Taunt Changes in 8.1?

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I have been a tank in every other MMORPG with the exception of WoW.

This is exhibit A as to how WoW devs treat the tank community aka throws dirt in their face and asks them to stick around. :(
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
09/24/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Daetur
I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?

If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


Yet we are at that point for Druids. I constantly have to use Taunt on my rotation whenever the other tank is going hard on the boss at the same time. Right now, it is impossible to keep up in threat against the other tanks.

Against dps it only matters if they burst right off the bat (which it happens extremely often) so if the issues of burst being hard to handle for a guardian druid is already a thing, how do you not forsee this to not be an even bigger issue as DPS keep out pacing us with their scaling?
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
09/24/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Daetur
I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?

If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


So you're concerned with a situation that you feel may or may not arise to begin with, which you say, if it arises, you'd fix by buffing threat. And your response to this theoretical scenario is to nerf threat?

I'm sorry but I'm even more confused than before you wrote your follow-up post.
Is it me, or did Lore's answer just read, "were not changing it so don't worry because were changing it"?
09/24/2018 08:04 PMPosted by Azrayal
Is it me, or did Lore's answer just read, "were not changing it so don't worry because were changing it"?


Yeah pretty much.
I am not a fan of any changes making it harder to tank. It's difficult as it is finding a tank, much less a decent one, and changes like this will further drive players away from tanking. It seems to me that there are a number of large issues that a number of tank specs are facing right now; making tanking harder for them won't solve these issues.

With that said, if Blizzard is continuing to make threat an issue when tanking, how's about returning some of the tools players used to have to help? Blessing of Salvation was a paladin staple and it's been long gone for a while now. It could certainly play a big role if the devs continue down the road they're on.
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


But we're not really generating enough threat. MAYBE as iLevels increase (like M+ iLevel) it gets a bit easier, but at that point, why bother? Right now, as it is I've quit tanking because threat is such a headache to try and manage. With the scaling issues and previous threat nerfs...you're making it even harder now to gain and keep threat and for what reason exactly? I was finally starting to enjoy tanking again and now these changes to threat and trying to keep agro have made it so not fun, so I gave up and went back to healing...which is another headache altogether - it's like you (not "you" personally) hate healers in this expansion.

From nerfs to the absolute need never being able to stay in one spot long enough to get a healing spell off without taking one in the face...anyway, that's another topic...
09/24/2018 06:21 PMPosted by Lore
09/24/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Daetur
I'm a little confused- you expect threat issues bad enough with DPS scaling over time that you worry tanks might feel like they need to weave Taunt into their rotations because it gives them extra threat, so you're reducing the bonus, taking away an option to deal with that apparent inevitability? Are you adding something else? What gameplay do you see arising instead?

If we get to that point (it's not clear if it'd ever actually happen), we wouldn't want "use Taunt on cooldown" to be the way to deal with it anyway. We'd rather just make sure you're generating enough threat.


SURELY a smart man such as yourself realizes the backwards logic you've presented here right? Why are you guys doubling down on actively pissing off the community?
09/22/2018 02:18 AMPosted by Bearpunch
This is such an incredibly and monumentally stupid decision I can only assume that we should take this at face value. This would be the type of idiotic "change for the sake of change" thing that Blizzard has been frothing over this entire expansion.


Not even close.

Nothing beats the GCD changes, probably the biggest step backwards in mankind.
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.

So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.

So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


So your saying that taunting will still give you a threat boost on follow up abilties for the next few seconds? If that's the case why are you removing it from the tooltip? One of the big issues with Azerite Traits for example is the lack of info in the tooltips and you guys removing that using taunt increases your threat generation for the next X amount of seconds is the same thing.

How would a NEW player know that is the case? They shouldn't need to browse a website to find that out and you guys are actually actively going out of your way to force someone to go to websites to find this info out because you refuse to put relevant information in the game and are actively removing useful information.
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Sorry for the delay in responding to this; I wanted to make sure I had all my info 100% correct before I said anything, rather than risk giving you incorrect or incomplete info.

So first off: the threat bonus from using taunts is not being removed. That's a tooltip change that was made entirely for consistency; every taunt increases threat generation while it's active, but it was only mentioned in the tooltip for a few of them for some reason. So that's just basic housekeeping.

However, separate from the tooltip change, we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR. Currently, it's pretty massive, which is a holdover from when it was first added in Mists of Pandaria. Remember, back then active tanks were dealing huge amounts of damage (and thus, threat) due to the Vengeance mechanic, and so the offtank needed a huge threat boost to be able to keep aggro through tank swaps. That mechanic hasn't existed for a few expansions now.

Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases. As one example, there's a risk that we end up in a situation where certain tanks need to use their taunt on cooldown as part of their single target rotation. That would be bad for several fairly obvious reasons.

So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


Why?

Like WHY is there such a need to nerf threat?

WTF is wrong with you people?

You're spending development time worrying about a reduction to main tank threat when you are hemorrhaging players, and your game isn't fun. You guys look at a house fire and say, Hmm... their 80-gallon hot water heater really is too big for a family of 4.
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
Nowadays, in BFA, threat is once again something tanks need to keep in mind, and that massive bonus opens us up to all sorts of wacky issues as DPS (both from tanks and from damage dealers) increases.


First of all - thanks so much for responding!

Second - can you explain the logic behind "dps and tanks are dpsing so much that it causes wacky threat issues; so we (Blizzard) is going to nerf a threat generating ability."?

That doesn't make sense unless the plan is to add a compensating component to generate enough threat to overcome the increase to dps. What are the compensating components being implemented with the threat generation nerf?
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


Then why change anything at all? If it's not broke then don't fix. Several expansions later and just now it is suddenly a problem?
09/24/2018 08:42 PMPosted by Sammonoske
09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
So, we're going to try it with a lower bonus on the PTR and see what happens. Our expectation is that there is no tangible effect on your gameplay; you still use taunts exactly how you do now, and they have the same result.


Then why change anything at all? If it's not broke then don't fix. Several expansions later and just now it is suddenly a problem?


The developer's tendency to endlessly screw with things is a Blizzard trademark. The only thing that comes remotely close in terms of backward-thinking is the idea that removing things from the game makes it more fun.
I haven’t really raided for some time but, honest question here, are tricks and misdirect no longer a thing? It used to be a routine part of the game to help tanks and dps balance threat.

Not suggesting it’s a cure for the problem. I just ask it because I hadn’t seen it mentioned in this thread.
09/24/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Zelath
So your saying that taunting will still give you a threat boost on follow up abilties for the next few seconds? If that's the case why are you removing it from the tooltip? One of the big issues with Azerite Traits for example is the lack of info in the tooltips and you guys removing that using taunt increases your threat generation for the next X amount of seconds is the same thing.

I don't disagree.

The only thing I can surmise about the change is that it opens the door for them to alter how taunt works in a hotfix without the need to push a client update.

But I think the more concerning problem is the following passage

09/24/2018 06:09 PMPosted by Lore
we are going to experiment a little with reducing how big the threat bonus is on the 8.1 PTR.

In a perfect world where players gear relatively equally in a raid group and tanks all generate relatively equal threat, this would be a non-issue most likely. But that isn't the world we operate in and tank threat is inconsistent.

Blizzard also needs to account for the fact that a raid's tanks are never going to gear equally throughout a tier. Tanks have access to a variety of gearing methods, including M+ and as one gets better gear, naturally the threat model will become more problematic for the lesser geared and potentially lower-threat generating class.

No one wants to auto-attack to avoid pulling threat off their lesser geared tank.
No one wants to withhold using their burst cds while off-tanking.
No one wants to be benched or forced to re-roll because you choose tank X.

Lets take an example, Guardian druid mainly because its my main. For the moment lets assume we were the highest threat generating class (which we aren't, we're actually the lowest by a fair margin).

As a part of our off-tank routine, we're suppose to dump excess rage into Maul, which is our heaviest hitting ability. If we generate more threat than the active tank, there is the potential that our off-tank rotation pulls threat. If you factor in the chance that Guardian out-gears the co-tank due to luck in raid drops and M+ drops, the use of Maul while off-tanking would become an even bigger concern.

Now replace Guardian with whatever the highest-threat tank is and uses whatever their hardest hitting ability is, and its all the same problem.

The only possible way this type of change can go live is if Blizzard makes sure that all bases are covered with respect to tank damage both from a single-target perspective and multi-target perspective.

While tanking can be boring, fighting for threat was never a fun concept and even Blizzard stood in that camp years ago. Has that vision changed because if so, perhaps its time my invest does too.
You guys still haven't figured it out have you.

This is literally to prevent kiting.

Taunt->Kite with minimal threat. Taunt again -> Kite with minimal threat.

Mythic+, tanks kite. They want tanks to face tank more and kite less. Hence all these changes to remove past "Vengeance made us introduce this mongo threat boost" things from the game, so that tanks are brought back to sensible levels of threat where in a normal scenario, you won't have issues holding threat, but in a scenario where you're only minimally hitting mobs, you will murder your melee DPS.

09/24/2018 08:58 PMPosted by Naros
multi-target perspective.


Is not impacted by this change, taunt is single target.
09/24/2018 08:54 PMPosted by Gormog
I haven’t really raided for some time but, honest question here, are tricks and misdirect no longer a thing? It used to be a routine part of the game to help tanks and dps balance threat.

Those things are still a thing and are useful mostly on the pull in a raid encounter. From then on, the tank swap rotation may be dictated by a number of factors ranging from a number of stacks taunt swap, to emergency taunt to eat an attack while the healers heal the other tank, etc.

In short, those abilities shouldn't be what tanks need every taunt swap to prevent one tank from out threating the other. Nor should we find ourselves in a world where the off-tank simply auto-attacks to avoid pulling threat either.
09/24/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Beraaht
You guys still haven't figured it out have you.

We understand very clearly that the aim is to deal with tanks in M+ kiting mobs. But this change also indirectly impacts raid taunt swaps and the initial pull of a raid encounter.

09/24/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Beraaht
where in a normal scenario, you won't have issues holding threat

Lets describe a normal scenario shall we.

Blood Death Knight and Guardian druid, both equally geared at approximately 355 item level. Hunter misdirects to Guardian druid, Guardian druid pre-pots an agility potion, taunts raid boss, applies mangle, thrash, moonfire, mangle again, applies active mitigation, then looses threat to the death knight co-tank. In those few seconds, the DK was able to burst over 10k DPS where-as the druid was only able to burst 5k DPS.

As I said, I clearly get this is aimed at M+ kiting. But there are already serious issues in a coordinated raid environment as it and this change simply exacerbates an already festering problem.

09/24/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Beraaht
Is not impacted by this change, taunt is single target.

That doesn't change the fact that threat differs significantly across tank classes at the moment and conveying that changing taunt only adds more fuel to an already existing problem rather than fix it. If they want to make this change, fine. But they need to review and fix all aspects of tank threat across the board.

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