Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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So you want to force us into reforging….


lolwut?

He seriously just said the point of the reforging costs is because they DON'T want you reforging on the regular and that if it's not expensive enough to keep people from chain-reforging, they're going to make it more expensive.

And somehow from that answer your take-away is "they want to force us into reforging"?
I just don't like the concept of rental gear. Even if we get to a place where everything is balanced and everything feels good at the end of BFA that all gets thrown out the window in 9.0 just like artifacts did. I would rather the classes feel good all the time baseline instead of being propped up by these rental systems. Why do you have to reinvent the wheel every expansion? Can't things just stay the same sometimes?
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore

Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.


Even if the traits were perfectly balanced, people would still want to target the ones they deem most interesting/best suited for their playstyle, or possibly best suited to specific encounter types.

If the point of Azerite armor is to be a vector of gameplay customization, we should have more control over its acquisition at higher ilevels. Otherwise they're just watered-down Legion Legendaries that take even longer to acquire.
Your response was so condescending it is unreal, on top of that; You mention that you want us to get more sets of Azerite? I don't even have one full set. I STILL HAVE 340 SHOULDERS AFTER A MONTH AND A HALF! How am I supposed to get multiple sets...

You guys are so restrictive to something that doesn't need restricting.

Mythic Plus has to drop Azerite, thats the actual only single option you have to solve this issue.
It's clear at this point that at least the heads of the Dev teams have no clue at all as to how the game plays in it's current state.

With Azerite lockout BS i soon will have to stop raiding as i still haven't gotten new Azerite gear since week 1.

Let it drop in M+ and it will fix ALOT of these problems.
The obvious short term solution to the reforge cost issue is to make Azerite armor outer ring have just two traits: a "zone trait" and a "class trait". If you select class trait it changes with your spec just like tier sets and gear have for many expansions now because at some point Blizzard realized that was a good idea. Why azerite armor doesn't change based on your spec is beyond me.

The long term solution, of course, is to scrap this garbage system and redesign it from the ground up because that is about the only thing that can save azerite armor right now.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular)


It would be great if I had the ability to farm out multiple sets of gear for different situations, through something like m+. Instead, many players will be stuck wearing 340s when the rest of their slots will be 370-385 because the only way to loot Azerite gear is the RNG of Raid or m+/PvP cache.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great.


There's no such thing as farming traits, you get them out of an RNG weekly box, or 2-3 bosses from raids. It doesn't feel great because you literally can't farm them, not because you have to refarm them.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
(seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear)

That was a stat issue, not a gear issue. When fire resistance was removed from the equation, that silliness stopped automatically. I think OP's assessment is accurate.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature.

They are disparate, but equally valid. The dichotomy you mention is a flaw inherent in the design of Azerite Armor; it's not OP's fault for pointing it out.

You also completely sidestepped the "simming is required" comment. OP is absolutely right: this system is brutal on a casual player.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons.

Would like to know "other reasons," because the system currently generates "hamster wheel" levels of grind and feels vapid. My personal feeling is that the system is broken enough that a mid-expac overhaul would be totally warranted and welcome. I've begun actively relying on the weekly reduction in AP cost to avoid putting in the time.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular).

Another good intention that just comes out feeling like crap. I need a mountain of gear to do anything other than one spec in one play style (PVE/PVP). Juggling that many pieces just sucks. It actually feels like more work than Legiondaries, and I don't even have the payoff of cool gameplay interactions. Gimme a prime set, swap trinkets for the role, and call it a day.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
please let us know if there are any you still feel are so good that they're worth huge sacrifices in terms of item level.

"Niuzao's Blessing" on BM Monk is atrociously stat'd. Literally anything is worth more overall. Likewise "Fit to Burst" is too niche; cool effect I won't see often enough (or lacks sufficient return on investment) to warrant taking it.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore


Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.


Dagger in the back performs very well for some classes, but that trait is not fun at all. Why is a mage or warlock throwing daggers? Why was this trait even designed. Do you think a passive damage increase on Details makes the game more fun to play Josh? Wouldn't something like Dreadbite has a X% chance to happen twice, or Demonic Tyrant has a X% chance to have his Demonfire casts hit nearby enemies be significantly more fun and engaging to obtain on a piece of armor?

Forget spec/class fantasy, a mage or warlock throwing a dagger at a target or having a dinosaur attack and bite my target is just ridiculous from a fantasy genre all together.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore

The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.


Forbidden Knowledge, this demo trait just got buffed, but it is still useless. Have you played Uldir? When do I have time to hardcast demonbolt before I have to move out of bad stuff, or target switch? We can't even plan ahead to use these procs because it only lasts 15 seconds.

What if it procs and it's my turn to run to the other room on MOTHER. Even if the add spawns in time for me to start casting my buffed Demonbolt the add I need to burn won't even be alive by the time I get the full length cast off.

Let's take the Demo talent Nether Portal. (an amazingly fun talent thematically that most of us would love to see actually be made viable), Forbidden Knowledge becomes even worse because you could never use this talent and trait together. It simply would waste a large % of your 3 minute cooldown.

Hitting super hard with Demonbolt is interesting - Shadow's bite plays this role. Demo deserves something in place of Forbidden knowledge.
09/26/2018 09:03 PMPosted by Ranulfr
Let it drop in M+ and it will fix ALOT of these problems.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.


My one issue with this is that there are some traits whose gameplay-altering effects are fun and I would like to keep them. For example, I like running Soaring Shield
(which makes my Protection Paladin's Avenger's Shield hit 4 times) in M+, and will pretty much always make sure I have one of those, assuming everything I have is of roughly similar power level. So on hand, good job at the design of this trait; but on the other, it's hard to make sure I keep a high item level armor piece with it...
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.

This part I disagree with, better balancing on the azerite bonuses is fine and all, but that's not the real issue. There are some traits that are always useful and some that are niche*. Even if you were to rework the traits, isn't the point of the Azerite system to give us the ability to pick and choose the traits we need for a given situation?, we need access to multiple pieces to do so.

For me personally the system felt a lot better and more fun when I was still gearing up before M+ and Uldir opened because I had multiple azerite pieces for every slot. I had sets for Disc Dungeon, Disc Raid, Holy Dungeon, Holy Raid, and DPS, all using different azerite gear combinations. Trait imbalance aside, the system felt good, like it was working as it should. And if I needed some specific piece that I didn't had I could just do that dungeon a few times and get it.

But now, well, I'm obviously gonna equip the one 385 piece I got over any of my 340s, and I no longer have a choice on what azerite bonuses I want to use, I'm stuck with whatever I got in that piece. The sentiment for me now that I have the 385 piece is that sure I got a nice upgrade, it's way less fun that now I have one less slot where I can actually customize my character.

*(As Disc for example, no matter hw much you buff Moment of Repose, simply thing is that having some heal component added to Pain Supp is not something that really helps me, or something I would ever want in PvE over say more penance or smite damage)

----
Edit: One more thing, what's the motivation for me to keep running M+? I ran a lot of M0 dungeons to prepare for Uldir and I felt rewarded almost every time I got a new Azerite piece to add to my collection. Right now what difference does it make if I get another 370 cloak, I already have like 5 of them,

If I could get Azerite pieces from M+ runs I would feel much more compelled to run them and push high keys on different dungeons to get the pieces I want (like I did with M0 before M+ and Uldir opened) . Instead, right now there's little benefit for me to do anything more than my weekly +10.
honestly at this point just scaling up legion legendaries and letting us use those would be a better solution than anything you've proposed with azerite thus far or ever will propose and that system was awful too
09/26/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Kalaryia
09/26/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Reese
...

This is wrong tho. The issue is that Azerite gear above 340 is super rare. I looked at a grid of my guild and what gear people had equipped. Most of the roster has at least one 340 Azerite piece equipped and the raid has been open for 3+ weeks with Heroic and Normal clears each week.

Its not a balance problem. Its an availability problem. You can't target traits because the gear isn't available to target them.


Azerite gear is absolutely rare for non-raider, M+ types and I pity them. The chest should drop an Azerite piece every week OR regular M+ runs should have a chance to drop Azerite pieces.

But raiders have no sympathy. Azerite pieces are no less rare than any other type of chest, shoulder or hat has been in the past in terms of raid drops. If you think everyone should magically be decked out in Heroic gear after 3 weeks of clearing Heroic, ummm...


Wrong. Please don't use blanket statements. I'm a raider, and I also think that azerite acquisition is entirely awful.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular)


Conflicting statements. You want to make it hard to obtain (3 weeks now and no Azerite armor from weekly chest) yet you want us to be able to swap items around depending on what traits you need ... you can't have both. Maybe make Azerite armor drop more lucratively so we CAN choose between multiple times depending on if we need to PVP/Play a different spec??????
09/26/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Zoopain
09/26/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Kalaryia
...

Azerite gear is absolutely rare for non-raider, M+ types and I pity them. The chest should drop an Azerite piece every week OR regular M+ runs should have a chance to drop Azerite pieces.

But raiders have no sympathy. Azerite pieces are no less rare than any other type of chest, shoulder or hat has been in the past in terms of raid drops. If you think everyone should magically be decked out in Heroic gear after 3 weeks of clearing Heroic, ummm...


Wrong. Please don't use blanket statements. I'm a raider, and I also think that azerite acquisition is entirely awful.


I'm also a raider. No I don't raid Mythic, but despite what the hivemind around here thinks, most people don't and there's more to the world than Mythic raiders.

But to reiterate... you're wrong.

Emerald Nightmare, the Legion-equivilent of Uldir, had for my class 1 helm, 2 shoulders and 1 chest on the loot table.

Uldir has, for my class, 1 helm, 2 shoulders and 2 chests on the loot table.

Explain how Azerite armor is any more rare than these slots have been before for raiders, again?
The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.


Woah. That is not how I read that at all. We want traits that are both interesting and powerful. For my rogue, I absolutely relish two traits because they felt powerful and interacted with my character in really cool ways: I loved stacking up damage on poison knife because it is something we've never done before and felt powerful. Similarly, the Garrote trait granting an extra combo point feels amazing when you are opening up on something, gets that process started quicker, and synergizes well with Subterfuge just like Tier 20 did.

Blizzard's response? TUNING. You act like you want us to gravitate towards interesting and fun traits, but then you nerf the actual interesting ones so that the !@#$ty "Your attacks and magical spells have a chance to do some physical damage as you fling a knife without any other interaction at the target".

Cool. That would be great, I am a rogue so my class fantasy is killing people. Does this uninspired, completely passive bleed effect synergize with my class' mastery that increases bleed damage, thus being even better for me? Hell no it doesn't.

When the best traits are "You shoot laser beams" and "You gain main stat for playing the game" while you continue to nerf things like "You gain a combo point from this expensive spell" you are justifying completely ignoring your own ideals.

Instead, Fire Mages somehow benefit the most from this physical dagger bleed proc. Where is the sense here?
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.


Then why would you have a huge pool of traits if they are all basically the same in therms of damage?? Because right now having things like Rezan's Fury, Thunderous Blast or Dagger in the Back are pretty much the same thing with a different name.

And I'm talking about the non-spec specific that are the best for almost everyone. The spec specific are the worst.

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