Blood Elf joining horde ret con

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09/19/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Rodruun
Nope but elves forsaking millenia of human-elf cooperation over the actions of one guy and becoming Horde fanatics over the actions of a single human is ridiculous.


Man, could you imagine if Blizzard wrote that, instead of what they did write?
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Nope but elves forsaking millenia of human-elf cooperation over the actions of one guy and becoming Horde fanatics over the actions of a single human is ridiculous.

Specially with Orcs founding a city named after the guy who sent dragons and trolls against them, and Trolls who cry out "For Zul'jil" when you /charge.


U-hu. Such milenia of close colaboration that the literal last heir of the original humans involved had to forcibly remind THE SAME ELF MONARCH THAT MADE THE PACT about the aforementioned close ties in the first place, amrite?

You people want to know WHY the Belves rolling Horde is such a good narrative? Cause it is based upon a realistic and mature premise. Yup, nations kill between each others ALL the time, but when the material benefits of overlooking /forgetting/ forgiving those violent acts IS BIGGER at a point in time, then the nations involved WILL overlook / forget / forgive the hate and start once again as if nothing happened. Look at our modern nations IRL... they go from " I hate you to genocidal levels" to "muh buddy the trade strategical ally" in less than decades as if nothing matters.

Belves could have kept themselves stubbornly hating the Horde for burning some trees and eventually die like the fools in Quel'lithien died -considering the Alliance nations weren't invested in truly helping them after the Third War- or as they did, decide to risk themselves, forge new ties and get the resources needed to finally put themselves out of the hellhole they were in.

Real life nations with a minimum of survival instinct usually choose the second option.


1.- First of all "lorewise" there was no Silvermoon left at all, the Belves left for Outland or died in Northrend following Illidan and the High Elves were a few individuals scattered here and there.

2.- It makes zero sense to think Belves needed "protection", protection from who? The only ones in a position to threaten Silvermoon are the Forsaken and the Scourge and the Alliance was fighting the Scourge, its quite likely they would receive aid from the Alliance too if given the chance.

3.- Tyrande literally threw her life away to save the Blood Elves, she chose to stand on a bridge alone against unsurmountable hordes of undead in order to allow Kael'thas and the Blood elves survive. She only survived by chance, she was prepared to die for the Belves.

The Blood Elves becoming playable was never in Blizzard's orbit, thats why it required a massive, hastily put retcon that made absolutely no-sense whatsoever and which was made specifically to fix an issue with population balance.

And even if you accept the lore as it is, then it makes more sense to the Belves to join the Draenei in cooperation considering Velen and the Naaru curing them of their addiction.
09/19/2018 04:18 PMPosted by Ariël
U-hu. Cause only WC1and WC2 count regarding "the characterizationof the Horde", amrite?

You see, there is this thing called "ongoing narrative" that usually is one of the most important aspects of literary pieces. And unfortunately for you "hurr durr muh evil Hurde!!" types; WC3 with it's evidently non evil Horde IS the direct precedent of World of Warcraft. So, I'm sorry but your "200% evul Hurde" stopped being coherent even before the MMORPG launched, period.


In WC3 Grom willingly drinks the blood of Mannoroth in order to kill Cenarius.

Maybe if you actually played WC3 instead of hastily reading the lore you would realize that what kept the Horde in check was Thrall, and Thrall is gone.
09/19/2018 04:30 PMPosted by Rodruun
its quite likely they would receive aid from the Alliance too if given the chance.


Your personal feelings about how likely something is not withstanding. The Alliance was given the chance, they didn't.

3.- Tyrande literally threw her life away to save the Blood Elves, she chose to stand on a bridge alone against unsurmountable odds of undead in order to allow Kael'thas and the Blood elves survive.


And? Are we to believe that the Blood Elves shouldn't condemn the entire Alliance on the bad act of a single person, but should absolutely embrace the entire Alliance on the good act of a single person?

You can't have it both ways, either it takes more than a single exceptional person to sway a nation or it doesn't.

09/19/2018 04:30 PMPosted by Rodruun
The Blood Elves becoming playable was never in Blizzard's orbit, thats why it required a massive, hastily put retcon that made absolutely no-sense whatsoever and which was made specifically to fix an issue with population balance.


That's not what a retcon is. When Blood Elves were added it was new continuity, not retroactively changed continuity. Now, I get that the word "retcon" has just become shorthand for "bad" used by people who don't know a better way to say "bad" but still. It makes it really hard to have these conversations when you use words wrong.

As for whether it makes sense or not. You think that the entirety of the Blood Elves joining the Horde came down to a single individual. What you think makes sense, as any measuring stick for lore, means nothing until you know the lore.

09/19/2018 04:30 PMPosted by Rodruun
And even if you accept the lore as it is, then it makes more sense to the Belves to join the Draenei in cooperation considering Velen and the Naaru curing them of their addiction.


And again, we end up in a situation where the actions of a single individual should turn the hearts and minds of an entire people... when it's convenient for you.
Your personal feelings about how likely something is not withstanding. The Alliance was given the chance, they didn't.


And that is the definition of bad writing. The Alliance had a presence in the plaguelands to fight the Scourge yet they didnt even asked the Blood Elves for help?

And? Are we to believe that the Blood Elves shouldn't condemn the entire Alliance on the bad act of a single person, but should absolutely embrace the entire Alliance on the good act of a single person?

You can't have it both ways kid. Either it takes more than a single exceptional person to sway a nation or it doesn't.


You do realize that in both scenarios the Blood Elves would be Alliance?

If true, then Tyrande and Velen actions would be enough to sway the Blood Elves in favor of the Alliance.

If not true, then the Blood Elves would not readily forget what the Horde did to them.

That's not what a retcon is. When Blood Elves were added it was new continuity, not retroactively changed continuity.

Now, I get that the word "retcon" has just become shorthand for "bad" used by people who don't know a better way to say "bad" but still. It makes it really hard to have these conversations.


The Blood Elves were "de-genocided", that is a recton, there was no Silvermoon left, the Blood Elves supposedly had a 90% casualty rate, the few survivors became the Blood Elves who followed Illidan.

But then it was retconned into Silvermoon not being destroyed and Kael'thas and co being just a small party of Belves.

09/19/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Fondant
And again, we end up in a situation where the actions of a single individual should turn the hearts and minds of an entire people... when it's convenient for you.


In which we go back to the either way elves should be Alliance.
Here is the vanilla lore that established that Quel'thalas was completely destroyed.

By the time Arthas and his army of the dead turned southward, not one living elf remained in Quel'Thalas. The glorious homeland of the high elves, which had stood for more than nine thousand years, was no more

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sunwell_-_The_Fall_of_Quel%27Thalas

The remaining Elves were Illidan followers, it was retconned when Belves were given to the Horde.

As i said, i actually played WC2, WC3 and Vanilla and i know what the lore was about before the massive TBC retcon of Eredar and Belves.
09/19/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Rodruun
And that is the definition of bad writing.


So the definition of "bad writing" is things that make you wrong? I had long suspected.

09/19/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Rodruun
You do realize that in both scenarios the Blood Elves would be Alliance?


Not correct. The Blood Elves don't default to the Alliance, and didn't join the Horde because of Garithos' bad acts. So we remove all three of these individuals and we get the exact same story that we have right now. The Horde still helps the Blood Elves. The Alliance still doesn't help the Blood Elves. The Blood Elves still join the Horde. The Blood Elves still establish a growing connection to the Horde over 10 years. You still show up. You still whine about it being bad writing because you don't realize your opinion isn't the same thing as objective fact. I still show you you're wrong. You still refuse to listen.

Again, until you learn the lore, you're not going to make a good argument here.

09/19/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Rodruun
The Blood Elves were "de-genocided", that is a recton, there was no Silvermoon left, the Blood Elves supposedly had a 90% casualty rate, the few survivors became the Blood Elves who followed Illidan.


Okay, but what exactly about leaving the civilians back home doesn't make sense to you? Remember, in your haste and inexperience you promised a "massive retcon" that "made absolutely no sense." Kael'thas taking his most combat ready south into a war zone to combat the Scourge while the remaining Blood Elves pick up the pieces of their destroyed home makes perfect sense. And it 'retcons' at most a single sentence.

09/19/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Rodruun
But then it was retconned into Silvermoon not being destroyed and Kael'thas and co being just a small party of Belves.


Actually, Silvermoon was rebuilt. It was completely destroyed, and then it was rebuilt. That part wasn't a retcon.

09/19/2018 04:46 PMPosted by Rodruun
In which we go back to the either way elves should be Alliance.


Heh.
High Elves will only happen for the Horde. I know how bad you feel. I have similar feelings in regards to Frostmourne. But facts are facts. It's time to move on.
So the definition of "bad writing" is things that make you wrong? I had long suspected.


No, the definition is writing that makes no sense and was shoehorned in for gameplay reasons.

Metzen literally said "I forgot" when asked about the inconsistency of how Sargeras went rogue, because back then Sargeras was driven mad by the Eredar before they retconned the Draenei as Eredar.

Like "We will never be conquerors" Thalyssra going full warmonger because Tyrande was mean to her.

Not correct. The Blood Elves don't default to the Alliance, and didn't join the Horde because of Garithos' bad acts. So we remove all three of these individuals and we get the exact same story that we have right now. The Horde still helps the Blood Elves. The Alliance still doesn't help the Blood Elves. The Blood Elves still join the Horde. The Blood Elves still establish a growing connection to the Horde over 10 years. You still show up. You still whine about it being bad writing because you don't realize your opinion isn't the same thing as objective fact. I still show you you're wrong. You still refuse to listen.

Again, until you learn the lore, you're not going to make a good argument here.


LOL, im not whining, you are the ones that are malcontent with the current development of the lore.

Im perfectly fine with Belves joining the Horde and becoming evil after betraying those that helped them in the past, its perfectly in-character for them just like Kael'thas joined Illidan to serve Kil'Jaeden so does Lor'themar stands by Sylvanas side during her attrocities.

Okay, but what exactly about leaving the civilians back home doesn't make sense to you? Remember, in your haste and inexperience you promised a "massive retcon" that "made absolutely no sense." Kael'thas taking his most combat ready south into a war zone to combat the Scourge while the remaining Blood Elves pick up the pieces of their destroyed home makes perfect sense. And it 'retcons' at most a single sentence.


There was no "back home" until it was retconned, also you already established that "back home" required protection as a reason for Belves going Horde.

So why is Kael'thas following Garithos instead of using Belf survivors to protect their home?

Actually, Silvermoon was rebuilt. It was completely destroyed, and then it was rebuilt. That part wasn't a retcon.


You cant rebuild life, the entire population of Quel'thalas was wiped off, it was retconed.

09/19/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Fondant
Heh.


/shrug.

09/19/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Treng
High Elves will only happen for the Horde. I know how bad you feel. I have similar feelings in regards to Frostmourne. But facts are facts. It's time to move on.


High elves will never happen for population reasons, it is known.
This might be the worst thread I've seen in my life.

Iyasra, please stop talking about Elves.
dude just look at the basics.
Blood Elves are in the Alliance with Valeera Sanguinar.
High Elves are everywhere the Alliance is.
Lorthemar respects and likes Jaina according to that MoP raid.
Blood Elves almost joined the Alliance
Blood Elves are pretty neutral as far as a horde race. They don't want to conquer others like Orcs, Trolls, Forsaken etc.
Blood Elves joined the horde orginaly because they helped them clear the scourge but the scourge still has a heavy presence in the area,
and Blood Elves used mind control to convince the general population to join the HORDE.
09/19/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Rodruun
No, the definition is writing that makes no sense and was shoehorned in for gameplay reasons.


Okay, so we're up to 2 examples of retcons. 0 examples of things that make no sense. And so 0 examples of bad writing.

09/19/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Rodruun
LOL, im not whining, you are the ones that are malcontent with the current development of the lore.


I'm sorry, are you more comfortable with "voicing complaints repeatedly and in a nonproductive manner?"

Also I'm taking this as you conceding that you were wrong to claim the Blood Elves would default to the Alliance if it weren't for Garithos.

09/19/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Rodruun
There was no "back home" until it was retconned, also you already established that "back home" required protection as a reason for Belves going Horde.


Woah, wait, Eversong Woods completely VANISHED? That's incredible! Or you're just wrong.

09/19/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Rodruun
So why is Kael'thas following Garithos instead of using Belf survivors to protect their home?


Because in the long term defeating the Scourge is important?

09/19/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Rodruun
You cant rebuild life, the entire population of Quel'thalas was wiped off, it was retconed.


Yes, but you had said the city was retconned into being intact. But it wasn't. The city was destroyed and then rebuilt in new continuity. That was the part that wasn't a retcon.... I can sense I'm confusing you. Lets try again from the most basic of information.

There was the lore of Warcraft 3 which is that Silvermoon was destroyed, the High Elves present when Silvermoon was destroyed renamed themselves Blood Elves and they ALL traveled south on a mission of vengeance.

But then it was retconned so that Silvermoon was destroyed, the High Elves present when Silvermoon was destroyed renamed themselves Blood elves and then SOME travelled south on a mission of vengeance.

Anyway, I hope that helps you understand.
https://youtu.be/l60MnDJklnM
"I don't like where the lore is going! Must be a retcon!"
09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
Blood Elves are in the Alliance with Valeera Sanguinar.

A single Blood Elf is in the Alliance.

09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
High Elves are everywhere the Alliance is.

Only when under the banners of: Night Elves, Jaina, or the Kirin Tor.

09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
Lorthemar respects and likes Jaina according to that MoP raid.

And? It's completely believable to respect an enemy commander and still go to war with them. I highly doubt he "likes" her though.

09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
Blood Elves almost joined the Alliance

And then Garrosh framed the Sunreavers, Jaina went ape-!@#$, and the Purge of Dalaran happened.

09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
Blood Elves are pretty neutral as far as a horde race. They don't want to conquer others like Orcs, Trolls, Forsaken etc.

But they also refuse to allow people like Alleria and Vereesa to dictate how they should live and who they should be friends with. Many Blood Elf characters who have been shown in media and quests are quite happy with their friendships to the other members of the Horde.

09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
Blood Elves joined the horde orginaly because they helped them clear the scourge but the scourge still has a heavy presence in the area

And? The Scourge, unlike the Legion, has consistently been shown to be a pretty dangerous enemy and much more difficult to defeat.

09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
Blood Elves used mind control to convince the general population to join the HORDE.

Source that this canonically happens under Lor'themar's rule and is not just the product of the devs admitting they don't spend the resources updating content from 10 years ago?
Okay, so we're up to 2 examples of retcons. 0 examples of things that make no sense. And so 0 examples of bad writing.


It makes no sense because joining the Horde only put the Blood Elves in danger, because the Blood Elves would feel no need to join Garithos if they had enough people left, and because the Alliance given its history would certainly back up the Blood Elves.

I'm sorry, are you more comfortable with "voicing complaints repeatedly and in a nonproductive manner?"

Also I'm taking this as you conceding that you were wrong to claim the Blood Elves would default to the Alliance if it weren't for Garithos.


The Blood Elves were part of the Alliance already, they only left it because of Garithos.

Woah, wait, Eversong Woods completely VANISHED? That's incredible! Or you're just wrong.


Eversong Woods is part of Quel'thalas.

Because in the long term defeating the Scourge is important?


Garithos wasnt up for defeating the Scourge, he was up to retaking Lordaeron, Kael'thas joined because Quel'thalas was completely destroyed and Elves as a people utterly broken and scattered.

09/19/2018 05:34 PMPosted by Fondant
Yes, but you had said the city was retconned into being intact. But it wasn't. The city was destroyed and then rebuilt in new continuity. That was the part that wasn't a retcon.... I can sense I'm confusing you. Lets try again from the most basic of information.

There was the lore of Warcraft 3 which is that Silvermoon was destroyed, the High Elves present when Silvermoon was destroyed renamed themselves Blood Elves and they ALL traveled south on a mission of vengeance.

But then it was retconned so that Silvermoon was destroyed, the High Elves present when Silvermoon was destroyed renamed themselves Blood elves and then SOME travelled south on a mission of vengeance.

Anyway, I hope that helps you understand.


Wacraft 3 and Vanilla, and it wasnt just Silvermoon, it was Quel'thalas, the country, which was turned into an undead land devoid of life, the Belves that accompany Kael'thas are everything that its left, along with what i presume were Elves not present in Lordaeron when the Scourge attacked.

09/19/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Pales
"I don't like where the lore is going! Must be a retcon!"


Is this sarcasm or are you simply channeling your inner Horde? because thats exactly how 90% of the Horde posters talk about Sylvanas and the Forsaken.
09/19/2018 06:16 PMPosted by Rodruun
The Blood Elves were part of the Alliance already, they only left it because of Garithos


Except after the Second War Anasterian said: "Orcs are defeated? Okay! Cool! Now GTFO out'ta my forests and piss off."

09/19/2018 06:16 PMPosted by Rodruun
Garithos wasnt up for defeating the Scourge, he was up to retaking Lordaeron, Kael'thas joined because Quel'thalas was completely destroyed and Elves as a people utterly broken and scattered.


Apparently not scattered enough that he couldn't gather them up, declare them all Sin'dorei and skip off to Outland.
09/19/2018 06:16 PMPosted by Rodruun
It makes no sense because joining the Horde only put the Blood Elves in danger, because the Blood Elves would feel no need to join Garithos if they had enough people left, and because the Alliance given its history would certainly back up the Blood Elves.


Regarding the Blood Elves being in danger as part of the Horde. Azeroth is a dangerous world and they are safer as part of the Horde. Regarding the Blood Elves not feeling like they needed to join forces with other armies against a seemingly limitless army of the dead, you're wrong. Regarding what we are giving for the Alliances history, they have backed the Blood Elves up a grand number of 0 times and High Elves once, in exchange for something.

We are still at 2 retcons and 0 things that don't make sense. Your claim of bad writing has been found insufficient and is being rejected. Due to the large number of "bad writing" and "retcon" complaints we are receiving I am afraid you will be required to wait 10 days before submitting a further complaint regarding this topic.

09/19/2018 06:16 PMPosted by Rodruun
The Blood Elves were part of the Alliance already, they only left it because of Garithos.


Funny that this should be your response to me asking if you'd be more comfortable with "complain repeatedly to no effect."

Blood Elves joined forces with the Alliance for what felt like a long weekend. You imbue this with significance it doesn't have. If anything, I dare say that the Blood Elves time as part of the Alliance under Garithos may have done very little to build the good they would have needed to overlook the espionage, slander and murder the Alliance would perpetuate in their territory during the events of Burning Crusade.

09/19/2018 06:16 PMPosted by Rodruun
Eversong Woods is part of Quel'thalas.


Neat. But it still existed, even if it was destroyed. The space didn't fold out of existence entirely causing any who would travel north to skip straight from the Eastern Plaguelands into the ocean?

Wacraft 3 and Vanilla,


Well no, the retcon happened in Burning Crusade, after Vanilla.

But at least now you understand that Silvermoon was destroyed and then rebuilt.

09/19/2018 06:24 PMPosted by Degas
Apparently not scattered enough that he couldn't gather them up, declare them all Sin'dorei and skip off to Outland.


Well, it helps that the Alliance gathered all the ones in Dalaran up for him.
09/19/2018 05:26 PMPosted by Iyasra
dude just look at the basics.
Blood Elves are in the Alliance with Valeera Sanguinar.
High Elves are everywhere the Alliance is.
Lorthemar respects and likes Jaina according to that MoP raid.
Blood Elves almost joined the Alliance
Blood Elves are pretty neutral as far as a horde race. They don't want to conquer others like Orcs, Trolls, Forsaken etc.
Blood Elves joined the horde orginaly because they helped them clear the scourge but the scourge still has a heavy presence in the area,
and Blood Elves used mind control to convince the general population to join the HORDE.


One elf who is only loyal to the Wrynn family.
Honestly, that's Blizzard's mistake for doing this if they're never going to give High Elves.
Begrudgingly, and that's not mutual by the time of BfA.
Until the purge.
Neither do the Tauren, but no one's begging them to be Alliance. Anymore.
They also joined after being sabotaged and spied on by the Alliance.
Like two elves. That's not the general public.
So, they wanted to put pretty Elves in the Horde for fun? We've known that since 2005, when they previewed the Blood Elves in a Game Insider or some such article. They thought it would be a fun cultural clash between the beautiful Sin'dorei and the rough Horde races, alongside a good way of balancing the Faction populations.

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