Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Prev 1 11 12 13 118 Next
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.

Are you actually serious right now? Do you even play this game? Good lord this post is insulting.

Explain to me how I'm supposed to "build out" multiple sets of high level azerite armor in a system where azerite armor is almost entirely untargetable, unfarmable, and obtained almost exclusively from once-a-week RNG boxes sharing loot tables with hundreds of items. This makes me want to facepalm so hard I'd break my nose.

Next you claim that I am supposed to "lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles". Again, are you actually serious? In a game based on min-maxing you're suggesting that players who are serious enough to want to play multiple specs should purposely make their MAIN spec suboptimal to enable them to play an offspec sometimes? Really? Like, no... really?!

Do you understand that the current system is a regression back to VANILLA WoW respec costs? A system that was modified every single expansion to make it less punitive and less restrictive to ACTUALLY PLAY YOUR FREAKING CLASS.

Azerite armor literally has NO ACTUAL CHOICE. Do you understand this? The final trashcan iteration of azerite armor that shipped with the game has zero player choice. You've given us 4 abilities but they are each for a different spec except for one generic (and usually weak) zone trait. That is not a choice. The only "choice" you're making is what spec to be restricted to. Sounds a lot like the artifact weapon conundrum that the devs claimed they wanted to solve and took steps to improve over the course of legion.

Literally the only reason you would ever reforge a piece of azerite armor is to play another spec. Azerite armor does not introduce player choice, it exclusively introduces player spec locking.

Honestly Lore I am so unbelievably disappointed by this post and how it demonstrates Blizzards complete and utter disconnect from what is actually going in in your game. Please re-think this.
I think people would have less of an issue with Azerite gear if it were easier to get...

For example we have people in my guild that have done their +'s every week, been in for every normal and heroic kill (and even pugged when we chose not to go back into normal) who are still wearing 340 azerite in all 3 spots. This isn't a matter of traits being bad, this is a matter of the only thing that's dropped for them has been out of M0.

One person in particular has gotten multiple belts out of their chest all at the same item level.

Assuming everything was balanced or will get to balanced Azerite still sucks because there's only a grand total of 3 bosses in the raid and your M+ chest that you can get higher item level Azerite from.

If you're someone who has a limited amount of time, you probably will not be clearing Normal, heroic and Mythic Uldir every week so in reality you have 3-5 chances to get anything of value. If you don't raid, you're in an even worse spot.

Give M+ a chance to drop Azerite or guarantee it because there is no alternative. No one is going to care if you balance everything if you get bad luck week after week and are stuck with 4 belts and no Azerite.

I know there's bad luck protection on the cache, but that isn't enough. This probably won't get read so whatever. I'm yelling into the ether.
09/26/2018 07:34 PMPosted by Gurbo
The correct fix:

Delete Azerite entirely
Add a 120 talent row with new abilities
Add tier sets
Add JP/Valor/Conquest vendors

DONE

But Blizzard is so arrogant and prideful that we are stuck with this botched system that nobody likes for two more years.


What do class Tier sets have to do with Azerite?

The two are totally unrelated.

Again, if there were still class Tier sets, then the chest, hat and shoulders for those sets would just be Azerite pieces, rather than the chest, hat and shoulders for the armor-type Tier sets being Azerite pieces.
Does anyone at Blizz actually play the game anymore? I mean REALLY play the game like a 2nd life like most of us do. Because I can not see how any of you guys can be playing BfA and thinking "man this is super fun". Anyone who plays this game more than 10 hours or so a week can tell you exactly how bad this expansion feels and what needs to change. Please get some of the team members in the game so they can understand what all of your paying customers are grumbling about.

Thanks!
Lore,

That is so incredibly sad to hear. Just....wow. I am so disappointed that the developers are doubling down on the Azerite system. None of this is directed towards you as you are the community manager. I really hope our feedback gets passed on to the developers.

The Azerite system has to go. It just has to. The community overwhelmingly wants it. Whatever developer has his or her heels dug in, should really show humility and admit it was a mistake. The easiest path forward is to put the traits all on the Heart and remove them from gear. The traits can be earned through drops such as relics. It is not fun, interesting, or rewarding to farm the same trait on a new piece of gear all over again. And at that, it may not even be the trait you need for "building out your set" and you won't even be able to use it for your offspec.

I think the community could handle having the traits be on gear...if the traits were interesting or created a massive change in gameplay. A trait that gave us an extra talent on a row or gave us brand new abilities such as the gold traits on artifacts would be examples. A trait that gives an additional 500 armor over 10 seconds when Demon Spikes is activated is not something that is impactful. It is so incredibly lackluster.

With all the pruning of abilities, GCD changes, Azerite system, putting Fortified and Tyrannical as base Mythic + affixes, constant kiting as a tank (which should not be the case as a tank), lack of things to work towards (no tier class sets, no artifact appearances, no challenge mode armor or weapon appearances, no challenge towers), and no incentive to do Warfronts or Island Expeditions (which are boring)....I find myself at wits end to stay subscribed. I am just so utterly disappointed by this expansion so far.

I hope the Azerite system is scrapped and something better is introduced in 8.1. I want to find a reason to play this game.
09/26/2018 07:34 PMPosted by Zhiryu
he players that you're going to see with bags full of gear are the players that feel like they have to have the best traits in every scenario.


Maybe that attitude IS THE PROBLEM.

The idea that you have to have the absolute most optimal setup for any given situation at any given moment makes balance, class and item design essentially impossible.
You want us to create multiple sets of azerite gear instead of reforging, but getting the gear you need is 100% RNG, and the best options are on a weekly cooldown. Add on that you also need to grind artifact power to GET said traits to even be available.

You want multiple gear items, but also lock it behind weekly cooldowns, rng, and repetitive grinds. What the !@#$ do you want us to do???
Azerite armor should've landed on the chopping block. If FUN is the only metric blizzard truly cares about then why are so many of these systems so UNFUN?
09/26/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Vhye
You aren't playing the same game we are then. The fact is, if a trait has any advantage at all - unless every trait is identical (not just close) in impact - many people will target it. Period. There's no way to fix that - it's how people play this game.


You do understand that makes itemization pointless, right?

No matter what system Blizzard designs, the most ideal, optimal combination for any given class, spec and combat situation will almost immediately be known. Any item, talent or trait not a part of that ideal, optimal combination will be worthless and therefore there's essentially no reason for any talent, item or trait that's NOT one of those to exist. In addition, people will want nothing but those ideal pieces and whine endlessly if they can't immediately be decked out in all their most ideal gear. Of course if they COULD immediately get all their ideal gear, they would then whine that they have nothing to do.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Also, to Ion's comment about new traits being introduced: he was referring to new traits on new gear added in new content, with higher item level, that replaces your old gear entirely. We're not planning to add in new traits to existing items, so don't worry about holding onto old Azerite pieces just in case their traits change.


And where exactly is this new gear going to come from? Unless you guys do something with the Mythic+ weekly chest, add Azerite gear to the end of dungeon chest, or introduce another system entirely there's still going to be a lack of items to pick from for many players. Traits don't matter much to me when I'm stuck with 340's. Also, raiding is not your only content type and isn't an option for everyone (which I'm sure would be the response). For the love of all that is good in this world, stop controlling item availability like it is and that M+ is a second class option. How many more people have to complain before you'll listen and do something to improve the situation?
If you want to discourage switching traits and encourage us building out sets for different specs or situations, then please allow us to actually GET AZERITE ARMOR. If I only have one piece from heroic raid, one from normal, and the rest are from mythic 0 dungeons, then it isn't like I have a ton of wonderful choices to make sets from.

It feels like the blizzard design team is making similar mistakes to the legendary system by disallowing us to actually farm for the pieces that we want in any reasonable manner. Please allow us to get the gear from the end of dungeon chest in mythic+ content.

Think of it like trinkets or tier pieces vice non-tier armor for those same slots. If you want to encourage raiding, don't make it impossible to get items that you can equip of a near-equal power level without going to the raid. Make the benefit of going to the raid be the specifically powerful trinkets or the unique traits only found on raid armor.

The current situation is comparable to EN. EN did not have any tier armor. How do you think the community would have reacted if, despite EN not having tier armor, mythic+ content simply couldn't drop head, shoulder, cloak, chest, legs, or gloves? It would feel like we were being cheated. The raid traits are boring and uninteresting to the extreme and should not be touted as any reason to be forced into wearing 340 gear.

I am not opposed to having traits not all be at the exact same power level. As it stands, most dps class-specific traits fall behind the generic traits in damage. I would prefer the traits that actually affect our gameplay or rotation to not just be traps compared to shooting some slowing bolt randomly that doesn't tie into the character at all.
09/26/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Kalaryia
09/26/2018 07:34 PMPosted by Gurbo
The correct fix:

Delete Azerite entirely
Add a 120 talent row with new abilities
Add tier sets
Add JP/Valor/Conquest vendors

DONE

But Blizzard is so arrogant and prideful that we are stuck with this botched system that nobody likes for two more years.


What do class Tier sets have to do with Azerite?

The two are totally unrelated.

Again, if there were still class Tier sets, then the chest, hat and shoulders for those sets would just be Azerite pieces, rather than the chest, hat and shoulders for the armor-type Tier sets being Azerite pieces.


Blizzard said that Azerite Traits were a replacement for Tier sets. They said this explicitly.
09/26/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Reese
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.


This is wrong tho. The issue is that Azerite gear above 340 is super rare. I looked at a grid of my guild and what gear people had equipped. Most of the roster has at least one 340 Azerite piece equipped and the raid has been open for 3+ weeks with Heroic and Normal clears each week.

Its not a balance problem. Its an availability problem. You can't target traits because the gear isn't available to target them.


Azerite gear is absolutely rare for non-raider, M+ types and I pity them. The chest should drop an Azerite piece every week OR regular M+ runs should have a chance to drop Azerite pieces.

But raiders have no sympathy. Azerite pieces are no less rare than any other type of chest, shoulder or hat has been in the past in terms of raid drops. If you think everyone should magically be decked out in Heroic gear after 3 weeks of clearing Heroic, ummm...
The Azerite system is astonishingly bad, and I honestly don't say that to be rude to the developers. However, I cannot express enough how completely uninterested I am in the entire system.

Also, weren't we just recently seeing armor homogenized so that players could play multiple specs with the same gear, so as not to need to carry around multiple sets of gear?

But now you are telling us we should be carrying around multiple sets of Azerite gear for multiple specs? Doesn't that completely go against the purpose of homogenizing armor in the first place?

I could say so much more, but the OP and what I have read posted by so many others have each covered so much of it already.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer


Are you implying that there are upsides to your system? Can you elaborate on those? What makes Azerite fun?
09/26/2018 08:50 PMPosted by Kalaryia
09/26/2018 07:34 PMPosted by Zhiryu
he players that you're going to see with bags full of gear are the players that feel like they have to have the best traits in every scenario.


Maybe that attitude IS THE PROBLEM.

The idea that you have to have the absolute most optimal setup for any given situation at any given moment makes balance, class and item design essentially impossible.

Please stop post in this thread. If you don't want to min-max your character that is fine. Don't do it. No problems. Other people want to. You aren't going to stop them by telling them they're too damn hardcore and need to calm down.

This system is unnecessarily restrictive, for no good reason, to people who wish to play the game at a higher level.

Also you've posted multiple times about the tier set thing having nothing to do with azerite armor and you are simply wrong. Azerite armor was advertised as the new replacement for the removed tier sets.

No harm is going to come to you if the system is improved to allow people to hate their azerite armor a little bit less.
09/26/2018 08:54 PMPosted by Dahlia
09/26/2018 08:48 PMPosted by Kalaryia
...

What do class Tier sets have to do with Azerite?

The two are totally unrelated.

Again, if there were still class Tier sets, then the chest, hat and shoulders for those sets would just be Azerite pieces, rather than the chest, hat and shoulders for the armor-type Tier sets being Azerite pieces.


Blizzard said that Azerite Traits were a replacement for Tier sets. They said this explicitly.


I can tell you why there's no Tier sets in BfA (and it's not because they were out of ideas for class set looks, although they probably were for everything but like... Demon Hunters). It's because they're not only art-ing up new sets for each raid every patch but ALSO art-ing up new sets for each Warfront every patch. Whereas for example in Legion, PvP sets were just recolored raid sets. So the art department probably doesn't have time to do unique Warfront sets (whose top-tier versions are as complex as raid sets, graphically) AND a unique set for every class every patch.
cant wait to finally get a good trait next week out of my cache only for the damage to be reduced by 500%
again
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Few things I'd like to comment on here.

First off, thanks for putting this thread together. Even if phrases like "Worst Itemization in WoW's History" are a bit hyperbolic (seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear), you've summarized a lot of the discussions we've been seeing around the community very well. It really helps us clarify exactly what we need to be focusing on.

I'll speak to each of your points as best as I can:

Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.

The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.

I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.

I mentioned the imbalance between traits before, but just to expand on that: that's why we've focused so much effort into tuning Azerite traits over the past few weeks. With this most recent round of tuning, we think we've gotten most of the really egregious outliers dialed in, but please let us know if there are any you still feel are so good that they're worth huge sacrifices in terms of item level.

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.

And finally, regarding the tuning passes: like I mentioned, we think we've got most of the major outliers dialed in to an acceptable level at this point. There's likely to still be some adjustments here and there, but we don't believe we're going to need another big wave of Azerite trait tuning like you've seen over the last few weeks. To put it another way: if one trait is far and away the best compared to every other option, sure, we should probably do something about that, but we don't expect that to take the form of a widespread tuning pass going forward.

Also, to Ion's comment about new traits being introduced: he was referring to new traits on new gear added in new content, with higher item level, that replaces your old gear entirely. We're not planning to add in new traits to existing items, so don't worry about holding onto old Azerite pieces just in case their traits change.


Sorry but what a completely bull!@#$ response. Stop dodging questions and give straight answers.
I thank you for taking the time to say something about the state of the game. I agree there is lots of hyperbole going around. But there are still problems and the failure is not the communication it's that we feel like were being ignored when we point out these problems.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.


That's not an acceptable solution. Not having an answer now is fine. Working to find a way to fix it is understandable. Calling it a downside to the system is not an acceptable response because that's not the truth of the problem. The truth is that there is no upside to enjoy in regard to this problem, just levels of frustration. Your answer is that players have to be frustrated with a core system? That's not okay.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.


This is also not okay. Your answer to a cost that makes the game less enjoyable and more difficult is "We intended difficulty and frustration"? So you wanted to design clunky and arbitrary restriction? You didn't want us to be able to freely try traits to see how we felt about them in a variety of active situations? You did not want to give us more tools to enjoy the game? Why is this seen as an acceptable situation? Why is designing uninteresting, sticky obstacles intended?

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.

The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.


I'm not in a frenzy about the state of the traits. They are what they are at this point and I'm not going to argue against them. While there is almost no possibility of providing a way to understand actual DPS without simming at this point with Azerite traits, they can be more intuitive. Example specific to Frost Mages.

Whiteout
This Azerite trait gives a damage boost to Ice Lance and a 0.5 cooldown reduction on Frozen Orb, which also increases the number of ice lances you can cast. Instead of adding damage increase the cooldown reduction and have it apply to all targets hit by ice Lance. This combos with the talent Splitting Ice, hitting two targets with Ice Lance, over using Comet Storm. It builds toward a different rotation around faster Frozen Orbs. This also decreases emphasis on Mastery\Glacial Spike\Icicles because Ice Lance does not proc Icicles for Glacial Spike. This encourages a different talent in the 100 slot group and not taking the talent Ebonbolt because it is used to generate Brain Freeze for Glacial Spikes. The increased priority on casting Ice Lances during high movement and Fingers of Frost over everything else also gives an increased emphasis on mobility. It also prioritizes cleave bosses and AOE bosses, and picking up Packed Ice, which increases Ice Lance damage against a target damaged by Frozen Orb. Knowing the damage this setup can deal in a single target vs multiple target would require simming. But a least there is an intuitive understanding with how these different aspects of the spec can change and work together without simming and with a slight change to the existing Azerite trait.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum