Nerf Blood DK CORRECTLY

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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10/16/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Killshót
10/16/2018 07:40 AMPosted by Naros
That's irrelevant.

It is relevant. Not every player can do something that other player did. Method can do world first Ghuun, can you? Ofc not...

10/16/2018 07:40 AMPosted by Naros
But that is comparing apples to oranges here.

It's not. The point is BDK's isn't op as ppl are making it. Other tanks may be a bit undertuned, but that's about it...
The part about people thinking BDK are op is fact, look at the numerous examples posted and videos. your statement that other tanks are just a bit under tuned is laughable. Bears and warriors and not just a bit under tuned. Why do not post on your BDK main instead of an alt hunter..
They need to bring Guardian and Protection Warrior up, not bring Blood and Brewmaster down. This is a silly thread.

Yes, yes. I know, I'm on a Blood Death Knight right now. If they decided tomorrow to apply the patented Blizzard Wheel of Misfortune to Blood (mind you, this happened to Protection Warrior when Ignore Pain was nicknamed Ignore Game and they haven't bounced back yet), you're not going to end up with a fair playing field, you're going to end up with a tank drought again.

They've introduced three classes to the game, all of which can tank, three core classes can tank, and yet tanking is still in extremely high demand, even while it's fun.

Nerfing Brew and Blood won't solve that. Bringing Guardian and Protection up? Now that's the ticket.

I've played 4 of the 6 tanks at 120 so far (Protection Warrior/Paladin, Guardian, Blood) not at the highest levels but they all got their faces smashed in Mythic+ and a few Heroic Uldir bosses, and it's not that I settled on Blood being "objectively" better, but rather that it's just more fun to play, mostly because my offense and defense abilities are generally linked. I still have to make decisions on which to hit the big ones, but the "passive" mitigation phase is more enjoyable, and more of the dungeon / raid is the passive mitigation phase.

Casting Death Strike feels good because you're continuing to contribute while you calculate when is the best time to cast it, just casting Hand of the Protector does not. It has a cool animation, quality crunch, and I'm doing my part to help kill the boss.

Casting Marrowrend to juggle Bone Shield feels good because I can decide whether I can lose another charge or two in favor of helping down this pack with Heart Strike cleaves, pressing Shield Block/Ignore Pain or Ironfur on cooldown which both eats a GCD and drains resources does not. I can't Maul, I have to keep my "Well I was going to get hit anyway" ability up. I can't Thunder Clap right now, I have to raise my shield and still take damage.

Blood honestly has a handful of unfun moments and it's fair share of problems, you can still get obliterated in a bad parry/dodge drought doing routine things, Death and Decay is "expensive" to put down without a proc especially during encounters where area denial is part and parcel which in turn lowers threat, damage output, and often times your ability to kite, etc. The real problem is Guardian and Protection Warrior have an UNfair share of those same problems.

We all need to be brought to the same playing field. Enough of the "It's okay for some specs to just be better at certain roles" malarky when those certain roles are critical for the survival of the game. Everyone should be successful in this role in their own unique way, not arbitrarily assigned some sort of "Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 0" rating system.

And it should always, always be fun.
10/16/2018 11:17 AMPosted by Opherial
Nerfing Brew and Blood won't solve that. Bringing Guardian and Protection up? Now that's the ticket.
I agree with just about every point you made except this one. The problem right now isn't brining other tanks up to BDK and Brew level, because they are NOT what tanks are supposed to be capable of doing right now. Yes bears and druid need to be brought up, but in-line with blizzard's ideals for tanking. As well on to your other points that i agreed with, they're missing core functioning mechanics that BDK's have all available to them
What tanks are supposed to be doing or capable of is a constantly moving goal post and not one I'd be comfortable hanging my hat on.

Respectfully, this is a 24 page long thread that I only saw today and I'm not really keen on reading through all of it. To promote conversation, can you run down exactly what it is that you think Blood has that's so grievously out of place? Self-healing isn't unique to them. Health pool increasing isn't unique to them. Receiving more healing isn't unique to them. Merging damage and defense isn't unique to them. They have only one mobility button (two if you spec for it, which few should with how good Grasp of the Dead is). Even Anti-Magic Shell has been kind of reduced in uniqueness by a few other tank classes having their physical damage reduction abilities made into flat damage reduction abilities making Magic Damage no longer that scary.

What we don't have is being able to heal others, buff others, we lost Vampiric Aura, we can't dash, blink out of damage, dash, and have IIRC the second lowest AoE damage, we don't have a root break unless we spec for it, let alone an AoE one, our "Shield Wall" is the weakest with I believe the second longest cooldown (forgive me for not knowing much about Demon Hunter, I didn't play that much during Legion so I never really leveled one.), our one "major" DPS cooldown is pretty lackluster but going back to Offense+Defense marriage it also increases our Parry. I don't want any of these things, I want them to be unique to the rest of the classes (well, I wouldn't mind Vampiric Aura back), I just want everyone to have the items I listed above. That should be the baseline of "Tank." Being the master of your own fate within reason, and not having to decide between contributing nothing or dying.

I'm in a work meeting so I'm just going off the top of my head, but I'd be genuinely interested in hearing more.
10/16/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Killshót
10/16/2018 07:40 AMPosted by Naros
That's irrelevant.

It is relevant. Not every player can do something that other player did. Method can do world first Ghuun, can you? Ofc not...

10/16/2018 07:40 AMPosted by Naros
But that is comparing apples to oranges here.

It's not. The point is BDK's isn't op as ppl are making it. Other tanks may be a bit undertuned, but that's about it...


That's all relative. If they want to bring all the tanks up to BDK level, then there will need to be some MASSIVE buffs to Warriors and Druids, and some slight buffs to Paladins. That would probably be harder to do than to bring BDK down a notch or two.
10/16/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Muffinass
That's all relative. If they want to bring all the tanks up to BDK level, then there will need to be some MASSIVE buffs to Warriors and Druids, and some slight buffs to Paladins. That would probably be harder to do than to bring BDK down a notch or two.


I don't disagree, but MASSIVE buffs to Protection and Guardian is what the game needs. It's what the players deserve, and it's what will keep the game fun in a time when there's a huge vocal component of the community lamenting that they aren't having fun.

Bringing the classes that are having fun down to where all the "We're not having fun, we're gonna quit" people are is a net negative. It helps nobody but the vindictive who enjoy the feeling of pyrrhic joy that now everyone is miserable, until "The Pros" rotate around and go "Well uh, now we all take Vengeance Demon Hunters (insert whichever other tank you want) and you still aren't having fun playing Guardian or Protection and everyone rushes to reroll or quit.

Protection Warrior for example I followed closer because I've been a Prot War longer than I was a Blood DK, and the amount of times they waffled or backpedaled on changes to manage Ignore Pain and other damage reduction makes me think they have no idea what to do with them. That doesn't sound like something that's going to be fixed with a minor buff and a major nerf to Brew/Blood/Veng, that sounds like something Blizzard OWES Protection Warriors to fix in 8.1.
10/16/2018 06:51 AMPosted by Killshót
10/16/2018 06:24 AMPosted by Brokenclaws
Lets get some videos going of 5 man tank teams running +15s that are not blood in the current expac.

Let's start with Blood DK's first. Because I haven't seen any 5 man +15 BDK videos.


I haven't seen any videos of 5 prot warriors doing +10 but you had no problem suggesting any tank could do it.
Here is a good read for any blood dk that thinks everything is fine. You guys need major nerfs starting with bonestorm and gorefiends grasp. Also consider it a blessing you guys went unnoticed and kept death strike the way it was. An ability that heals, does damage and places an absorb shield all in one while other tanks would have to deal with at least two gcd to pull that off.

Would other tanks prefer to be buffed? Sure but we are talking major utility and survivability changes for every other tank. They have stated their design for tanks this expansion is such that they will need a healer. Either they change the design of their tank philosophy or they change dk.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287949/jdotb-bfa-q-a-6-blood-dks-in-the-tank-meta-arcane-torrent-and-faction-imbalance
10/15/2018 08:42 PMPosted by Furby

I don't usually have issues getting into 10 or 11's haven't had the guts to que for a 12 or higher but pallys shouldn't have trouble getting into 10s if a silly ole bear can get into them


Strange we have differing experiences. I've had serious trouble queuing for 10's last week (where it was easy AF affixes).
Will of the Necrotic just got nerfed by 5% to 30% instead of 35 %

Veteran of the Third War just got it's armor bonus stripped.

These are good nerfs but do nothing for gutting their kit to be comparable to all the other tanks.

Source
https://www.wowhead.com/news=287975/patch-8-1-ptr-build-28151-achievement-mounts-class-and-spell-changes
10/17/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Doomber
Will of the Necrotic just got nerfed by 5% to 30% instead of 35 %

Veteran of the Third War just got it's armor bonus stripped.

These are good nerfs but do nothing for gutting their kit to be comparable to all the other tanks.

Source
https://www.wowhead.com/news=287975/patch-8-1-ptr-build-28151-achievement-mounts-class-and-spell-changes

Thats all they can do they wont remove abilities or talents just cause ppl are !@#$%ing about blood utility just like they wont remove rogues utilities and survivabilities
I'll never understand why people ask for nerfs to specs. They should instead be buffing the crappy ones.

10/17/2018 02:28 PMPosted by Gurthäng
10/17/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Doomber
Will of the Necrotic just got nerfed by 5% to 30% instead of 35 %

Veteran of the Third War just got it's armor bonus stripped.

These are good nerfs but do nothing for gutting their kit to be comparable to all the other tanks.

Source
https://www.wowhead.com/news=287975/patch-8-1-ptr-build-28151-achievement-mounts-class-and-spell-changes

Thats all they can do they wont remove abilities or talents just cause ppl are !@#$%ing about blood utility just like they wont remove rogues utilities and survivabilities


Guardians from Legion say hi when they stripped Mark of Ursol midway through the expansion.
10/17/2018 02:28 PMPosted by Pewpewbrast
I'll never understand why people ask for nerfs to specs. They should instead be buffing the crappy ones.

10/17/2018 02:28 PMPosted by Gurthäng
...
Thats all they can do they wont remove abilities or talents just cause ppl are !@#$%ing about blood utility just like they wont remove rogues utilities and survivabilities


Guardians from Legion say hi when they stripped Mark of Ursol midway through the expansion.

Wasnt that making guardians ridiculously op, way more than a blood will ever be?
No, currently BDK is superior to what guardians were vs other tanks in legion and guardians got nerfed almost constantly and had mark of ursol removed. The changes made will not seriously affect Mythics for BDK. The self healing is still op. I do not think the reduction in armor is warranted as this will reduce their effective health on hard hitting bosses. Bears and warriors still need buffs.
Nerfing bdk without buffing guardian and prot war isnt going to make people want you in their groups btw.
Wow, people want BDK completely gutted. I've seen people calling for the self healing, utility and for Bonestorm to be removed.

Lmao do you even have a spec left anymore after that??
10/17/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Molecula
Wow, people want BDK completely gutted. I've seen people calling for the self healing, utility and for Bonestorm to be removed.

Lmao do you even have a spec left anymore after that??


Here is my thing. I like flavor. I don't mind certain tanks being good in different ways as long as they are balanced across the board.

What I mean by flavor is I think it's fine if Blood DK have high self healing and good utility.
I think it would be fine if prot warrior had really high mitigation but low self healing/self sustain.
I think it would be fine if prot paladin (moderate self sustain and moderate mitigation) was in a way a mix of the two and so on down the line.

This gives players choice in what they want to play.
Do I want to play a tank with super crazy self healing but I'm going to take more overall damage?
Do I want to play a tank that has super high mitigation but low self healing/recovery?
Do I want to play a tank that has a mixture of both worlds?

The problem is that they made it clear that they want tanks to rely more heavily on healers this expansion. So they either need to change their outlook on tanks all together or start hitting blood dk with some nerfs.

The other problem is utility. Grip, grasp and battle res are very strong. No other tank has anything that comes close to comparing to DK utility. Even if they made all tanks balanced somehow you would have major utility imbalances. Again I think it's fine for different tanks to have different strengths and utility but you can't have one tank with the best of everything while other tanks bring little to be desired.
10/17/2018 07:46 PMPosted by Exposed
The problem is that they made it clear that they want tanks to rely more heavily on healers this expansion


So what I'm gathering from your overly long, mental gymnastics post is: homogenize all tanks, make them the same. Redesign BDK, but leave the others.

Wow! I'm speechless right now.

Remove BDK utility, self-healing and Bonestorm oh and redesign them because the self-healing doesn't fit the game anymore, lmao!!!!

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