How to fix Prot Warriors

Warrior
09/27/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Bonzel
I agree i don't think our utility is broken as much as number wise it doesn't stack up to other tanks.

Lowest health pool of all tanks

only tanks that don't have a self heal(unless talented, not even a fair trade off for into the fray)

to say the least in raiding we are by far the Super Squishy tank that no one wants(straight decline when qued)

hope Blizz fixes us soon. first time since vanilla i actually need to change my prot warrior as a main because it feels unplayable for what I enjoy doing, and i don't want to.


Monk has the lowest hp and pretty sorry self healing. BUT they have incredibly potent mitigation with basically permanent uptime to compensate. That’s where we fall down. We don’t need to heal, but we do need to be able to effectively reduce damage all the time. Yet at the moment, block only has about 30-40% uptime and IP is decidedly unreliable.
09/27/2018 09:42 AMPosted by Caargon
09/27/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Bonzel
I agree i don't think our utility is broken as much as number wise it doesn't stack up to other tanks.

Lowest health pool of all tanks

only tanks that don't have a self heal(unless talented, not even a fair trade off for into the fray)

to say the least in raiding we are by far the Super Squishy tank that no one wants(straight decline when qued)

hope Blizz fixes us soon. first time since vanilla i actually need to change my prot warrior as a main because it feels unplayable for what I enjoy doing, and i don't want to.


Monk has the lowest hp and pretty sorry self healing. BUT they have incredibly potent mitigation with basically permanent uptime to compensate. That’s where we fall down. We don’t need to heal, but we do need to be able to effectively reduce damage all the time. Yet at the moment, block only has about 30-40% uptime and IP is decidedly unreliable.


Not saying i know it all and i'm basing off raiding where i've seen monks with same IL at warrior have more hp.

And agreed not to say we need a self heal( the idea of tanking is to take less damage then other classes.DPS) just as it does help fill the gap sometimes.
Ignore pain is broken for sure as by the time its up its off and we don't have a good mitigation flow currently as when shield block drops off we take a beating.

again i'm not saying i know all the number crunches just that this is the first time i truly feel we are broken as a tank class and it just depressing to see the class i like playing is turning into the class no one wants to invite thus i'm not able to play the class i enjoy.
It's pretty safe to say that a monk is purely E.HP. They have brew up at all times, thus considering it as their actual health is reasonable.

They have "self" healing in the fact that they can clear half their stagger. Sure, its not word for word, but it's just as effective.

A perfect example of this is how terrible thrash becomes a wet noodle vs a BrM. Their effective hp and effective healing is just insane.
Yes, that’s my point. Monk doesn’t have high hp or healing, but they have enough raw, stable mitigation that it doesn’t matter. Warriors could follow a similar model if we had some consistency on our mitigation.
How to fix warrior, take IP off the GCD.

I don't think much else is needed. The class is fun to play at the moment, and our toolkit is much better than last expansion.

There is no issue with spell dmg taken, were actually strong for that. Self healing has never been a warrior thing. We've always been weak to ranged attacks like guns and bows. That's our identity a bit, and we're lucky to have ignore pain demo SW and CC to deal with it.

Mocking banner or challenging roar/shout back would be nice though. Moment of weakness >.<
How to fix warrior, take IP off the GCD.


Let's say this is the only change that occurs. You get to use IP whenever you please, but it stays 40 rage and only absorbs less than 30k at decent gear levels (without bloodsport, which I wish I could farm to test my hypothesis).

Pull 3 of freehold has 1 shooter and multiple poison stacking rogue mobs. All of that is IP and nothing else, SW ftw, fine.

Pull 4 is a dash across the right side which includes a single poison rogue and a shooter. IP only.

Pull 5, either way you cut it, has a big enforcer, a couple dogs and yet another poison rogue. Mostly fine, but it's a lot of damage and being tossed around.

Boss random targets a front projectile based attack which does a decent bit of damage. Just worth noting, not that the boss is terribly challenging.

Next pull is a single enforcer.

Across the bridge, somehow non tethered 3 elites with a single must interrupt ability meanwhile a pack of rats and a bigger mob that throws traps that deal bleed damage rats jump around biting everyone.

Every pull has damage that can only be mitigated by IP and often there are limiting factors to rage generation from being tossed around or having to reposition, what have you.

All good for lower levels, but without a poison dispel or priority targets for shooters, you won't be able to maintain IP to prevent the majority of damage. It's my experience that if you mark a skull, it'll die last. Dps see the biggest mob and just sit on it, even if the tanks mitigation toolkit makes that mob a joke by comparison.

Dks have to worry about the hardest hitting mob, warriors have to worry about the unblockable damage. Dps just don't care.
The simplest fixes are a.) take IP off the gcd, b.) change block to affect ranged weapons, and c.) raise prot warrior health by 10%. I'd like to see more, but we're not getting a major overhaul anytime soon.
I disagree Sackless, you have Shockwave, Storm bolt, kiting potential with things like charge and leap, >>>Demo shout<<<, fear, Block still affects those melee swings from the poison applying mobs. Yeah Its not ideal to tank hits from ranged mobs, but I don't many tanks are particularly good at handling that. IP is sort of our version of a pally self heal or a DK absorb/self heal. Sure monks can cleanse their stagger easily, but theyve been OP since they came out and I dont think thats our flaw.

Taking IP off the GCD would help our overall defense as we'd be able to keep generating rage or putting out threat without worrying about ruining our rage gen and defense in the near future. The decision making should really be whether or not to use an inefficient IP to prepare for big spike dmg, or whether or not to use your rage on revenge VS defense. Or AoE vs rage generation.

Right now you can go in, try to pick up aggro, but you'll need to shield slam to get rage to keep yourself alive via shield block or IP, but youll also need to choose between spending the rage to apply deep wounds to targets with revenge so you don't lose threat. Then on top of that, using Avatar or Demoshout taking a GCD or 2 to be able to keep up with your bursting DPS friends is rough. Our GCD is crowded. Booming voice to get enough rage to IP then having to IP a GCD later when you should really be using TC to keep your debuff up via deafening crash is a rough choice, especially if you get a shield slam proc from that TC. It makes delaying IP further the most efficient thing to do, but also the most dangerous. It is fun though. Maybe just buff IP and call it a day.
I'm not saying that taking IP off gcd would do nothing, because it would, but Shockwave is pretty weak sauce when dealing with those rogues. Their poison is a 10s undispellable buff. "Poisoning Strike" is a shadowstep style ability that forces repositioning and is rarely able to be blocked. I've anticipated it a few times, but it doesn't exist on Little Wigs timers as of now.

I'm not drawing a comparison to other tanks and their ability to handle this, outside paladins who can cleanse poison (maybe other hybrids can too, but def pallies. Dks can ams it and Dhs have a similar style talent though I'm not sure of its viability in that row). A 5 stack in an 8 is as potent as a bleed from a KR berserker. To say other tanks stand beside us on that specific mechanic just isn't true.

As far as the pull goes, I usually charge, use avatar on my way to my target, twiddle my thumbs for 0.5s then tclap. Now threat is no concern at all and the length of trash pulls in +7 and up means I have avatar for almost every pack if it isn't a solo mob pull. I wish I had numbers for the amount of rage I'm blowing through, but I don't. My DC trait was replaced by a 45 ilvl upgrade and I've been doing my daily pvp in hopes of being able to choose the 355 shoulders to get it back. (my shoulders are 370 so not a huge hit). That said, after I have that snap aggro, I have SB because avatar 20 and intercept 15. Once that runs out, I'm LS for free soak and charges while dumping IP. By the time that's gone, I have 2 charges and full threat to decide whether I should HL out, move on to the next pull or finish out the pack (with 30+ necrotic stacks dropping combat may be the move. Strong healers I just hang out at 28-30, weak healers I'll move out at 15).

Like I've said though, I think we'd be better served by scaling IP better in almost all scenarios, at 230 I was at 17k, now 367 28k. It's not really keeping up with the content, on or off gcd.
09/27/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Sackless

Like I've said though, I think we'd be better served by scaling IP better in almost all scenarios, at 230 I was at 17k, now 367 28k. It's not really keeping up with the content, on or off gcd.

An off-GCD IP would make AM more efficient. That's worthwhile by itself. Its scaling is weak though.
Avatar, Demo, IP all off GCD so we can actually enjoy playing Prot and have a rotation.

Revenge is very unrewarding right now and cost to much rage reduce it to 15 rage cost.

Devastator becomes baseline and generates 2 rage

We then finally get back a rage dump in Heroic Strike.

Quality of Life change is for Tclap to apply Deep wounds again. Just make it happen please.

Would go back to having fixed CDs and haste only affects the GCD

  • Shield Slam = 6 sec
  • Shield Block = 12 sec
  • Tclap = 4 sec
  • We just gomma get strength... wewwwww. I think that upping our passive self heal and balancing our mastery would be adequate. Would still land prot warrior into a high skill cap, and throw us into the realm of viable through all content. It is just sorta sucky to see how there is a very real ceiling for prot warriors at this point.

    That being said, we're only a month and a half into this XPack... I mean granted prot warrior did not excel towards the end of Legion, but we were dishing out great numbers damage-wise and we were capable through high tier content. It is important to keep voicing concerns and making constructive suggestions. Even if it goes unheard by the blue, I'm sure it will make you feel better :)

    Although it would be great to see a variety of tanks in BfA's MDI... the idea of rolling a DK tank just makes me cringe...
    09/27/2018 10:47 PMPosted by Eibach
    We just gomma get strength... wewwwww. I think that upping our passive self heal and balancing our mastery would be adequate.


    Fixing mastery you would then want to actually fix haste. (both must be done) Would much rather stack mastery and go back to having fixed CDs and haste not reducing them. The issue is a clunky and bad rotation. Stuff needing to come off GCD and no room to press anything. Remove the importance of haste fix GCD, go to fixed CDs and then a more powerful mastery which we can stack.

    If they don't want to go back to fixed CD's ( no reason they shouldn't ) then they should have Prot base haste sit at 10%.
    The evolution of prot through the Alpha and Beta made it seem to me that they recognized the issues prot had in legion, they got about 1/2 way through a redesign, then ran out of time and readded IP as a bandaid. It kinda reminds me of Arms in WoD where you felt like the the devs never got around to a full rework so all the fixes were just strait damage buffs on our 3 abilities in order to make the spec viable in raid but never really addressed the core problems of the spec that made the rotation interesting. Based on the timeline it took the devs to actually rework arms to make it somewhat enjoyable we're looking at some fixes coming in 9.2 of next xpac.
    09/27/2018 06:43 PMPosted by Abombanation
    Would go back to having fixed CDs and haste only affects the GCD

    Shield Slam = 6 sec
    Shield Block = 12 sec
    Tclap = 4 sec


    Why? So we're encouraged to wait fractions of GCDs if we dare take a single point of Haste? You'd need 17% haste for Shield Slam and a whopping 25% Haste to make a Tclap actually fit your GCD if not scaled, and all without any actual advantage to the skill's output over time during continuous in-melee-range combat.

    Hmm, should I Devastate again and be late to my Shield Slam or do absolutely nothing until it's back off CD?

    This is the "solution" to an already "clunky rotation"?
    I think DS should be out of gcd that is the worst part for me. Ant I think shield block should have 100% uptime obviously our mastery has to be rework because will be completely broken with our actual mastery and 100% uptime and shield block
    bring back shield slam getting rid of buffs and make devastate actually devastate something. why i even have to hit a button to block with a giant shield is silly
    10/01/2018 01:15 PMPosted by Bloodymane
    bring back shield slam getting rid of buffs and make devastate actually devastate something. why i even have to hit a button to block with a giant shield is silly

    A shield is attached to your arm which is attached to your body. All 3 of which are in movement during combat. This is simulated by pressing a button called Shield Block.

    I agree with the Dispel part. Devastate causes Deep Wounds which does a healthy amount of damage. Its too bad my rotation is clogged up with skills that should be off the GCD.

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