltips and figuring it out on my own. That's how I figured out that there's a unique interaction with EF and gusts (and this is one of the rare interactions in a class that I love).

Let's assume that we are all competent players here and we know how to heal with the basic mechanics and whatever stat prioritization and stuff like that. I'm trying to bring across the point that the increase in GCDs narrows the margin of error for MW. Especially when the tank is taking heavy amounts of damage with the rest of the group also taking damage. With mana tea and your defensives all on GCD, being extremely efficient with how you use those GCDs is ever more important.
I didn't play a monk before BfA, so I can't comment on how things used to be. What I can say is that I like the connection between vivify and ReM both in terms of gameplay and aesthetics.

When healing, I like the idea of targeting my vivify so as to either optimize efficiency, vivify someone without ReM to hit three people, or to optimize burst, hitting someone with ReM for the double or even go soothing mist > vivify on someone with ReM if that someone is taking a real beating.

Aesthetically, the mistweaver spec should weave mists... soothing mist makes vivify and enveloping mist instant on you target, ReM has the vivify cleave, essence font HoT has the double master on your other mists, etc. MW heals should build on each other, be affected by each other, to evoke the feel of... mistweaving.
09/20/2018 12:55 AMPosted by Qadir
Let's assume that we are all competent players here and we know how to heal with the basic mechanics and whatever stat prioritization and stuff like that. I'm trying to bring across the point that the increase in GCDs narrows the margin of error for MW.


You are literally global-ing yourself, reducing how much time you have to react to things, and your excuse is to blame it on the class' design or gcd changes?

Try learning how to properly MW and maybe you'll find that margin of error isn't as narrow as you originally though because the way you are healing is wrong especially when you need to pump out tons of healing in a few globals:

09/19/2018 11:09 PMPosted by Qadir
Target1: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)

^This is why you are global locked and dont have any time to react to anything btw. Spam vivify the 3 times on the lowest person, dont waste 3 globals with soothing mist's for vivify if you intend to use vivify more than once. In those 3 extra GCD's you could have refreshed a RenMist, prob got a quick essence font off and started another vivify(in no specific order). You could have even swapped to SoothingMist+EnvMist on the tank if they are not doing great. But you wasted 3 GCD on soothing mists and I hope to the old gods and new you are not manually selecting targets before all of this. Properly managing RenMist beforehand and during removes the need to panic-refresh it during the times you need to vivify spam or do other stuff.

09/20/2018 12:55 AMPosted by Qadir
being extremely efficient with how you use those GCDs is ever more important.

This has also been important for mythic raiding and m+ since forever so nothing changes. Maximizing your GCD's was a thing way before the recent changes.

09/20/2018 12:55 AMPosted by Qadir
I believe that limiting the stacks to 3-4 really limits the potential of your group. In legion

This has been a common way to deal with the affix since it was created, unless the pack consists of like 10+ easy to kill mobs and your dps are too stupid to watch a 5 sec debuff and hold their aoe dps for a few seconds. Yes if you get 10+ stacks and have no cooldowns up then you only heal yourself and the tank and rez the group to prevent everyone from having to run back and waste more time, but each death still takes time off your counter so it will hurt you more pulling this crap over and over compared to your dps actually managing the stacks properly.

I pointed out your agi items because you were still in mistweaver and agi is useless for MW. After you described how you healed I assumed it might not be by accident but could/should have left the current gear comments out for the most part.
09/19/2018 11:09 PMPosted by Qadir
With the current way Vivify works, I feel the constant pressure to be keeping a 100% uptime on ReM. On affixes like Bursting, the clunkiness of MW healing is extremely prominent. Having to ensure that you have 2 ReM up all the time before the pull is not the problem. The problem comes when those HoTs fall off during back-to-back pulls in Bursting. I find myself having to do the following with 7-8 stacks of bursting

Target1: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)
Switch Target: SooM (GCD) Vivify (GCD)


If you're switching targets you don't want to cast SooM. In this situation, hardcasting Vivify is the best way to go. The only time you SooM at all is if you're going to be casting several spells on a single target - so burst single target healing is all it's used for. So SooM>Vivify>Vivify or SooM>EM>Vivify, etc. But if you're going to switch between several people and single target heal them, it's faster to hard cast it. SooM into EM and Vivify is clunky because it's meant to be done when focusing on one person, in which case it feels much smoother.
I like it the way it is because it allows extra burst on tanks as well. If you have renewing mist on a tank and cast vivify on him/her you get; vivify heal, mastery heal, and the renewing mist vivify heal allowing for some awesome burst.
If you have essesence font up you gain yet another mastery heal. If you take the vivify component away you will take away some of our burst making 5 mans more difficult.
09/20/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Injie
I like it the way it is because it allows extra burst on tanks as well. If you have renewing mist on a tank and cast vivify on him/her you get; vivify heal, mastery heal, and the renewing mist vivify heal allowing for some awesome burst.
If you have essesence font up you gain yet another mastery heal. If you take the vivify component away you will take away some of our burst making 5 mans more difficult.


Doesn't compare to EM > Sheilun combo in Legion. That was one hell of a tank heal.

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