PVP Tuning: DKs

Death Knight
A recent Blizzard blue post indicated that they're planning to address DKs in the next round of tuning. What are your thoughts on the current state of DK PVP (any or all specs), and what do you think needs to be done in order to get them balanced?

Higher burst or sustained damage?
Better mobility/stickability?
More potent defensives?
A simple reshuffling of talents or new talents/abilities altogether?

At the very least, I feel that our defensives (particularly Icebound Fortitude) are lacking. It would be nice to at least have Mirrorball back. Separately, the fact that we need to choose between Death Pact and Wraith Walk is pretty terrible, as without Wraith Walk our mobility is essentially non-existent, and without Death Pact we don't have a reliable/on-demand self-heal.
Better mobility wont happen. DKs class fantasy is to be slow, so youre stuck with it, yet a warrior with more mobility will likely always absolutely truck you in a toe to toe fight because reasons.

Unholy already has more buttons than other specs, so giving them another just clearly isnt on the table. Best hope you can have is a lazy flat damage taken decrease, probably as much as 10% due to how dire and helpless we are if something wants to hit us.

Unholy sustained damage is..mediocre, but passable I geuss. Their pad damage is actually decent, but they desperately need more single target pressure. Just !@#$ necrotic strike and make the base bursting wounds do more in PVP, Unholy already has so many talents it has to choose from its silly, and this way its more intuitive as DKs can just use Festermight, the best PVE trait, and make things simpler and less confusing.

Frost DK is just a 2 minute wheelchair spec like ret paladin except you can lower the duration of their "wings" by just ccing/kiting. Obliteration build probably needs to be buffed to prevent afking behind the pilalr waiting for breath gameplay and making them actually scary.

Tldr buff survivability
More consistent damage, alot more
frost optimal talents need to be readjusted
ive been playing blood its the only fun spec for me atm. i do good in bgs. i even 2v2 3v3 . 2v2 is fun i wish Blood DK was viable in arena. they're not and wont be but i still have fun. UH i used to play. it just seems horrible. way to much to do with lil rewards. frost i was gonna play but it seems like its frosty the snowman in summer useless. but this is what i think.
I would like to see a buff in % armor. This would make it possible for us to be in front of the melee without making a kite and death strike would have a better healing effect.

Also, I would like death strike to cost less runic power. Maybe 38p.

To improve the single target, I would like to buff in festering wound. The mechanics of the Unholy dk is based on generating festering wound. The damage he does is very low. A buff could improve the single target and maybe make the Bursting Sores talent competitive.
Honestly I think something like giving us corpse shield back would solve most of the problem. Damage is honestly not that bad. It's not as bursty as other specs, but it never has been. We do some great pressure in 3s, just need a more bursty partner to close out kills.

The issues are definitely on the survivability end. We do pretty well vs casters due to ams and (optionally) amz along with our multitude of interrupts. We just struggle with melee.

If I had full developer power, the changes I'd like to see are:
1. Corpse shield either baseline for UH or in place of death pact.
2. Burn death pact. Douse the ashes in gasoline and burn it again.
3. Slight buff to deathstrike healing, even if it comes in place of damage. Right now death coil doesn't do much more damage than death strike, so it rarely makes sense to NOT death strike in a PvP situation.
4. Buff death coil, festering strike, scourge strike damage. Nerf army and ghoul damage. Overall damage done should remain very similar, just more emphasis on active abilities.
5. Change festermight to proc off necrotic strike. It's silly that it doesn't.
6. Some sort of change to IBF. 3 min for a 30% wall and stun break is not in line with similar abilities from other classes. Ferals, for example, get a 50% wall with TWO CHARGES on a 2 min cd.
A survivability buff would be nice, however I think our damage should be adjusted dks aren't even a threat to me and other healers in 3s or 2v2. I can always get away and their pressure is laughable.
Also FIX our god awful PvP talents most are pretty much dead talents. Most death knights on the ladder with representation are taking 2 aura buffs just for extra damage, that's completely absurd to me. Also unholy mutation the one decent talent we got. The rest are pretty much garbage except for dark sim. Of course I'm speaking of unholy though not frost but frost shouldn't be locked to BOS ill say that much. Anyone past 1600 knows to CC you in it. I'd also love to see dot dmg decrease and overall single target upped a bit for frost. Give them better survivability as well.

(side note) Are presences ever gonna come back? That would straight up fix a lot of problems and I miss them a lot. Kinda bull!@#$ warriors keep stance druids keep forms and dk just lose their form of mitigation and situational usefulness.
09/24/2018 11:24 AMPosted by Makeitsnappy
A recent Blizzard blue post indicated that they're planning to address DKs in the next round of tuning. What are your thoughts on the current state of DK PVP (any or all specs), and what do you think needs to be done in order to get them balanced?

Higher burst or sustained damage?
Better mobility/stickability?
More potent defensives?
A simple reshuffling of talents or new talents/abilities altogether?

At the very least, I feel that our defensives (particularly Icebound Fortitude) are lacking. It would be nice to at least have Mirrorball back. Separately, the fact that we need to choose between Death Pact and Wraith Walk is pretty terrible, as without Wraith Walk our mobility is essentially non-existent, and without Death Pact we don't have a reliable/on-demand self-heal.
im fine with 0 mobility. the class fantasy is to be high damage output (ranged/melee) and be tanky/slow. Talents suck the tier 90 talents are a joke and should be reworked as well as Death pact it should take your pets HP instead of your own(like it used to)
For Unholy (what im about to write could also transfer to Frost in its own way, but i dont play so i cant give input).

- Buff Death Strike healing but nerf damage.
- Lichborne (cries tears of nostaliga)
- Death Pact but no debuff and increase healing done
- Increase Apocalypse burst damage
- Either increase damage from bursting Festering Wounds OR give Festering Wounds a DoT that ticks until burst
- Increase our Armour % or decrease overall damage taken by 10%

This sounds pretty OP i know but its on the favour of less mobility but more damage + survivability.

This would let us sustain a fight and even the odds against other melee like Warrior/Ret/Rogue + ACTUALLY finish a fight IF we get to a caster.
The buffs (lol) are live.

Time to reroll boys
As others have stated a cd reduction on gnaw, a buff to DS healing, Stam/Armour would help a lot. I think death pact would be ok if they either took away the healing debuff or lowered the CD.

I think our magic damage mitigation is ok with ams/amz. Plus there is a talent and Azerite trait that buffs ams.

My main issue with Unholy atm is how our damage is distributed. If it was reallocated from AOTD,AA and Pet auto attack to say wounds/VP it would feel alot better. That would allow us to keep our rot pressure/ consistent dmg plus have a little burst with Apoc.

Ebon fever needs a rework almost every uh picks that. It causes a lot of balancing issues with our dot damage.They can barely tweak Vp without making it OP because of it. Also it basically makes Unholy blight a dead talent...
09/24/2018 07:43 PMPosted by Ancientz
The buffs (lol) are live.

Time to reroll boys

What's the point is rerolling. The devs have made it clear they buff and nerf randomly.
09/24/2018 03:00 PMPosted by Bloodweaver

1. Corpse shield either baseline for UH or in place of death pact.


I wish people would stop saying "just give us corpse shield back." It was a horrible talent that killed off your pet and left it on cooldown, for an OK shield. The only survivability talent worse than that is Death Pact. So many better options in DK past than this crap.
Frost will probably get a 20% buff to frost fever and autoattacks. 10% nerf to obit, and frost strike. Death pact will get removed for something worse. Just because the devs are random.
Here is my two cents from an unholy viewpoint:

1) Despite CS, were a melee class, why does kiting feel like the only thing were slightly decent at right now? If were going to kite why not make FS ranged as well and just call us casters?

2)As most of us have been saying, our defensives (excluding AMS/AMZ) are laughable when compared to the amount of bubbles, absorbs, shields, and general on demand healing of other classes(looking at you ret pallys)

3) Our utility also feels like a joke, the joke being we have none. Now this would be fine if we did actually have something we were good at like spread pressure or survivability. Right now it feels like our burst damage is ok, our kiting(again with this) is ok and our consistent damage is again just ok. Sure necrotic is great and vader choke is fun, but it hardly feels like enough.

Just to compare a Ret pally (yea i just got done losing a lot of 2s to ret) has their big immune bubble, an anti melee damage bubble to throw on themselves or a teammate and an absorb shield bubble. Meanwhile I can only block some of it's damage with AMS, 30% of it's melee and possibly a stun if I anticipate the player's reaction right, and after that I'm stuck trying to kite around a pillar hoping it doesn't catch me. I haven't even listed their dps cooldowns and ability to heal themselves and others with an instant heal and FoL. (I'm just a little triggered)

To be honest, I don't really know what sort of changes we need or don't need for this spec. Sometimes it feels like we need a rework from the ground up, other times I feel like a slight tweak is in order.

One change in particular I would like to see is changing festering wounds to stack on us like combo points or something similar. It feels rough having to target switch both in pve and pvp.

Another I feel which might be nicer for pvp as opposed to pve is perhaps an option for outbreak to not spread. Maybe buff ebon fever up to 25% get rid of the halved duration and remove the spreading effect it has in the first 6 secs. This idea comes from my main 2s partner being an assassination rogue though, and having my dot involuntarily break a cc chain just by virtue of the opposing team knowing when I place it on them, it can spread, and if they can get back to their partner after we draw them out they can stop our cc. (Then again I'm struggling to stay in the 1400 range so if I'm just bad and this idea is bad I can accept that.)

Lastly, I suppose this is more pve related than pvp but our pet and its damage really needs to be looked into. I get they want white damage to be a thing but I strongly dislike my pet doing a 1/3 of my damage. I'm a master of death and decay not a beast master hunter.
A recent Blizzard blue post indicated that they're planning to address DKs in the next round of tuning. What are your thoughts on the current state of DK PVP (any or all specs), and what do you think needs to be done in order to get them balanced?

Higher burst or sustained damage?
Better mobility/stickability?
More potent defensives?
A simple reshuffling of talents or new talents/abilities altogether?
At the very least, I feel that our defensives (particularly Icebound Fortitude) are lacking. It would be nice to at least have Mirrorball back. Separately, the fact that we need to choose between Death Pact and Wraith Walk is pretty terrible, as without Wraith Walk our mobility is essentially non-existent, and without Death Pact we don't have a reliable/on-demand self-heal.


Death Pact is terrible because it's affected by dampening, so late game it's effectively useless. Given the fact that we are undead, we should get a talent tier that matches this. Rogues have cheat death, and death knights get a lackluster heal that gives us a necro stack? Doesn't make sense.

Every melee class has some sort of parry, we don't.

We offer very little utility compared to other melee classes. Other than the pet stun (which frost doesn't even have) we are forced to choose asphyxiate on the talent tier. Frost can choose blinding sleet, but it doesn't make a ton of sense given that both classes are designed to spread dots. Grip is a much better peel and we do not have the mobility to blind a healer we're not training.

Wraith walk needs to be baseline. I understand not giving us as much mobility as other classes, whatever, but wraith walk is a necessity.

UH DK doesn't have any real strengths other than necrotic strike (which again, is a talent tier choice that should be baseline) that separate us from choosing a different melee class. Grip COULD be, but other classes have so much mobility that it's difficult to see it shine without other stickiness/danger.

IMO we need some kind of cheat death that works with DK lore, a parry/evasion, one baseline cc, wraith walk baseline, necro baseline. Death pact should be quietly removed from the game and never spoken of again. CD to make the next death strike free and heal for 100% of damage taken or something would be way better.

I'd love to see a talent that lets me trade my pet for more damage or utility, but I don't think it's a necessity.

I'd also love a purge, and I would GLADLY trade my wish for more mobility for that. If damage went up, I'd also trade some survivability for one. Purge seems like it could easily work with DK flavor, too.

Right now it feels like many of the talent tiers are not actual choices, and wasn't the point of these tiered talents to get rid of that?
I agree core abilities or mechanics should not be talent choices. Looking at you necro and asphyx


Chains of ice feels very awkward on Unholy, while grip of the dead feels like it should be baseline and replace chains on UH specialization.

IMO we need some kind of cheat death that works with DK lore, a parry/evasion, one baseline cc, death and decay slow instead of chains (or a slow on a festering explosion, forcing us to choose between damage, slow, or absorb during combat?)
No... Chains of Ice doesn't feel very awkward on Unholy. I totally love that ability and shouled remain in Unholy forever and a day. Those like me who have played DK since season 5 which is the inception of DK can tell you that WE DON'T HAVE ANY AWKWARD ISSUE WITH CHAINS OF ICE. You ARE THE ONLY ONE as an amateur who started playing DK later have this issue.

In fact I can tell you that Chains of Ice was the main reason I why I fell in love with DK simply because it enabled a unique playstyle as melee hybrid to play Offensively in Defensive Positioning so removing Chains of Ice IS STUPID. next time before asking for changes don't talk if you haven't played DK since it's inception because you don't have any Knowledge whatsoever about his ins and outs, so please refrain from doing it.

TL:DR You're the ONLY ONE feeling awkward about chains ice. get gud.
chains of ice is akward????

wut?

maybe if you click it from your spell book, you sperg
Man its starting to get depressing reading all these suggestion posts which fall on deaf ears, can they not see we're grasping for straws here and need tweaks >:I
09/26/2018 03:34 PMPosted by Licher
Man its starting to get depressing reading all these suggestion posts which fall on deaf ears, can they not see we're grasping for straws here and need tweaks >:I


DK threads are ignored. Gotta get them Shaman changes tho.

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