Taunt Changes in 8.1?

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Prev 1 2 3 4 10 Next
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.

So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.

So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.

So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.

So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.

Pretty late reply considering the circumstances, but it's something I guess.
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.

So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.

So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


Threat changes just make the game worse. Good job.
09/24/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Daetur
I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?

If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.

So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.

So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


I swear to God Blizzard's design philosophy is "we noticed you liked the game when it played a certain way, so we've decided to go ahead and change it."
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


This better not mean that i can't kite by continuously taunting and heroic throwing anymore. My kiting options are already extremely limited as a prot warrior, being unable to kite as well as any other tank due to blocks making it unsafe to engage the kite combined with not having any ranged slows and relying on external slows to keep ahead of the mobs at all.
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.

So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.

So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


I don't get it. How does removing the bonus to generation solve the issue of needing to use taunt on CD? Wouldn't you need to use it more often without the bonus, especially in situations where one tank outgears the other tank or the dps outgear the tank? If I outgear my off-tank, am I expected to sit there and do nothing or simply autoattack instead of using abilities so I don't accidently pull threat from him and mess up the swap mechanic?
I know Lore tried, but I am just not understanding the practical effect of this change. Can someone provide a simple example?
_________________
I used to have a signature here. The Shattering... shattered it. Please don't step on the pieces.
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.


So how about, instead of removing it and further obfuscating your game mechanics for people who look at the new tooltips in 8.1 and have no idea taunting gives a threat bonus, you just add it to the ones that don't have it? Why do you WANT players to not know how the game works?

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind


Yes. This is a good thing. Tanking and literally never having to think about threat was not fun.

and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases.


What issues, exactly?

As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.


You mean what tanks are already having to do because of god-awful AOE threat gen, after both the threat changes in BFA AND the loss of AOE damage artifact traits and use-effects and legendaries from Legion? And how on earth does LOWERING the bonus threat fix any potential issues where tanks and off-tank DPS increases?

Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


If you think a change will have no effect on gameplay at all, why change anything?
But...why though.

09/24/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Daetur
I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?

If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


(Emphasis mine)

...then why are you nerfing tank threat? >_>;

If you expect tanks to have issues with threat, requiring weaving taunt into their rotations to maintain threat, then why are you nerfing it? What practical positive gameplay effect does this have?
09/24/2018 06:23 PMPosted by Shippujinlai
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


This better not mean that i can't kite by continuously taunting and heroic throwing anymore. My kiting options are already extremely limited as a prot warrior, being unable to kite as well as any other tank due to blocks making it unsafe to engage the kite combined with not having any ranged slows and relying on external slows to keep ahead of the mobs at all.


Whilst Kiting has been a fairly large staple to Tanking throughout M+, it hasn't ever felt "right". I wouldn't be surprised if it was on it's way to coming to an end.
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
09/24/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Daetur
I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?

If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


Then what is the point of reducing overall threat generation?
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
09/24/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Daetur
I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?

If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


So you're solving a problem that doesn't exist yet by preemptively removing the thing that would fix it (which both of my raid's tanks are already doing mind you), albeit not in the most elegant way, and not giving any indication you're preemptively implementing the better fix that you want to do later on. So, if the taunt nerf DOES have negative effects on gameplay, to hell with us, we get to suffer for a few weeks while you guys hotfix it because you "didn't foresee the negative impact this would have".
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.

Honestly, I'd like to see a buff to tanks for baseline-threat. The issues are almost always on the pull. I really, really don't want to deal with threat being ripped off me a few seconds after Taunt fades because someone decided to pop their cooldowns.

As always, willing to give it a test.
I've never understood why threat should be a part of the game that a tank should have to manage. It's not fun or interesting, it's only frustrating when it's not working. I have more fun with making sure I'm tanking properly with mitigation and positioning than having to download an addon that shows threat generation because that's all this change will do and it's a change Blizzard has done before. The answer when it was like this before? An addon. Why must you repeat your mistakes over and over? What was it actually hurting with how it is currently? You've done a good job in creating an environment where tanking is fun and you can differentiate a bad tank from a good tank. Why do this now and just create a problem that an addon solves?
Orrrrrrr. bring back Vengeance? <3 <3 <3
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

Thanks for clarifying.

09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

The only concern this raises for me is the fact that while most tanks are pretty consistent across the board with their damage, Guardian is particularly farther behind than the others. With this reduction, is there any concern or expectation that the developers will address the lower than average singlet target damage (thus threat) that Guardian druids generate?
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


So you vastly reduced threat generation in BfA and are now worried that DPS threat is going to outscale tank threat soon-ish.

Yep, that sounds about par for the course this expansion. Short-sighted, half-assed design.
09/24/2018 06:24 PMPosted by Aliok
I know Lore tried, but I am just not understanding the practical effect of this change. Can someone provide a simple example?

[/quote]

Based on what I can tell from what Lore stated, they're looking at making it so tank swaps are valid again.

It reads like threat management on live right now doesn't require much thought - the threat bonus given after Taunt is extremely high as a layover from a mechanic that just isn't there anymore.

They're going to TEST lowering that threat bonus after taunt on the TEST REALM to see if that super high threat is still needed. It also sounds like they want the freedom to add more mechanics that revolve around a tank actually needing to pass threat off quickly.

**The above is just rough estimation and interpretation of the Blue's post, I could be very wrong in this reading.**
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR.


Any update on when that PTR is going to be actually available? Radio silence since the livestream announcing it last week, even after an entirely broken build went out.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum