Azerite - Worst Itemization in WoW's History

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Prev 1 24 25 26 118 Next
I regret buying BFA, subbing and lvling a char to 120.

I should have stayed away.

edit: this has also soured my classic wow excitement, I think its better off if I just stop playing blizzard games. They're not fun anymore, its like the devs are your enemy.

i cant spend $$$ on a product that is actively trying to !@#$ me every chance they get.
Few things I'd like to comment on here.

I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.


So the intention is just to force us to grind for multiple of the same item in a lot of cases, that we cannot target whatsoever? I'm absolutely amazed you can explicitly say it's a horrible way to go about it, then attempt to defend it. An 'admittedly' anti-fun mechanic that is forced upon you seems like a good way to keep people interested in the game... right?

A better solution is just to have the item's traits tied to your spec, have a General trait and 3 spec specific ones, when you change specializations... they change to whatever you have set! Genius.

I enjoy playing all specs of the few classes I play, Reforging in it's current form doesn't allow me to do that what so ever and play the game how I want to which is min-maxing my character for even a general purpose such as single target damage. If this is actually your intent could you please confirm it for us so we can go ahead and stop playing now?
TL;DR we know the system is terrible. It sucks to be you. What are you going to do? Leave? We know you won’t so suck it up.
09/27/2018 02:44 AMPosted by Disruptor
I regret buying BFA, subbing and lvling a char to 120.

I should have stayed away.


I notice blizzard has absolutely no response for the large number of people saying this.
The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.


They are not at odds. Until there is relative parity between every trait, we have to sim each piece to find the real answer to "Is this an upgrade?". That does not clash with most traits either being a pure stat boost or a dmg proc. For enh, there are three traits I can think of out of the massive list that provoke even the smallest kind of change in your rotation: Roiling Storm gives you a free Stormstrike at the start of combat, Primal Primer makes you have to think slightly more about what order your filler goes in, and Strength of the Earth punishes you for hitting Rockbiter twice in a row. None of that changes that comparing two pieces by sight is nearly impossible.

I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.


What other reasons? It's a flawed system that seems like it got little in-house testing for fun, not to mention balance. Hey, you worked overtime this week, great job. As a reward, we've hidden your keyboard. Have fun finding it!

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.


You and I both remember Vanilla. Was it not a relief when Dual Spec came along? What logic is there in returning to such an arbitrary system? Just reinforcing the "fantasy" of our specs? Classic is coming soon, let the old, moldy ideas stay in the past rather than punishing us in the present.
RNG is fine in small quantities, but in a game built on character progression, it makes zero sense to feel there is no way to invest time and control your progression path.

In pvp you used to be able to spend currency to buy specific items (maybe replace weakest slot, or to pick up the strongest upgrades).

In pve you used to be able to farm content to eventually get what you needed, now you farm to roll the dice on drops, often resulting in being locked out from content and forced to wait a week (where usually another dice roll is waiting).

Seriously, take some of the RNG out of the game, it is compounding the issues of BfA astronomically, largely because it removes control from the player. The player base doesn't mind grinding, that's part of WoW, what the player base seems to dislike is the mirage that doing certain content rewards specific things.

Another big issue I have with BfA compared to Legion, is that in Legion, when you had your artifact weapon, even before it was unlocked you could see your progression. The path was available (but grayed out), and you had goals and clear ways to get there. Again, bring back clearer methods for character progression, and let the players sink time into more things with predictable rewards.
What an insipid blue response. The devs obviously don't play their own game. Why not make azerite gear farmable in mythic + with a reduced drop rate?
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular).

To say that you failed at executing on that intention would be a profound understatement. To even get ONE set of decent Azerite gear for ONE situation feels like a Herculean achievement right now, and you expect people to have MULTIPLE?

Look, we get it. You're all in on this system and are trying to salvage it the best that you can, but to even BEGIN to do so starts with making Azerite gear MORE AVAILABLE. For the love all that is good and holy, WHY doesn't it have a chance of dropping at the end of a Mythic+ run? Do you REALLY think it's good design to force people to raid to properly experience the main mechanical selling point of BFA, one that is meant to inform the story and gameplay of the entire expansion?

You know some people don't enjoy raiding, right (you do, your own internal metrics repeatedly tell you this)? If people just want to do Mythic+ and/or PvP, LET THEM. Or you know... don't, and continue to wonder why people keep saying your expansion isn't very fun. I could make some vague frustrated threat about losing subscriptions but honestly, you know your own game well enough to keep the lights on at this point... but not well enough to make it fun to play, for some reason.
I just... don't even know anymore with this game. You break my heart Blizzard. Every two years it breaks a bit more.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming.


People want the class functionality and complexity that was stripped out when legendaries and artifacts were removed. They want this because removing it made the game less fun, and also because Blizzard said it would be added back in via Azerite, and then, it wasn't.

If traits returned the gameplay choices that existed before being removed, people would be about as worried about simming as they are for talent choices, which are for the most part reasonably close picks dependent on playstyle preferences - the entire stated goal behind the reconceptualization of talents was to eliminate the exact kind of mathematical foregone conclusions Azerite reintroduced with a vengeance.

09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore

I mentioned the imbalance between traits before, but just to expand on that: that's why we've focused so much effort into tuning Azerite traits over the past few weeks.


So, you're doing immense volumes of mathematical work in order to make this litany of functionally identical, passive traits very similar in numerical output, thereby rendering any choice between them meaningless and leaving the system itself completely without reason to exist. Well dude, I think there are probably better uses of time;

The purpose of the Azerite system's existence is to offer players a meaningful and compelling choice, otherwise the traits would be passives on gear and not... a choice. If they're imbalanced, sims will render the choice a foregone conclusion. If they're perfectly balanced, the choice won't matter.

There is no way to win with this design - but I've got good news! You've solved this problem already! It's called the talent tree, and it works because the choices are about FUNCTION and spec gameplay style, not about passive numerical increases, like the old talents were.

Just gotta wonder at this point, what kind of institutional amnesia is occurring on the Warcraft team that the same problems have to be solved over and over again on the same game?
Can we just take a moment to appreciate the 15% buff to the healer mana Regan trait that had absolutely no value and Is still completely useless.
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Few things I'd like to comment on here.

First off, thanks for putting this thread together. Even if phrases like "Worst Itemization in WoW's History" are a bit hyperbolic (seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear), you've summarized a lot of the discussions we've been seeing around the community very well. It really helps us clarify exactly what we need to be focusing on.

I'll speak to each of your points as best as I can:

Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.

The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.

I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.

I mentioned the imbalance between traits before, but just to expand on that: that's why we've focused so much effort into tuning Azerite traits over the past few weeks. With this most recent round of tuning, we think we've gotten most of the really egregious outliers dialed in, but please let us know if there are any you still feel are so good that they're worth huge sacrifices in terms of item level.

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.

And finally, regarding the tuning passes: like I mentioned, we think we've got most of the major outliers dialed in to an acceptable level at this point. There's likely to still be some adjustments here and there, but we don't believe we're going to need another big wave of Azerite trait tuning like you've seen over the last few weeks. To put it another way: if one trait is far and away the best compared to every other option, sure, we should probably do something about that, but we don't expect that to take the form of a widespread tuning pass going forward.

Also, to Ion's comment about new traits being introduced: he was referring to new traits on new gear added in new content, with higher item level, that replaces your old gear entirely. We're not planning to add in new traits to existing items, so don't worry about holding onto old Azerite pieces just in case their traits change.


I don't even know what to say at this point. Blizzard is so out of touch with their game that this post could be taken as satire.
-The useless spec specific traits
-The boring passive ones that add nothing
-The fact that it's damn near impossible to customize as you see fit with every piece of armor having different traits on top of ilvl and the nauseating amount of rng.

Nothing feels worse than getting a new piece of armor and just sacking it as it has inferior traits or your necklace isn't a high enough level to unlock them.

It's a complete mess guys, why couldn't we just have more regular talents.
Why do I have multiple specs with different niches if you so desperately want to create road blocks that help to prevent me from wanting to actually play said specs? Its all well and good when you talk about easing someone into being a tank that was previously a healer or dps but why do pure dps classes exist if this is how you want it to be? You've literally designed my class to change specs and talents depending on the content and then you design my gear and its reforging system in a way to discourage doing exactly what you designed my class to do. Hello? At least let each spec have its own choice on the pieces of gear and leave in the cost if I want to change traits within that spec

This is just as stupid as spec specific AP was. I guess I'll have to wait another 2 years and another $50 before you change it
09/27/2018 03:15 AMPosted by Rakim
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular).

To say that you failed at executing on that intention would be a profound understatement. To even get ONE set of decent Azerite gear for ONE situation feels like a Herculean achievement right now, and you expect people to have MULTIPLE?

Look, we get it. You're all in on this system and are trying to salvage it the best that you can, but to even BEGIN to do so starts with making Azerite gear MORE AVAILABLE. For the love all that is good and holy, WHY doesn't it have a chance of dropping at the end of a Mythic+ run? Do you REALLY think it's good design to force people to raid to properly experience the main mechanical selling point of BFA, one that is meant to inform the story and gameplay of the entire expansion?

You know some people don't enjoy raiding, right (you do, your own internal metrics repeatedly tell you this)? If people just want to do Mythic+ and/or PvP, LET THEM. Or you know... don't, and continue to wonder why people keep saying your expansion isn't very fun. I could make some vague frustrated threat about losing subscriptions but honestly, you know your own game well enough to keep the lights on at this point... but not well enough to make it fun to play, for some reason.


This x1000 well said.
09/26/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Metaljacx
I know how to fix the issue, kill the Azerite system completely and bring back tier sets. At least now that skills/spells arn't tied to a item(weapon) the system can be dropped with out major re-work on the back end, imo.

The system now is even worse then then legendary system and weapon system. At least the legendary system cause you to actually play your character different, these azertite traits feel useless, i couldn't even tell you what one of them does. New system: What is the top trait, pick that one; I have no idea what it does because it doesn't change my play style just a proc or %damage increase. Unlike the legendary system where I could tell you what each piece does and how your rotation or spells will change with it and some had cool effects on top of that.
At least with the weapon system once you got the skill you kept, this new system takes away from you once you earn something. Just feels awful, and like a new piece isn't an upgrade.

Sometimes it takes losing a system to realize maybe everything wasn't bad about the old system.

P.S.
For the love of a fluid enhancement rotation, can you please bring back doom winds and increase our meal storm back to 150. I don't care if nothign chanegs for enhancement this expansion, legion rotation and play style was on point.


not for me, many of my traits do change gameplay it's just not really worth it to use some of them
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
Few things I'd like to comment on here.

First off, thanks for putting this thread together. Even if phrases like "Worst Itemization in WoW's History" are a bit hyperbolic (seriously, I can't be the only one who remembers farming level 30 dungeons for AQ40 resistance gear), you've summarized a lot of the discussions we've been seeing around the community very well. It really helps us clarify exactly what we need to be focusing on.

I'll speak to each of your points as best as I can:

Regarding targeting specific traits: I think we've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, we believe that's merely a symptom of the imbalance between traits. Ideally, the gap between them isn't so large that you feel it would be hugely beneficial to grind out the perfect set.

The point about traits being "useless and uninteresting" is interesting considering that you also make the point of "every gear change requires simming." These two points are kind of at odds with each other. The way to solve the simming issue would be to make the traits more simplistic in nature. Similarly, making traits with more outside-the-box designs leads to more complicated questions of "is this better or not," which in turn encourages more simming. Either way, it's an interesting challenge, and one we're taking to mind as we move forward with traits in future updates.

I think we agree that re-farming traits doesn't feel great. I don't have a solve for that issue to share today, and to be completely transparent it may be something we simply have to accept as a downside to the system for other reasons. But we agree it can be a bit of a downer.

I mentioned the imbalance between traits before, but just to expand on that: that's why we've focused so much effort into tuning Azerite traits over the past few weeks. With this most recent round of tuning, we think we've gotten most of the really egregious outliers dialed in, but please let us know if there are any you still feel are so good that they're worth huge sacrifices in terms of item level.

As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.

And finally, regarding the tuning passes: like I mentioned, we think we've got most of the major outliers dialed in to an acceptable level at this point. There's likely to still be some adjustments here and there, but we don't believe we're going to need another big wave of Azerite trait tuning like you've seen over the last few weeks. To put it another way: if one trait is far and away the best compared to every other option, sure, we should probably do something about that, but we don't expect that to take the form of a widespread tuning pass going forward.

Also, to Ion's comment about new traits being introduced: he was referring to new traits on new gear added in new content, with higher item level, that replaces your old gear entirely. We're not planning to add in new traits to existing items, so don't worry about holding onto old Azerite pieces just in case their traits change.
this response is so disappointing. The Azerite gear system needs major changes. It is the most disengaging feeling to obtain new gear with higher ilvl that is actually a downgrade. Why is Blizzard ignoring player feedback?
09/26/2018 06:45 PMPosted by Paeldryth
09/26/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Lore
As to the point about reforging costs: these costs get so high because we want the behavior you're describing -- reforging constantly depending on what you're doing -- to be unsustainable. Our intention is that you either build out multiple sets of gear for different situations, or you lean towards traits that work in a variety of roles (even if they're maybe not the absolute best for each in particular). We added the reforging system to help ease cases like, for example, a DPS who suddenly finds themselves needing to transition to being their guild's main tank, not as a means for constantly re-adjusting traits like a second set of talent points. Maybe the current system isn't achieving that, but if it isn't, we're likely to become MORE restrictive on reforging, not less.


Lack of options past M0 seems to be a huge blind spot of the design team's.

We CANT build multiple sets because only a handful of pieces drop from raiding.

The simple solution is to let M+ drop pieces.


I get what you are saying, but I mean they contradict themselves within saying they want myltiple sets utilised. What is the very thing we cant do anymore in M plus? Oh right. Change sets.
It's annoying that Blizz wants it to be "clear which item is an upgrade", but don't actually enforce that philosophy with their Azerite gear. I feel discouraged when I get a piece of Azerite gear that has an item level improvement, but the traits aren't useful for what I'm doing or how I play. On top of that, I have to grind Azerite again to unlock some of the more useful traits.

I don't mind grinding to get something I can keep, because then that makes it worth while. However when I have to grind for something that I'm not ensured next gear drop, I get annoyed and feel like my work was taken away.

More over, when players respec, they'll need to reforge or pick traits that can be used by both specs to ensure they have their best stats. On top of all that, players don't always get greatly beneficial traits. It's just clunky, unfun for players, and already aligns itself against Blizzard's design philosophies.

It's weird to say "I don't want to do this, I want to play something more fun" and the response to be a functional "we're not making it more fun".

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum